ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

Yes to unite, so as to enslave them under the control of a single body, like say for instance the church, a few at the top living "la vida loca" in a place like the Vatican with all the riches of the world at their disposal and a law unto themselves.

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

I don't doubt that in the case of some religious sects that's at least part of the motivation. If we're talking about very early religions though, you have to remember that the world was a far less predictable and secure place a few millenia ago, so the goal of achieving safety in numbers was actually a very important thing in and of itself.

JTaylor

One of the reasons for the Reformation.

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

Very true I'm sure, and ties in with my other post earlier about the leaders of such groups at the beginning of early civilisation being the strongest, but as time passed and new challengers to the throne came along fear of a higher power than man was used, to great effect until present day.

Yes but nothing has really been reformed or changed for the common man, they're still at the top of the food chain and the masses obey whilst being harvested.

mattstant

just another appalling god of the gaps argument

JTaylor

On the contrary, I could cite dozens of examples where the Reformation devolved power to the common man, the most obvious being the translation of scripture and other key texts in to languages other than Latin. It really was the beginnings of universal literacy, coinciding serendipitously with the advent of the printing press. I think we can all agree that education emancipates and the Reformation was true to its name in this regard.

JTaylor

The author doesn't define God.

hodgy0_2

and from someone who seems not to have heard of Quantum Mechanics,

and for reference anyone who quotes the "Second Law of Thermodynamics" and you know you are reading/listening to a creationist/conspiritard

it is used by climate change deniers, 911 Twoothers, creationist and assorted loonies as a "catch all" term

JTaylor

I understand Dr. Craig holds to Bohm's quantum theory. What's your position, Hodgy?

hodgy0_2

well obviously I am not a world authority on Quantum Mechanics - but I know that it addresses the concepts of "something out of nothing" and "observable states"

I can see a logically fallacious argument when I hear one (as demonstrated by Mattstants very good video)

it is the "chicken and egg" argument of a 4 years old

it is the same argument creationist use time and time again

"mmm if we evolved from Apes, why are there still Apes" - relying on a persons ignorance of the evolutionary process

are you moving towards a position of a young earth, intelligent design creationist - it is a natural progression for you

mattstant

i assume you meant Thunderfoot in which case its not his job to "define" god.
On the admission of nearly all theists God is very much undefinable mysterious omnipotent and otherworldly

surely you see the crass stupidity in asking an Atheist to define your god for you ???

this is the kind of blatant willful ignorance which convinces me religion is a serious mind rotting pap.

It also goes to show that however intelligent you are, once you believe in a God (in what ever form you choose to define) your credibility has to become questionable.

JTaylor

I'll go where the evidence leads, Hodgy. Will you?

JTaylor

So 'Thunderfoot' does not have to define the concept he endeavours to refute. Well, how convenient? Can I assume that 'Thunderfoot' is unfamiliar with the notion of ignoticism?

mattstant

the evidence is crushingly huge in the case of evolution and resides in every paleontology exhibit in every museum around the world and is still growing http://phenomena.nationalgeographic....ith-four-legs/

religion based on a biblical/koranic style of god is in serious trouble it appears some religious leaders and key proponents are trying to either re position themselves to suit.
in the style of Lane Craig or Deepak Chopra (laughable attempts to hijack quantum physics claiming atoms have souls).

Or probably much worse denying the evidence in the style of holocaust deniers (not an attempt to conflate but a very real and obvious analogy).

There are also those who are simply burying there heads in the sand and taking extremely disturbing retrograde steps aka ISIS, et al

JTaylor

You're getting a bit carried away, Matt, throwing half a dozen ideas in to the mix. First, I'm a theistic evolutionist, so agree with your first point. Second, the God of Genesis 1-3 is compatible with TE and I'm happy to have an exchange of views regards this. Third, where does WLC declare "atoms have souls"? Fourth, what on earth does this have to do with Holocaust denial?! Fifth, what does IS have to do with this? Now calm down and we can talk these things through.

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

I'd suggest it was more an attempt to spread the word further in the face of impending literacy of the masses than to aid it, at a time when the world was about to get smaller they were merely defending /expanding their position.

JTaylor

Why didn't the Vatican do that?

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

Obviously not as on the ball as CofE guess it's kind of proven by the size of the British Empire.

And something that extends to today, which is Italians being so far up their own ***** it's almost unbelievable, until you spend some time there and see it.

JTaylor

I think you're confusing (understandably) the English Reformation with the more general and universal Protestant Reformation. The former was overwhelmingly political whereas the latter was theological. Of course Martin Luther, Calvin and Zwingli did indeed want to disseminate the Word, but that was for reasons of faith, not power. If you could own your own Bible why would you need a priest? I have a book called "The Unquenchable Flame" that my pastor bought me, a good read that acts as a sound introduction to the Reformation.

dpb

Faith is power , isn't it !

Turbohot

Faith could be quite disempowering (or shall I say, humbling), too. That's because it may make you realise that you aren't all that fekking great, and there's a big brother watching you.

dpb

Means nothing...


Sorry

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

As I'm sure you know, I have very little knowledge of religion beyond what I would consider to be normal for the vast majority of non practicing christians, so please excuse the gaping holes in my knowledge on the subject.

My take on religion as a whole is, it's about control and those at the top of the tree staying in power, Gorge Orwell nailed it pretty good with the signature line from Animal farm, "we're all equal, but some of us are more equal than others." Which is basically what all the religions and various institutions such as Royalty, Political standing, great wealth etc convey, the rest of us must bow at their feet, kiss the ring (pun intended) show respect and generally act as they are somehow better than oneself, which is basically bollocks and contradictory to the teachings of the bible, as in all men are created equal, but in reality all aspire to be more equal than others.

Turbohot

Well obviously not, if you're going to be awful to the fellow humans and act all humble and sh7t scared of that big brother.

dpb

Well the key question, because the rest of it is provably nonsense , is whether the 'faith' involved here has led us to be* humane towards each other, imo

Turbohot

Here means where, exactly? Scoobynet or on this earth?

However, if you're talking about 'here' as Scoobynet, I think James is much better to others now, don't you think? He's always so polite and sweet to others since his conversion to his faith. He keeps forgiving everyone! You, on the other hand..............

dpb

Its clearly as much an intellectual exercise as anything else to him !

Turbohot

Well he likes to discuss things intellectually and academically; by supporting most of what he says with the references from other sources. That's just him.

You, on the other hand, talk about the peanut butter flavoured Kitkat FGS!

JTaylor

I understand that, but I must speak from experience. As already stated, I attend a very modest baptist church. We have a pastor whose meagre wage is paid for directly by the church funds; this is made up of the collection, money bequeathed and capital raised by selling off church assets (most recently the manse). There is no hierarchy, our pastor's boss is the Lord and His Word. There's no conspiracy of power and control. We believe we practice Christianity in a way intended by Christ and in a way that's scripturally authentic and we are one of thousands up and down the land, each of whom is independent. Christ always intended His church to be a sea of believers, not the kind of leviathan that you describe.

Ooperbum

Any one want to buy a T-shirt???