Scripture vs. the facts.
17 February 2016, 02:31 PM
#271
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Well, what you hear is what you want tp hear then. Like Mulder, you want to believe. Scripture and the physical world around us are not proof, nor really a relationship, any more than I would be having a relationship with Frodo by reading Lord of the Rings.
As for love making, I never said it was perfunctory, merely that it's basis is a biological need. The fact it is pleasurable is largely irrelevant. It is an urge, and that is why we do it. Underneath all the fancy talk, flowers, orgasms, essentially we are driven to do it by millions of years of evolution. Even the pleasure side of it will be an evolutionary thing, it further encourages the sex to be performed. After all, that is the aim of every gene, to flourish and out compete the others, and they accomplish that through re-production, amongst other things.
It's interesting you say you find physicalism unattractive, I think that is what frightens, or is most unpalatable to theists, that it's all just biology and physics. Surely there must be some higher meaning? Well, there probably isn't, so just enjoy the time you have, there really isn't much of it.
To me is it far more wonderous that hydrogen atoms have managed to figure out they exist. Religion is quite mundane compared to that. Unless of course you go back to where does God come from.......
As for love making, I never said it was perfunctory, merely that it's basis is a biological need. The fact it is pleasurable is largely irrelevant. It is an urge, and that is why we do it. Underneath all the fancy talk, flowers, orgasms, essentially we are driven to do it by millions of years of evolution. Even the pleasure side of it will be an evolutionary thing, it further encourages the sex to be performed. After all, that is the aim of every gene, to flourish and out compete the others, and they accomplish that through re-production, amongst other things.
It's interesting you say you find physicalism unattractive, I think that is what frightens, or is most unpalatable to theists, that it's all just biology and physics. Surely there must be some higher meaning? Well, there probably isn't, so just enjoy the time you have, there really isn't much of it.
To me is it far more wonderous that hydrogen atoms have managed to figure out they exist. Religion is quite mundane compared to that. Unless of course you go back to where does God come from.......
17 February 2016, 02:50 PM
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If it manifests itself in any way shape or form, that someone could truly, objectively say "well, that pretty much seems like heaven to me", provide an example of it.
17 February 2016, 02:55 PM
#273
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P.S; I only tend to hold current information that's relevant to what I'm doing, right now my head is full of information about building walls and roofs, calculations for doors and windows and pulling it all together to form a building in which everything fits as it should. I don't do this philosophy thing anymore, I do stuff not sit around thinking about stuff.
In which case why not stick to talking about walls and roofs, rather than trying to appear knowledgeable about something about which, by your very own admission, you've forgotten about.
You're a walking contradiction Ditchy, and sometimes you either post a load of sh1te which you attempt to pass off as reality, or you attempt to appear smarter than perhaps you really are. We've seen it on other threads where you've bailed when called out on that.
Know your limitations mate. None of us are as smart as we sometimes like to think.
17 February 2016, 03:29 PM
#274
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yes you are correct it could be anything at all - in fact there are an infinite number of things that could exist in the gap - a giant singing cucumber juggling wednesday afternoons is one, along with God
I lack a belief in any of the above, until I see some sort of evidence
so I am not quite sure what point you are making
Last edited by hodgy0_2; 17 February 2016 at 03:47 PM.
17 February 2016, 03:41 PM
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You think, or hope, it does. You live in the real world. You experience it. Please tell me how you have experienced heaven. Not through scripture, that's just an account, someone else's account. What real, physical way have you had any interaction with heaven? I take it you haven't been there, or you would be dead and not posting here.
If it manifests itself in any way shape or form, that someone could truly, objectively say "well, that pretty much seems like heaven to me", provide an example of it.
If it manifests itself in any way shape or form, that someone could truly, objectively say "well, that pretty much seems like heaven to me", provide an example of it.
I see heaven in the prospect of man becoming fully human in the Christ Jesus and the restoration of the Garden. In justice. In wisdom. In beauty. In love.
I see heaven as the prospect of you knowing the truths I express above; the belief that should you seek and knock you too will find joy unspeakable and full of glory beyond the realms of the material.
17 February 2016, 03:59 PM
#276
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the problem is science does not work by rhetoric or assertion (see above)
that's why they are incompatible at a fundamental level
and you have to "dance the dance" to get them to fit
it is obvious you are conflicted in this JT
that's why they are incompatible at a fundamental level
and you have to "dance the dance" to get them to fit
it is obvious you are conflicted in this JT
17 February 2016, 04:05 PM
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Read your first statement and then read your fourth.
17 February 2016, 04:18 PM
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Heaven is atonement with the Father through the Son's death and resurrection. It is the promise of a new earth where there is no suffering. Heaven is the cloak of Christ's perfection and my rebirth via my Master's purifying blood. Heaven is the absolute forgiveness of sins in an unforgiving world. Heaven is the knowledge of knowing from whence we came and to where we will go and how we can lift the curse of the now.
I see heaven in the prospect of man becoming fully human in the Christ Jesus and the restoration of the Garden. In justice. In wisdom. In beauty. In love.
I see heaven as the prospect of you knowing the truths I express above; the belief that should you seek and knock you too will find joy unspeakable and full of glory beyond the realms of the material.
I see heaven in the prospect of man becoming fully human in the Christ Jesus and the restoration of the Garden. In justice. In wisdom. In beauty. In love.
I see heaven as the prospect of you knowing the truths I express above; the belief that should you seek and knock you too will find joy unspeakable and full of glory beyond the realms of the material.
You cannot honestly say you, or anyone else you can speak to, has experienced Heaven. To say otherwise would be deceitful. You have simply described what you hope or think Heaven is. The last statement about it being beyond the realms of material is classic "oh it's beyond your science, so you can't disprove it" line.
17 February 2016, 04:24 PM
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17 February 2016, 04:25 PM
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you did not challenge it at all - you support it
yes you are correct it could be anything at all - in fact there are an infinite number of things that could exist in the gap - a giant singing cucumber juggling wednesday afternoons is one, along with God
I lack a belief in any of the above, until I see some sort of evidence
so I am not quite sure what point you are making
yes you are correct it could be anything at all - in fact there are an infinite number of things that could exist in the gap - a giant singing cucumber juggling wednesday afternoons is one, along with God
I lack a belief in any of the above, until I see some sort of evidence
so I am not quite sure what point you are making
17 February 2016, 04:27 PM
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Not one tangible thing. They all point to a place that exists purely in your imagination, or anyone's imagination.
You cannot honestly say you, or anyone else you can speak to, has experienced Heaven. To say otherwise would be deceitful. You have simply described what you hope or think Heaven is. The last statement about it being beyond the realms of material is classic "oh it's beyond your science, so you can't disprove it" line.
You cannot honestly say you, or anyone else you can speak to, has experienced Heaven. To say otherwise would be deceitful. You have simply described what you hope or think Heaven is. The last statement about it being beyond the realms of material is classic "oh it's beyond your science, so you can't disprove it" line.
17 February 2016, 04:39 PM
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I think that what you should say is that in reality that something may exist, but the the god of the bible doesn't exist. If there is a God, it won't be anything like what is described in the Bible.
17 February 2016, 04:57 PM
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17 February 2016, 05:12 PM
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You can't touch hope, but it exists in that story.
17 February 2016, 05:21 PM
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17 February 2016, 05:33 PM
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I was going to let it slide, but I don't entertain threats.
I haven't tried to psychoanalyse you in my post that you quoted. Your own posts clearly display how random, shallow and evasive you are, about your own contents, but still downright insulting to James. Even Neil had noticed how condescending you are. You think you have James by his bollox due to his airy-fairy beliefs and that makes you the biggest brain of Britain as well as Croatia! LOL what exactly are you on?? 
Regarding that blast in the past, it was other way round because you think that since your mother worked in mental health, that entitles you to self-proclaim as a natural Freud.
You succumbed to personal insults then, and that's what you do with everyone who you may feel a bit challenged with. Sometimes, because of no reason whatsoever. You get your goat bleating when someone talks a bit high-browed; even when it's nothing against you.
So please, don't threaten me with saying 'it didn't work out well, did it' and trying to daunt me with your 'personal insults' trump card. If you start that, it will only show your deepening insecurities, no loss to me.
Again, you're projecting what I actually said to you in my previous post.
Patronising again, eh? Some things never change LOL. Don't try to give made-up reasons that I was skipping your posts hence my lack of understanding of your highly charged 'intellectual' 
remarks. I even waited for you to explain the relevance of that 'peanuts and monkeys' business, which you didn't. That must be, because you can't. That could be because you perhaps only threw it randomly. Perhaps you yourself had no idea whether it made any sense or not. Your performance on this thread has been terribly disjointed and absurd, Ditch.
Now stop giving it large and admit that you're limited with your knowledge and interaction skills. Check out Neil, Hodgy and Geezer's exchanges with JT and learn from it. Then engage in a debate in a reasonable way. Or, continue to display yourself like a fool for everyone to see.
Here, even others can see how out-of-depth you are, on this thread. DD is also asking you to cut the crap and STFU:
With this, I rest my case with you in this instance. Interaction with you here on this thread is hardly stimulating and it's not worth my time.
Regarding that blast in the past, it was other way round because you think that since your mother worked in mental health, that entitles you to self-proclaim as a natural Freud.
You succumbed to personal insults then, and that's what you do with everyone who you may feel a bit challenged with. Sometimes, because of no reason whatsoever. You get your goat bleating when someone talks a bit high-browed; even when it's nothing against you. So please, don't threaten me with saying 'it didn't work out well, did it' and trying to daunt me with your 'personal insults' trump card. If you start that, it will only show your deepening insecurities, no loss to me.
I suggest you stick to what you know because you're a little out of your depth, you got stuck on peanuts. 
This is for you Swati, I should have done this when I first mentioned him but I was busy looking for something else when I came across the first link I posted.
Now this should keep your mind busy for a few years and now you'll see why I struggle to remember all the details from 35yrs ago. Read it, ingest it, travel down each avenue and try and recognise the implications, each aspect is a journey in it'self.
It should also help with your interest in Psychology and show you various avenues there to follow.
Remember to ingest not just skip read and forget, like you seem to do with my posts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato
P.S; I only tend to hold current information that's relevant to what I'm doing, right now my head is full of information about building walls and roofs, calculations for doors and windows and pulling it all together to form a building in which everything fits as it should. I don't do this philosophy thing anymore, I do stuff not sit around thinking about stuff.
Now this should keep your mind busy for a few years and now you'll see why I struggle to remember all the details from 35yrs ago. Read it, ingest it, travel down each avenue and try and recognise the implications, each aspect is a journey in it'self.
It should also help with your interest in Psychology and show you various avenues there to follow.
Remember to ingest not just skip read and forget, like you seem to do with my posts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato
P.S; I only tend to hold current information that's relevant to what I'm doing, right now my head is full of information about building walls and roofs, calculations for doors and windows and pulling it all together to form a building in which everything fits as it should. I don't do this philosophy thing anymore, I do stuff not sit around thinking about stuff.
Don't try to give made-up reasons that I was skipping your posts hence my lack of understanding of your highly charged 'intellectual' remarks. I even waited for you to explain the relevance of that 'peanuts and monkeys' business, which you didn't. That must be, because you can't. That could be because you perhaps only threw it randomly. Perhaps you yourself had no idea whether it made any sense or not. Your performance on this thread has been terribly disjointed and absurd, Ditch.Now stop giving it large and admit that you're limited with your knowledge and interaction skills. Check out Neil, Hodgy and Geezer's exchanges with JT and learn from it. Then engage in a debate in a reasonable way. Or, continue to display yourself like a fool for everyone to see.
Here, even others can see how out-of-depth you are, on this thread. DD is also asking you to cut the crap and STFU:
In which case why not stick to talking about walls and roofs, rather than trying to appear knowledgeable about something about which, by your very own admission, you've forgotten about.
You're a walking contradiction Ditchy, and sometimes you either post a load of sh1te which you attempt to pass off as reality, or you attempt to appear smarter than perhaps you really are. We've seen it on other threads where you've bailed when called out on that.
Know your limitations mate. None of us are as smart as we sometimes like to think.
You're a walking contradiction Ditchy, and sometimes you either post a load of sh1te which you attempt to pass off as reality, or you attempt to appear smarter than perhaps you really are. We've seen it on other threads where you've bailed when called out on that.
Know your limitations mate. None of us are as smart as we sometimes like to think.
17 February 2016, 06:12 PM
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Agreed. As I said earlier on the subject of cross referencing, I can't help but think that if there is a god then it will ultimately be somewhere in the middle of what the various religions say.
17 February 2016, 06:20 PM
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17 February 2016, 06:36 PM
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17 February 2016, 06:42 PM
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Sounds to me like you're at a crossroads, Neil. Choose a path and walk it, that way we can have a proper debate. Or I get to call you brother.
17 February 2016, 07:00 PM
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Not really, my default position would be that there isn't such thing as God and thus Jesus couldn't have been his earthly body. That being said I wouldn't have the audacity to say that as anything other than an opinion given the extent of my own knowledge (The goldylocks enigma being one such example that makes me wonder).
17 February 2016, 08:32 PM
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17 February 2016, 10:00 PM
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Just back from a church meeting where a brother and sister from Open Doors* gave a convicting presentation regarding their mission in northern Iraq. The persecution faced by Christians at the hands of IS is heartbreaking.
One family had had their three year old daughter taken from them by IS as they fled Mosul; apparently the younger the girl the more she can be sold for at the 'market'. Jesus wept. If you've never prayed before I'd ask that you mutter something skywards that acknowledges the evil that is IS and that you ask God to protect that little girl. I thank God that those families can still find hope and consolation in Jesus and shudder to think what their lives would be without Him.
If you'd like to give to the work, there's an opportunity to do so on the webpage.
* http://www.opendoorsuk.org
One family had had their three year old daughter taken from them by IS as they fled Mosul; apparently the younger the girl the more she can be sold for at the 'market'. Jesus wept. If you've never prayed before I'd ask that you mutter something skywards that acknowledges the evil that is IS and that you ask God to protect that little girl. I thank God that those families can still find hope and consolation in Jesus and shudder to think what their lives would be without Him.
If you'd like to give to the work, there's an opportunity to do so on the webpage.
* http://www.opendoorsuk.org
18 February 2016, 02:44 AM
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Just back from a church meeting where a brother and sister from Open Doors* gave a convicting presentation regarding their mission in northern Iraq. The persecution faced by Christians at the hands of IS is heartbreaking.
One family had had their three year old daughter taken from them by IS as they fled Mosul; apparently the younger the girl the more she can be sold for at the 'market'. Jesus wept. If you've never prayed before I'd ask that you mutter something skywards that acknowledges the evil that is IS and that you ask God to protect that little girl. I thank God that those families can still find hope and consolation in Jesus and shudder to think what their lives would be without Him.
If you'd like to give to the work, there's an opportunity to do so on the webpage.
* http://www.opendoorsuk.org
One family had had their three year old daughter taken from them by IS as they fled Mosul; apparently the younger the girl the more she can be sold for at the 'market'. Jesus wept. If you've never prayed before I'd ask that you mutter something skywards that acknowledges the evil that is IS and that you ask God to protect that little girl. I thank God that those families can still find hope and consolation in Jesus and shudder to think what their lives would be without Him.
If you'd like to give to the work, there's an opportunity to do so on the webpage.
* http://www.opendoorsuk.org
To be honest - people of all faiths, backgrounds and nationalities are being persecuted by IS in Iraq and overseas (even their own followers).
I just looked at the Opendoors website and was very disappointed at their homepage.
Their strap line is "60 years of serving persecuted Christians" - which sounds great.
Then you read their About Us at the bottom of the page - that is the real disappointment.
Their first stated job is delivering bibles! The people they are serving need a bit more help than a bible!
I hope they do a lot more than this, in reality and that they help in more constructive ways than bible distribution.
Cheers
Steve
Last edited by steve05wrx; 18 February 2016 at 02:45 AM.
18 February 2016, 07:56 AM
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I just looked at the Opendoors website and was very disappointed at their homepage.
Their strap line is "60 years of serving persecuted Christians" - which sounds great.
Then you read their About Us at the bottom of the page - that is the real disappointment.
Their first stated job is delivering bibles! The people they are serving need a bit more help than a bible!
I hope they do a lot more than this, in reality and that they help in more constructive ways than bible distribution.
Cheers
Steve
Their strap line is "60 years of serving persecuted Christians" - which sounds great.
Then you read their About Us at the bottom of the page - that is the real disappointment.
Their first stated job is delivering bibles! The people they are serving need a bit more help than a bible!
I hope they do a lot more than this, in reality and that they help in more constructive ways than bible distribution.
Cheers
Steve
Open Doors can't be everything to everyone, but they can attend to the body of Christ. In that way they help to shore up the foundation of world.