hodgy0_2

ah I see, yes a "secret" stash of adblue, on an otherwise non adblue equipped car

that does seem like a high risk strategy, and quite sneaky if true

David Lock

So if the yanks take out these devices what happens if engine still exceeds the very strict USA NOx limits?

dl

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

I don't think that's the case; Journos probably making a screw up of their reporting because they have no clue. Much like the yanks calling it a "defeat device" when all it is software programming.

What's probably happening is Adblue equipped cars are injecting more Adblue when it senses its being tested, along with various other measure; i.e increased EGR, different injection timings etc.

Cars without an adblue system won't have a hidden tank of fluid (ignoring early PSA engined cars with their hidden ELOYS tanks which is a known service item)

dpb

Honestly, Who'd have a diesel car

Again anyway

jonc

The government and the EU started this off by encouraging everyone and manufacturers to move to vehicles that emit less CO2 with increasingly stricter regulations on manufacturers and higher taxes for high CO2 emitting vehicles. We were lead to believe that diesels were the answer and were more environmentally friendly. So who is going to decide which is more important, global warming or our health? Either way, I'm guessing the government will "fix" this with another tax. Will we see the introduction of VED based on NOx much like CO2?

Petem95

Agree, it can't be right that they've got hidden urea tanks, so assuming it's down to ignition timing etc, this means they won't be able to resolve this issue through software updates as if that would work they would've done that in the first place.

Basically think in summary these cars will just emit much higher amounts of nitrogen oxide than claimed, so not sure where that leaves them legally. In the US owners may sue for their money back on the purchase price potentially I'm guessing?

lozgti1

Remember when Skoda allegedly chipped an Octavia vrs mark 1 before they gave it to Autocar for a test...I still bought one ....

andy97

iTrader: (1)

The type of engine used in many of the audi skoda vw etc have been sold in the UK.

Also the investigation is widening to their petrol cars aswell.

There is going to be a massive shakeup of the transport industry over this, much lower emissions and non emission vehicles will be selling like hotcakes

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

It depends what you mean by resolve. They could certainly bring down the NOx emissions (how else would the cheat software work to begin with?), but only by dramatically compromising the performance of the cars, which was just as big a selling point for many customers as the low emission (huuuuuuge torque, etc). Since the EPA has more clout than Joe Consumer, that's where they'll end up liable for suing, and on a massive scale.

I predict many years of very tightly-clenched cheeks in VW boardrooms around the world

hodgy0_2

essentially a dual MAP

hodgy0_2

it seems odd to seemingly blame the Government and the EU - when at the moment the focus is on the much stricter US emissions

and anyway our Government and the EU aren't acting alone - Europe is not the only region to demand emission standards in vehicles

LSherratt

iTrader: (1)

How many people honestly care about emissions from a car? I bet it's only a small minority that actually care anyway. Regardless, better help save the planet for future generations and all that jazz .

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

Yes there is various ways to reduce Nox....changing injection timing, increasing EGR, reducing boost and/or airflow (closing the intake throttle), using more adaptive sensing on existing sensor (most diesels these days have an oxygen sensor, but often still run open-loop without using it), as well as retrofitting more sensors.

There is also the existence of NOx sensors, which are fitted to modern direct injected petrol. I could hazard a guess that due to the long term unreliability of these sensors, the ECU software largely ignores this sensor unless it thinks it needs to use it (like when it thinks it being tested by a government/pollution body )

Also there is a NOx storage catalyst which is like a secondary cat; both modern petrols and diesels have it. Its fitted in addition to the primary catalyst (although maybe in within the same canister) and is a bit different to a normal cat in that when its not at operating temperature it has the ability to store NOx and then convert it later once it does reach temperature (like driving up a hill). Toyota have been fitting these since 2005 on their D-4 engines, think VW was around the same time of their FSi engines, they came about much later on the TDi engines.

It could be possible to retrofit this on cars without a NSR cat fitted, and on cars with one fitted would just need some software changes to increase exhaust temps, or the increased use of a reductant (Adblue)....at the expense of fuel economy...

We could also change our fuel too: You know that blended bio-products in our diesel increases NOx pollution?

Alan Jeffery

It's ok lads, I have a huge stock of cats for all you worried ones who want to make sure your Scoobies are emissions friendly..

Yeh, right...

dpb

Could be the end of diesels for roadcars for good .
The only benefit was the torque as far as I could make out

Alan Jeffery

I doubt that to be honest. This is all about tiny details, very small percentages and isn't the difference between outrageously polluting and clean as a mountain spring like the press are making out. The Yanks HATE VW and always have, as they aren't Ford or GM. They haven't yet forgiven the Germans for importing Herbie. They also aren't into diesels, as petrol is so cheap over there, simple as.
It's Diesel Particle Filters that make me laugh. Like any filter, they filter out crap. They then hang on to the crap until they clog up, then they go into "Regen" when the sensors say it's "full". The filter is then encouraged to overheat, and burn off the clag, when the dealers tell you to "run them over 60". The net result is that they run around cities collecting dirty particles, then go dump them out in the countryside! Oh, thanks chaps, but same planet of course.
Diesels are going to be around for ages yet, or at least until fuel cells become the norm.

c_maguire

Cue the stampede of previously smug tree-huggers claiming P.T.S.D. after this life-changing revelation about their transport. Requiring outrageous levels of compo, obviously.
Do U.S lawyers ever get a bad break?
I actually feel sympathy for V.W.
The way this daft world operates now it isn't impossible that this could bust them. They'll benefit if it turns out everyone is at it.

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

You have yet to experience the unreliability of the direct injected petrol engine (and pretty much all new petrol engines will have this).

For the uneducated and in simplified laymen's terms; it a common rail diesel that runs on petrol.

Paben

iTrader: (5)

The typical Impreza owner on here couldn't give a flying f**k about emissions, I bet more than 50% run decatted exhaust systems!

tony de wonderful

Definition 1 implies it doesn't need to be mechanical or electrical to qualify as a 'device', and a 2nd ECU map - secretly added to defeat emission tests - can qualify certainly as a 'crafty scheme'.

Perhaps someone at VW thought they could play the lawyer if caught and say they 'just' modified software as if software isn't real or anything (like planes don't fly on it!). Would be interesting to see who signed off on it because it surely cost a few quid to develop the algorithms to sense when the car was being tested and not on the road. Maybe they really deluded themselves into thinking they were bending rules and not breaking them?

wrx300scooby

That's the CEO gone, who's next?

Alan Jeffery

They are all at something, and where does it end? VW were tasked with meeting emission targets as tested. They hit the test targets, so what's the problem? It's like your driving instructor teaches you how to pass your driving test, but omits to tell you how to drive on motorways. Oh, sorry, that's what always happens isn't it?

As I say, this is all guff. Like the Prius test done on Top Gear proved that an M3 is actually better on fuel when tested in a certain way.

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

Would be interesting if Ferdinand Piech gets interviewed on this; The guy is an automotive genius. And probably the shrewdest businessman in the automotive sector.

That said, alot of this scandal may have happened under Piech's watch before Winterkorn pushed him out to pasture.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Personally, I'd love to see VW go to the wall.

Arrogant, built a dynasty on lies and such.

JGlanzaV

iTrader: (3)

Alan, I need an "MOT" map, you could be as big as VW soon!

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

Just like the British Leyland Empire?

I recently read up on the Speke no.2 plant; It cost over £10million (about £150million in today's money) was "state of the art" for its era, designed for 24hour production and 100,000 cars a year. It never once ran a 24 hour shift, effectively halving its output, and it closed after just eight years!

I'd have thought car manufacturers have come a long way since then!

jonc

According to this, VW reduce the NOx emissions by using more fuel.

Alan Jeffery

Consider it done.

jonc

Sure, but there are potentially 11 million affected vehicles, of which the US makes up small proportion whereas over 50% of cars in the UK are diesels with potentially millions affected as the focus will invariably move to the UK. Adding to that they are also now saying petrol engines may also be affected.

hodgy0_2

Maybe it was a case of a vicious circle between ever greater emission standards and the main manufactures increasingly unrealistic claims to meet and exceed them

Especially in the company car market - where paper claims mean a lot, financially speaking

VAG executives must have known their competition were probably doing it so it was either play the game or lose market share