And therein lies the issue, despite the holes in the Leave campaign's statements and 'policies', the little Englander mentality wins through. At the end of the day, Britain prefers to remain outside of Europe, despite the obvious benefits.

 

Ever considered YOU may be wrong?

 

I know it is probably only rhetoric but for MPs to defy and ignore the will of the people is tantamount to a dictatorship(if the UK people decide to leave the EU).

This has been tabled by Kinnock the younger and is on alot of newspapers headlines.

 

What exactly is the will of the people? The referendum is only to remain in or leave the EU. There is no statement of what leave actually means! Its not asking if you want controlled immigration, EEA or EFTA membership or a UK bill of rights!

The choice is

Remain with the status quo and a few extra benefits

or

Leave with absolutely know idea what leave really means!


Johnson & Co have completely refused to give any economic plan for post Brexit! The reality is, post Brexit, the Commons will decide the way forward and the most likely (i.e. easiest & safest) solution is to remain in the EEA or EFTA with pretty much the same deal we currently have except we no longer have a vote or veto on the rules that the EU dictates to us!

The problem is the leavers are have tried to turn this into a referendum on immigration and its not!

 

are you suggesting that parliament would defy an Brexit result

 

You should read the link I posted to Margaret Thatcher's views on referendums, it's exactly the opposite.

 

I don't think it's a question of whether you or I are wrong or right, at some level, of course, we both want in or out, for various reasons.


However, all of the independent analysis suggests we will be worse off out of the EU in the short term, less easy to say in the long term. Again, do you really think that everyone else in the world wants the UK to fail? Seems a bit unlikely.


As has already been said, the issues facing the UK are not to do with immigration, it is a minor issue (but one that is evocative, nonetheless and should not be brushed under the carpet), but Leave are fighting this purely on that issue, and sovereignty, but we are already a Sovereign nation, this referendum and our freedom to leave prove that. Our power of veto and the fact we have chosen to accept all that we have also proves it.


Leave is not about sovereignty, we already have it, immigration is not going to break, or make, our country, so what exactly is Leave about? It does make you wonder.

 

I think that what's being discussed is parliament having to interpret the result. I think they're calling it 'Flexit' where we leave the EU but go for a soft landing for the economy by trying to get a deal similar to Norway, for the mid-term.


Can't see that going down to well with the 'close the borders' crowd

 

I missed that - can you repost the link Geezer (save me trawling through 40 pages)

 

That suggestion has been aired in the press!

If there is a Brexit then the government has to abide by the decision and to its best ability withdraw from said arrangements in the best manner to ensure the best transition.

Because there is a minority within parliament of Brexit supporters the press articles are suggesting parliament might ignore the referendum result.

Just the idea being aired by certain politicians is cause to worry?

 

No that is not what is being suggested - read again

 

Absolutely not! Parliament would certainly respect the brexit result and leave the EU!

What happens next is not specified and the public has not been asked what they want post brexit because the leave campaign have not specified an alternative plan!

There are four possible options post brexit:
EEA or EFTA - both are pretty much the status quo anyway but no more voting rights
Free trade deals - Will take years to negotiate and will severely harm the economy until deals have been done.
WTO Rules - No realistically an option as it will destroy the economy!

I don't think Johnson & co really want free trade deals as they know the consequences are not good. They will really want EEA or EFTA deals because they know it the best solution, but if they tell you this, all their arguments fall to pieces and they lose! You have to remember that this is not just about leaving the EU to them, its also political maneuvering to make Johnson prime minister and Gove chancellor!

 

well that makes a mockery of In / Out wording

we had similar in the Scottish referendum if I remember - a "third" way

people really need to focus on what Out really means, if it is being spun as a sort of

"No really means Yes(ish)" than that's rubbish

Out means Out - and we have to renegotiate everything

we had the head of the WTO on the radio this morning, the Brixiters would do well to listen to it

whilst he said that, yes the UK could negotiate a deal, and yes it may even be better - it is a BIG gamble, the KEY thing was not to fall into the trap of thinking that the rest of the world has to negotiate because it is everyone best self interest - he reiterated, as head of the WTO that it simply does not work like that in the real world

and we don't have an empire any more - the global reality is that like the US we are in a period of managed decline

 

behind a paywall

 

yes in many ways this is the nub of it


they are dragging the rest of the UK in on the internal Tory party divisions over Europe - that goes back 30 odd years together with the nature of the leadership succession and future direction of the party

I think history will look vey unfavourably on their antics

 

There was a great piece on Newsnight last night where this was discussed.
Trade deals tend to be done between 'elephants' (by which the guy meant large trading blocks).
It was stated that the UK negotiation position was fairly weak, as we didn't have that much to offer (relatively)


Switzerland did a deal with China, this deal is completely one-sided in favour of Chinese, this is likely to be the problem for us. Hence the 'Flexit' option where we negotiate a Norway type solution.


Either way it is likely to be a bloody messs

 

To Boris most Brexiteers are just useful idiots - helping him achieve is personal objective

 

I know

and what do we get - when these stark realities are pointed out

simple rhetoric and sloganeering

basically - to quote Trump "make Britain great again"

a simply appeal to Empire -- argh if everything in life was that easy

and a Braveheart-ian "cry for freedom" - without ever articulating how we are not free in the first place

 

Martin, here's the link

 

Yes, I get that now, but I certainly didn't get that the first time I viewed it and I don't subscribe

 

get to the article via a google link/search

rather than a direct link - the paywalling works differently (by design rather than a bug - I believe)

so people can google "ft thatcher right referendum"

and they will get to the article

 

yes what is interesting is this passage

"The principled argument she made against a referendum remains as valid today as it was in 1975. Without the protections and definition afforded by a written constitution, referendums, she said, sacrificed parliamentary sovereignty to political expediency. In a system such as Britain's, that threatened minorities by trading liberal democracy for majoritarianism. "Perhaps the late Lord Attlee was right," she observed, "when he said that the referendum was a device of dictators and demagogues.""

in a way I think could be persuaded to leave the EU (or certainly it would make the argument stronger imv) if we had a full written constitution - guaranteeing basic rights (that are currently in part underpinned by our EU membership)

as I said on page two of this thread, people need to understand what rights that they currently have that are backed by EU law

it is easy to witter on about red tape and regulation without spelling out what red tape and regulation they will get rid of, and how that will effect people, Holiday pay, maternity pay etc etc

 

Yes, that is a good point. Michael Moore was on Radio 2 this morning (who I don't particularly like, but....) and he was talking about a lot of the rights we have here which they don't have in the US, do we really want to be like them?


That's not to say that a UK government would get rid of them, but, importantly, there would be no one to stop them if they chose to.

 

yep, one mans red tape / regulation is another mans right - that they probably take for granted

yep - and you have to wonder whether these Brexiter's - who to a man voted against things like the minimum wage and workers rights really have had such a change of heart

 

A point about the USA that we have adopted whilst in the EU is their culture of sueing anyone and everyone when their is a grievance, creating the "where there's blames there's a claim" industry.

Did EU legislation have anything to do with that?

Either way it's a culture I'd like to get rid of. I doubt Brexit would make the blindest bit of difference.

And talking of red tape; My employer is currently stuck employing someone that needs to be let go; put simply their competence doesn't match their wage and requires regular supervision to keep tabs to ensure no f**k ups happen. But due to employment laws you can't just sack someone. It's a long drawn out debacle (although I spotted that he missed a knackered prop UJ last week which is a serious safety defect so he's one more written warning closer to finally leaving).

Would being IN or OUT of the EU change that? Probably not I guess, whenever I look at government press releases when it involves small businesses its often anti-employer. Minimum wage, employee rights, workplace legislation etc and not to forget workplace pensions...I can't even begin to stress how much of a disaster the latter is to any small company...going to the back blame/claim comment there are legal firms already setup and pouncing on employers who have messed it up. And when I mean messed up I mean a small business ran by a average Joe, who left school at 16 being expected to know all of the ins and outs like they were a big multinational corporation! This booby trap remains regardless of Brexit.

Which brings me to my only deciding factor: Would removing another layer of governance (EU) make our own government accountable for railroading us into further demise.

Pitiful times.

 

I'll stop you there, they're not independent. Treasury, IMF, IFS etc are NOT independent

It's makes you wonder because of your absent reasoning abilities. How are we sovereign if we cant control who comes here from a pool of 500 million? How are we sovereign if our highest UK courts are over-ruled? How are we sovereign if we are handed an EU directive we dont like but HAVE to implement? How is mass (mainly Muslim) immigration not going to break our country? Youre a fvcking idiot

 

This can't be true, because Warren as you keep on telling others 'personal insults' means you're losing the argument, or doesn't your own rule apply to you?


Is it true therefore that to be classified as truly independent they have to agree with your position?


BTW which EU country are all these Muslims coming from?

 

Of those three (and there are plenty more), why is the IMF not independent? Is it a UK institution? The IFS criticises everyone. The Treasury, you can have that one. One out of three ain't too good though.....




There are plenty of international laws that all sorts of countries have to adhere, but it does not mean they are not sovereign states. Of course, you can choose to ignore them, like North Korea, or you can choose to do something like, oh I don't know, leave the EU, maybe. We can do that, as a sovereign state.


The fact is, we have chosen to accept those rules for the benefits we get. Doesn't mean we are not a sovereign stated.


Getting upset, perchance? Name calling is so, well, Leave.........

 

Whilst from the employer point of view, it is difficult to sack a bad employee, it also prevents employers just sacking any employees just because they want too. Basically, you can still sack someone with grounds, but you can't sack people because its cheaper than redundancy! In the US, employees have very few rights, and I can imagine a post Brexit UK being run by the conservatives seeking to push US like rules which greatly favour the employer over the employee on the UK.

Its unfortunately often small businesses that treat their employees the worst and abuse employee rights, often out of ignorance, but also sometimes intentionally and its not necessarily a bad thing to make sure employees of small companies also get a fair deal!

I've run a small business for nearly 20 years (actually I just closed it - but for non EU related reasons!). From my perspective, its not the rules per say that cause the biggest problems, its the constant rule changes that are difficult to keep on top of. From my experience its mostly the UK government changing things rather than rules coming from Europe. All most small businesses want is stability in the rules. The rules themselves are the same for everyone, so usually don't really add a competitive disadvantage, but rule changes lead to additional costs or mistakes that do hurt small businesses.

I have to say, my business would not have been possible if the UK were not in the EU. I'm glad I've got out now while it was my choice rather suffering the certain pain of a failing business due to Brexit!

 

Perhaps you would like to explain how mass immigration is going to destroy this country?


Let's take immigrants out of the equation for a second, to simplify it. How do you propose to solve over population? More people equals more pressure on various services, but also means more income in the form of taxation to bolster those services. Assuming a similar amount of people will be on benefits whether they are immigrants or not, it's purely a numbers game. What are you going to do to mitigate that problem?


Now put immigrants back in, what's the difference?


Your comment about Muslims speaks volumes about your real motivations.