Stop giving your life to Jesus!
10 July 2015, 05:17 PM
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10 July 2015, 07:01 PM
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Death preceded the fall of man?
The simplest explanation is a larger cortex through evolutionary pressure. Or you can tie yourself in knots and talk about sin.
The simplest explanation is a larger cortex through evolutionary pressure. Or you can tie yourself in knots and talk about sin.
10 July 2015, 07:54 PM
#243
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Explain "larger cortex through evolutionary pressure" to my mother or a five year old or peasants in China or Palestinian goat herders in 2500 BC. Scientism doesn't allow for the whole of humanity, it doesn't deal with the spiritual and it doesn't span the ages. The story of the fall does and its depths can be explored according to the gifts of the explorer.
10 July 2015, 09:16 PM
#245
10 July 2015, 10:02 PM
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Does this offer consolation to the poor in spirit? And what comfort to those who mourn? And what promise to the meek? How will those who hunger and thirst for righteousness be filled? How will the merciful be shown mercy? Because of a large cortex? The pure in heart, will they be denied God because of scientism's stranglehold on 'truth'? And the peacemakers and the persecuted; should they cash in the kingdom of heaven for some barren, physicalist mantra?
10 July 2015, 10:19 PM
#247
Brian *** surmised life including humans and generally everything in the Universe was a transition from chaos to order. The abundant mass and energy in the universe converging to produce stars, planets and ultimately life. A logical and traceable lineage from one to the other.
Last edited by Maz; 10 July 2015 at 10:25 PM.
10 July 2015, 10:21 PM
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I don't understand what poor in spirit means as I don't believe we have one. I do believe in evidence based treatment of psychiatric illness based on agreed classifications and the results of randomised controlled trials. Those who mourn might be best not having false comfort from believing something that isn't true. There is trial evidence they do less well with early counselling. Few talk about meekness or mercy much outside church. The heart is a pump. Not sure an imaginary kingdom can be cashed in except to others who believe in it too.
I feel enriched by abandoning the imaginary.
I feel enriched by abandoning the imaginary.
10 July 2015, 10:28 PM
#249
Explain "larger cortex through evolutionary pressure" to my mother or a five year old or peasants in China or Palestinian goat herders in 2500 BC. Scientism doesn't allow for the whole of humanity, it doesn't deal with the spiritual and it doesn't span the ages. The story of the fall does and its depths can be explored according to the gifts of the explorer.
https://www.scoobynet.com/892736-is-...l#post10090183
10 July 2015, 10:29 PM
#250
I don't understand what poor in spirit means as I don't believe we have one. I do believe in evidence based treatment of psychiatric illness based on agreed classifications and the results of randomised controlled trials. Those who mourn might be best not having false comfort from believing something that isn't true. There is trial evidence they do less well with early counselling. Few talk about meekness or mercy much outside church. The heart is a pump. Not sure an imaginary kingdom can be cashed in except to others who believe in it too.
I feel enriched by abandoning the imaginary.
I feel enriched by abandoning the imaginary.
10 July 2015, 10:37 PM
#251
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We're all searching or trying to find answers in our own ways.
https://www.scoobynet.com/892736-is-...l#post10090183
https://www.scoobynet.com/892736-is-...l#post10090183
https://www.scoobynet.com/917104-chr...l#post10392363
11 July 2015, 07:19 AM
#256
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I don't understand what poor in spirit means as I don't believe we have one. I do believe in evidence based treatment of psychiatric illness based on agreed classifications and the results of randomised controlled trials. Those who mourn might be best not having false comfort from believing something that isn't true. There is trial evidence they do less well with early counselling. Few talk about meekness or mercy much outside church. The heart is a pump. Not sure an imaginary kingdom can be cashed in except to others who believe in it too.
I feel enriched by abandoning the imaginary.
I feel enriched by abandoning the imaginary.
I don't think I've ever believed but felt relieved when I could come out of the closet as an atheist (or at least a non believer of any religion) to wider family and community etc. In other words when invited to some kind of gathering at a place of worship I now just politely decline and state confidently that I do not believe in my own or any other religion.
I'll attend funerals, as a mark of respect to the person. I'll attend weddings but will sit outside for most of it.
Not sure what to do with my children though.
Though I'm not a believer and have had my doubts from an early age I wonder if my morality and inner code have come from being fed the concept of god and his punishment as a child. So I wonder whether this same moral code and can transferred to my children without the idea of heaven and hell/reincarnation or the like.
I suppose I'm asking the question does all morality ultimately come from the concept of a god who will punish?
11 July 2015, 07:32 AM
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I don't think I've ever believed but felt relieved when I could come out of the closet as an atheist (or at least a non believer of any religion) to wider family and community etc. In other words when invited to some kind of gathering at a place of worship I now just politely decline and state confidently that I do not believe in my own or any other religion.
I'll attend funerals, as a mark of respect to the person. I'll attend weddings but will sit outside for most of it.
Not sure what to do with my children though.
Though I'm not a believer and have had my doubts from an early age I wonder if my morality and inner code have come from being fed the concept of god and his punishment as a child. So I wonder whether this same moral code and can transferred to my children without the idea of heaven and hell/reincarnation or the like.
I suppose I'm asking the question does all morality ultimately come from the concept of a god who will punish?
I'll attend funerals, as a mark of respect to the person. I'll attend weddings but will sit outside for most of it.
Not sure what to do with my children though.
Though I'm not a believer and have had my doubts from an early age I wonder if my morality and inner code have come from being fed the concept of god and his punishment as a child. So I wonder whether this same moral code and can transferred to my children without the idea of heaven and hell/reincarnation or the like.
I suppose I'm asking the question does all morality ultimately come from the concept of a god who will punish?
11 July 2015, 07:45 AM
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11 July 2015, 07:50 AM
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I don't think I've ever believed but felt relieved when I could come out of the closet as an atheist (or at least a non believer of any religion) to wider family and community etc. In other words when invited to some kind of gathering at a place of worship I now just politely decline and state confidently that I do not believe in my own or any other religion.
I'll attend funerals, as a mark of respect to the person. I'll attend weddings but will sit outside for most of it.
Not sure what to do with my children though.
Though I'm not a believer and have had my doubts from an early age I wonder if my morality and inner code have come from being fed the concept of god and his punishment as a child. So I wonder whether this same moral code and can transferred to my children without the idea of heaven and hell/reincarnation or the like.
I suppose I'm asking the question does all morality ultimately come from the concept of a god who will punish?
I'll attend funerals, as a mark of respect to the person. I'll attend weddings but will sit outside for most of it.
Not sure what to do with my children though.
Though I'm not a believer and have had my doubts from an early age I wonder if my morality and inner code have come from being fed the concept of god and his punishment as a child. So I wonder whether this same moral code and can transferred to my children without the idea of heaven and hell/reincarnation or the like.
I suppose I'm asking the question does all morality ultimately come from the concept of a god who will punish?
http://biblehub.com/1_john/4-8.htm
The reductionist cannot love.
Last edited by JTaylor; 11 July 2015 at 08:05 AM.
11 July 2015, 08:00 AM
#260
I don't think I've ever believed but felt relieved when I could come out of the closet as an atheist (or at least a non believer of any religion) to wider family and community etc. In other words when invited to some kind of gathering at a place of worship I now just politely decline and state confidently that I do not believe in my own or any other religion.
I'll attend funerals, as a mark of respect to the person. I'll attend weddings but will sit outside for most of it.
Not sure what to do with my children though.
Though I'm not a believer and have had my doubts from an early age I wonder if my morality and inner code have come from being fed the concept of god and his punishment as a child. So I wonder whether this same moral code and can transferred to my children without the idea of heaven and hell/reincarnation or the like.
I suppose I'm asking the question does all morality ultimately come from the concept of a god who will punish?
I'll attend funerals, as a mark of respect to the person. I'll attend weddings but will sit outside for most of it.
Not sure what to do with my children though.
Though I'm not a believer and have had my doubts from an early age I wonder if my morality and inner code have come from being fed the concept of god and his punishment as a child. So I wonder whether this same moral code and can transferred to my children without the idea of heaven and hell/reincarnation or the like.
I suppose I'm asking the question does all morality ultimately come from the concept of a god who will punish?
I now have a bit of a dilemma with my 8yr old son as the god botherer's have got their claws into him via his Beavers group (pre cub scouts) He's in a well known local choir (loves singing and musical instruments) and now want's to be baptised, which has been arranged.
I'm really not comfortable with him being fed this bollocks, but don't want to shatter his innocence (tooth fairy, Father Christmas etc) but I suppose it's just his natural curiosity and the fact that he's surrounded by it and has been singing at Church when there are christenings etc.
I'm just trying to keep the peace and not upset him really, only problem is at some point, he in much the same way I did will discover it's all bollocks and probably want to know why as his father I let him get sucked into it.
So for now at least I'm just biding my time until he's a little older and hoping he doesn't go full blown god botherer.
11 July 2015, 08:47 AM
#261
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That sounds just like me.
I now have a bit of a dilemma with my 8yr old son as the god botherer's have got their claws into him via his Beavers group (pre cub scouts) He's in a well known local choir (loves singing and musical instruments) and now want's to be baptised, which has been arranged.
I'm really not comfortable with him being fed this bollocks, but don't want to shatter his innocence (tooth fairy, Father Christmas etc) but I suppose it's just his natural curiosity and the fact that he's surrounded by it and has been singing at Church when there are christenings etc.
I'm just trying to keep the peace and not upset him really, only problem is at some point, he in much the same way I did will discover it's all bollocks and probably want to know why as his father I let him get sucked into it.
So for now at least I'm just biding my time until he's a little older and hoping he doesn't go full blown god botherer.
I now have a bit of a dilemma with my 8yr old son as the god botherer's have got their claws into him via his Beavers group (pre cub scouts) He's in a well known local choir (loves singing and musical instruments) and now want's to be baptised, which has been arranged.
I'm really not comfortable with him being fed this bollocks, but don't want to shatter his innocence (tooth fairy, Father Christmas etc) but I suppose it's just his natural curiosity and the fact that he's surrounded by it and has been singing at Church when there are christenings etc.
I'm just trying to keep the peace and not upset him really, only problem is at some point, he in much the same way I did will discover it's all bollocks and probably want to know why as his father I let him get sucked into it.
So for now at least I'm just biding my time until he's a little older and hoping he doesn't go full blown god botherer.
Last edited by JTaylor; 11 July 2015 at 08:59 AM.
11 July 2015, 08:56 AM
#262
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Teach him to think for himself. Trouble is with at least weekly group influence from faith types using established reinforcement techniques you will have to work very hard indeed.
Peer pressure had me confirmed at 12 (after early christening). Then the charismatics convinced me that was all nought and I was later baptised.
My father and I didn't have much contact through my teens. He is an atheist but never tried to influence me. I thought he needed Jesus.
What contributed to me realising I was in cloud cookoo land was exposure to A&E whilst a student.
Religious and cultural beliefs are excluded from the definition of delusions in psychiatry. That was interesting to discover...
Peer pressure had me confirmed at 12 (after early christening). Then the charismatics convinced me that was all nought and I was later baptised.
My father and I didn't have much contact through my teens. He is an atheist but never tried to influence me. I thought he needed Jesus.
What contributed to me realising I was in cloud cookoo land was exposure to A&E whilst a student.
Religious and cultural beliefs are excluded from the definition of delusions in psychiatry. That was interesting to discover...
Last edited by john banks; 11 July 2015 at 09:05 AM.
11 July 2015, 08:58 AM
#263
This thread reminds me of YouTube videos I've watched where Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens try to engage in logical debate with religious nutters. Every single time, the religious nutters just end up coming across as gullible, brain-washed, crazy, or very stupid.
JT - I'm going to be frank. I sincerely hope you don't truly believe the nauseating, self-righteous rubbish you've written on this thread. But if you do, you have a mental illness and should seek counselling immediately. I'm serious! You are beyond deluded and I find it deeply worrying that there are so many others living amongst us who most probably share very similar views to you.
JT - I'm going to be frank. I sincerely hope you don't truly believe the nauseating, self-righteous rubbish you've written on this thread. But if you do, you have a mental illness and should seek counselling immediately. I'm serious! You are beyond deluded and I find it deeply worrying that there are so many others living amongst us who most probably share very similar views to you.
"The first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will turn you into an atheist, but at the bottom of the glass God is waiting for you" - Werner Heisenberg.
11 July 2015, 09:00 AM
#264
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Well I have that issue too,
I do not push my views onto them, as I said on another thread my son was a choristers at Jesus College Cambridge for 5 odd years
They are free to make their own mind up,
However, it is my view that the belief in all this rubbish is to fill a mental void, some emotional deficiency
In food/nutritional terms it is like a vitamin supplement, but as most nutritionists will tell you a well balanced diet negates the need for additional supplements
So you have to trust your ability as a human, to provide the right framework for your children emotional/mental growth
I know it works, I have 5 beautiful children, my Wife has 5 brothers and sister - all fantastic, kind, emphatic generous people (along with her mother and father & there respective partners)
I have 4 brothers and sisters, I see the youngest two most weeks, the oldest of whom has 3 delightful children
In short I am blessed with being immersed in a very large loving supportive family (and I have not even included our large circle of family friends - and their children, all of whom are like cousins to my 5)
Not one of those people above is religious, not one (well maybe my father-in-law second wife)- but that is a very old catholic guilt thing that is quite difficult to shake off
And we all get on, love and support each, no one outsources their humanity to the supernatural
No religion to spoil it
The point is, religion is a con, in reality it is nothing more than a cult, with strict non negotiable entry criteria
Trust yourself, not the supernatural
I do not push my views onto them, as I said on another thread my son was a choristers at Jesus College Cambridge for 5 odd years
They are free to make their own mind up,
However, it is my view that the belief in all this rubbish is to fill a mental void, some emotional deficiency
In food/nutritional terms it is like a vitamin supplement, but as most nutritionists will tell you a well balanced diet negates the need for additional supplements
So you have to trust your ability as a human, to provide the right framework for your children emotional/mental growth
I know it works, I have 5 beautiful children, my Wife has 5 brothers and sister - all fantastic, kind, emphatic generous people (along with her mother and father & there respective partners)
I have 4 brothers and sisters, I see the youngest two most weeks, the oldest of whom has 3 delightful children
In short I am blessed with being immersed in a very large loving supportive family (and I have not even included our large circle of family friends - and their children, all of whom are like cousins to my 5)
Not one of those people above is religious, not one (well maybe my father-in-law second wife)- but that is a very old catholic guilt thing that is quite difficult to shake off
And we all get on, love and support each, no one outsources their humanity to the supernatural
No religion to spoil it
The point is, religion is a con, in reality it is nothing more than a cult, with strict non negotiable entry criteria
Trust yourself, not the supernatural
Last edited by hodgy0_2; 11 July 2015 at 09:05 AM.
11 July 2015, 09:10 AM
#265
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That sounds just like me.
I now have a bit of a dilemma with my 8yr old son as the god botherer's have got their claws into him via his Beavers group (pre cub scouts) He's in a well known local choir (loves singing and musical instruments) and now want's to be baptised, which has been arranged.
I'm really not comfortable with him being fed this bollocks, but don't want to shatter his innocence (tooth fairy, Father Christmas etc) but I suppose it's just his natural curiosity and the fact that he's surrounded by it and has been singing at Church when there are christenings etc.
I'm just trying to keep the peace and not upset him really, only problem is at some point, he in much the same way I did will discover it's all bollocks and probably want to know why as his father I let him get sucked into it.
So for now at least I'm just biding my time until he's a little older and hoping he doesn't go full blown god botherer.
I now have a bit of a dilemma with my 8yr old son as the god botherer's have got their claws into him via his Beavers group (pre cub scouts) He's in a well known local choir (loves singing and musical instruments) and now want's to be baptised, which has been arranged.
I'm really not comfortable with him being fed this bollocks, but don't want to shatter his innocence (tooth fairy, Father Christmas etc) but I suppose it's just his natural curiosity and the fact that he's surrounded by it and has been singing at Church when there are christenings etc.
I'm just trying to keep the peace and not upset him really, only problem is at some point, he in much the same way I did will discover it's all bollocks and probably want to know why as his father I let him get sucked into it.
So for now at least I'm just biding my time until he's a little older and hoping he doesn't go full blown god botherer.
All that claptrap, all that strictness and shouting at them - and run by the two oddest people I have met
He soon became a bit embarrassed about it all tbh
But conversely loved being a chorister, loved the music, loved the singing and the friendships he made
And was sad to leave -although has left him with a strong desire to go to Cambridge university
Last edited by hodgy0_2; 11 July 2015 at 09:15 AM.
11 July 2015, 09:41 AM
#266
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Well I have that issue too,
I do not push my views onto them, as I said on another thread my son was a choristers at Jesus College Cambridge for 5 odd years
They are free to make their own mind up,
However, it is my view that the belief in all this rubbish is to fill a mental void, some emotional deficiency
In food/nutritional terms it is like a vitamin supplement, but as most nutritionists will tell you a well balanced diet negates the need for additional supplements
So you have to trust your ability as a human, to provide the right framework for your children emotional/mental growth
I know it works, I have 5 beautiful children, my Wife has 5 brothers and sister - all fantastic, kind, emphatic generous people (along with her mother and father & there respective partners)
I have 4 brothers and sisters, I see the youngest two most weeks, the oldest of whom has 3 delightful children
In short I am blessed with being immersed in a very large loving supportive family (and I have not even included our large circle of family friends - and their children, all of whom are like cousins to my 5)
Not one of those people above is religious, not one (well maybe my father-in-law second wife)- but that is a very old catholic guilt thing that is quite difficult to shake off
And we all get on, love and support each, no one outsources their humanity to the supernatural
No religion to spoil it
The point is, religion is a con, in reality it is nothing more than a cult, with strict non negotiable entry criteria
Trust yourself, not the supernatural
I do not push my views onto them, as I said on another thread my son was a choristers at Jesus College Cambridge for 5 odd years
They are free to make their own mind up,
However, it is my view that the belief in all this rubbish is to fill a mental void, some emotional deficiency
In food/nutritional terms it is like a vitamin supplement, but as most nutritionists will tell you a well balanced diet negates the need for additional supplements
So you have to trust your ability as a human, to provide the right framework for your children emotional/mental growth
I know it works, I have 5 beautiful children, my Wife has 5 brothers and sister - all fantastic, kind, emphatic generous people (along with her mother and father & there respective partners)
I have 4 brothers and sisters, I see the youngest two most weeks, the oldest of whom has 3 delightful children
In short I am blessed with being immersed in a very large loving supportive family (and I have not even included our large circle of family friends - and their children, all of whom are like cousins to my 5)
Not one of those people above is religious, not one (well maybe my father-in-law second wife)- but that is a very old catholic guilt thing that is quite difficult to shake off
And we all get on, love and support each, no one outsources their humanity to the supernatural
No religion to spoil it
The point is, religion is a con, in reality it is nothing more than a cult, with strict non negotiable entry criteria
Trust yourself, not the supernatural
11 July 2015, 09:45 AM
#267
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It's astonishing just how smart some of the people in history have been who continued to believe in God despite their genius-level intellects:
"The first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will turn you into an atheist, but at the bottom of the glass God is waiting for you" - Werner Heisenberg.
"The first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will turn you into an atheist, but at the bottom of the glass God is waiting for you" - Werner Heisenberg.
https://www.scoobynet.com/non-scooby...ultiverse.html
11 July 2015, 09:47 AM
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My son (6) goes to Beavers too; minimal God input, they make stuff, take long walks to the beach, go to farms and so on; we must be lucky I think.
There's a touch of religion at school but it's just about okay; if I saw any evidence of brain washing stuff, I'd have words.
There's a touch of religion at school but it's just about okay; if I saw any evidence of brain washing stuff, I'd have words.
11 July 2015, 10:00 AM
#269
Religion does not give me any moral guidance or duty or tells me what is right or wrong objectively or subjectively. I love my family and provide all that I can for them, likewise I don't punch someone in the face because they''re in my way either. Religion gives guidance for those who need it.
11 July 2015, 10:17 AM
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That to me is biggest pile of bollox with any religion. This take on religion and moral guidance does not determine what is right and wrong for everyone. "God's nature" does not provide and "objective reference point". No one can know God's mind and therefore his nature; you know love because God is love, but you also know evil which also means God is evil. If a warlord massacres thousands of people, it's deemed as evil. What is it when the Christian Crusades killed thousands in the name of God? What is it when God kills thousands of innocent first born offspring? Is God's will good or evil? I'm guessing no one can question the will of God. Objective morals given to us by divine influence does not make it morally right for a religious nut to do what they did in Tunisia.
Religion does not give me any moral guidance or duty or tells me what is right or wrong objectively or subjectively. I love my family and provide all that I can for them, likewise I don't punch someone in the face because they''re in my way either. Religion gives guidance for those who need it.
Religion does not give me any moral guidance or duty or tells me what is right or wrong objectively or subjectively. I love my family and provide all that I can for them, likewise I don't punch someone in the face because they''re in my way either. Religion gives guidance for those who need it.
https://www.scoobynet.com/1019401-go...l#post11619221
https://www.scoobynet.com/1019401-go...l#post11637137
Ultimately, God is just.
Last edited by JTaylor; 11 July 2015 at 10:19 AM.