john banks

Thanks JT.

What logical or biblical reasons come to mind to support faith being given so much power?

If I carried on with that attitude towards my patients I would be struck off. In many relationships it would be considered abusive.

hodgy0_2

are you serious!!!!!!

yes you really do need to read the whole thread again

I could not have made my views any clearer

only a complete fvcktard would see it any other way

JTaylor

No problem. I'm sure you and others appreciate me keeping it short.

To answer your question above I need you to unpack it a bit more for me.

Again, I'm not sure I follow.

john banks

JT, I'll try to express it another way and see what points of agreement we have... The deal is that we are supposed to believe something we cannot see, we are to suspend the normal rational judgement we would expect to use in all other areas of life and instead try to believe in the existence of god, using faith. Some have it, some don't. Some ask for it, some get it, some don't. Some have a different version and then we all argue about whose version is correct. This faith then moves us to assume the infallibility of the bible and we are to base our entire lives upon it and convert others to believe the same. Side debates include the formation of the canon of scripture, interpreting away the morally or intellectually difficult bits as being allegorical or for their time or culture.

My question is something along the lines of, "Why is it reasonable to consider faith as the best way of making important truth claims?"

It comes back to whether it is reasonable to believe in the resurrection of Jesus based on the evidence to hand. An extraordinary claim should be supportable by extraordinary evidence. Yet I can't find it, am expected to suspend this requirement and take it on blind faith and then base everything I do and believe upon it.

My further comments were along the lines of, "If these are the rules then they seem abusive and I wouldn't expect to be allowed to get away with that, so if god exists, why should he and what illustration of higher morality is it to carry on like that?"

JTaylor

Have a read through this (if you've not already). It's the best I can do:

https://www.scoobynet.com/1019401-go...l#post11638752

I'll answer the second question below.

JTaylor

If you feel like that about the creator, it's best that you don't believe He exists. Do you genuinely believe Jesus to be abusive?

john banks

Appreciate the link, but apart from faith being necessary, it and nothing else I have read explain why it is a good thing.

If these are the rules, then I do believe them to be abusive, and the entity that made them the same. In a human it is the sort of trait that would attract the diagnosis of a personality disorder. Christians aren't allowed to ask questions like this. They might benefit from asking whether they really love the God of the bible, and whether they should, or if they are ignoring the nasty bits.

JTaylor

Yes, Dawkins shares this view. I would counter thus: would you describe Jesus as "abusive"? Keep in mind that hell is the eternal separation from God, so it logically and necessarily follows that an unbeliever cannot be reconciled with a God in which they do not believe.

john banks

The historical Jesus is barely mentioned by Josephus and Tacitus, so the primary source is the gospels. A lot of what Jesus is quoted as saying is epic. If you cannot believe in resurrection, some of the rest is delusional except the exception in the definition. To meet Jesus in person and see the miracles would not have left you with the impression he was abusive. To read the bible now, if it is the word of god, then I think the expectation placed on modern man to believe without evidence or burn is abusive. I am judging god by a godless set of moral values but his should clearly be better and there are countless problems many have with the morality of the bible. As a Christian you kind of have to accept it so you have little choice.

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

What the gentleman lacks in force of discursive persuasion, he more than makes up for in charm and honey-coated words. We're truly honoured to be in his company.

Ooperbum

You lot of fruite loops still at it? Give up now as you're all making your selfs look like bellends.

And yes, Jesus is s cu*t.

hodgy0_2

Sure, I admit I have a low tolerance of thickery

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

That must make it pretty damn tough living with yourself, eh?

hodgy0_2

Genuinely, I expect more of my 16 year old son

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

Yep, and no doubt he expects quite a bit more of you. Nobody's perfect though, are they.

hodgy0_2

Lol, I suspect you couldn't even articulate your involvement in this thread

What's your position, what's your view,

Mine is pretty clear, JT's is pretty clear, John Banks is pretty clear, UC is pretty clear

What's yours markmjd, do you have one

Do you even understand what this thread is about

Again I have made my views pretty clear

What's yours, enlighten us

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

My position is that some people are truly beyond help, and you're looking very much like one of them.

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

I find this thread quite interesting, but from a different perspective, (as usual).

It really shows me how well the "system" works (The system being, Bible, education, brain washing and distraction)

Here we have a section of the Snet community that have clearly spent significantly more time being "Educated" due to either showing an aptitude for it or social economic background, so these are what would within the system be considered the "brighter" minds amongst the population.

Yet all this education appears to have done for you in my eyes, is tie you up in knots and get you going around and around in circles, eloquently pontificating, totally distracted and in effect neutered and neutralised as a threat to the status quo, whilst also giving you the appearance and feeling of superiority, your also probably better financially rewarded as a result too.

Very good system.

There's certainly a lot to be said for not being quite so well "educated".

I'm sure you chaps will be able to dispute it and say it somewhat more eloquently than I have just done, if you can get your heads around it of course.

JTaylor

John, so your primary objection is that everything hinges on faith and this, to your mind, marks God out as abusive as He makes an unreasonable demand on humanity i.e have faith or be seperated from Me forever.

I'm of the view that His command is logical. A few posts above I assert that "it logically and necessarily follows that an unbeliever cannot be reconciled with a God in which they do not believe". The real conundrum is the notion of election, as you know this means that God selects who is to believe and who's not to believe. So there's a tension between exercising one's free will and submitting to God's sovereignty; this could be illustrated as a battle between good and evil where good idolises the creator and evil idolises the created. The key here is pride and this can be traced back to the Fall. So, is the Fall real? Yes! In the sense Polkinghorne illustrates it in #241. There was a particular moment in human history where we became aware of mortality and allowed fear to creep in and instead of turning to our Father we turned in on ourselves. Pride (the snake) had entered the garden.

Now, the good news is that Christ died on the cross so that we may trample on the snake's head and defeat death, the bad news (for some) is that one has to give-up pride. That's the deal! Eternal life with God or material wealth with Satan. If you choose the former it's because God has softened your heart and opened your eyes and given you ears to hear. If you choose the latter, you're in the grips of the great deceiver and need to pray for salvation.

hodgy0_2

Fine after all the huff and bluster you don't really have one - not a surprise tbh

And beyond help/redemption?

Sure, sounds like something JT would say, so I am quite content with your incitefull analysis

john banks

If it is a choice between Satan = material wealth and pride and God = something different then we would expect to be able to measure a difference between those who believe in God and those who don't. I suspect there is a lot more pride and material wealth amongst "Christians" (depending on definition) because of the effect of North America and Europe. Poverty, Christianity and Africa might go together but not be causally related, but corruption might be considered highest in Southern European, African and South American countries where Christianity is widely professed.

The churches I was involved in reflected more white social class 1/2 than the area they were situated.

JTaylor

There's plenty of evil amongst the religious 'Christians' and that's one of the reasons for the Reformation. Protestantism isn't entirely free of greed and corruption, but I don't see the sale of indulgences as we did in early 16th century Christendom. I actually think that most 'Christians' haven't given up self to be in Christ, but are in fact contemporary Pharisees - all moral and upstanding and well-dressed and impecibly behaved and judging of other Christians by their exterior life. Possibly the worst kind of pride! I'm also not saying that a Christian has to be entirely ascetic, but what is certain is that a Christian must idolise nothing and no one but The Lord; not himself, his wife, his children, his bank account, his football club, his car, his garden or indeed, his standing in the church and the community. The Christian is to enjoy these blessings, but must recognise them for what they are - gifts from God!

I didn't understand what it was to be a Christian until I became one.

hodgy0_2

that seems to suggest that you must love God, "in primacy" over your wife and children?

JTaylor

Yes. Of course this is not to say you don't love your wife and children, but The Lord must come first.

Here is what Jesus said; “Now when Jesus saw a crowd around him, he gave orders to go over to the other side. And a scribe came up and said to him, ‘Teacher, I will follow you wherever you go.’ And Jesus said to him, ‘Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head.’ Another of the disciples said to him, ‘Lord, let me first go and bury my father.’ And Jesus said to him, ‘Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead.’” —Matthew 8:18-22

“Now great crowds accompanied him, and he turned and said to them, ‘If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple.’” —Luke 14:25-27

“Brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death, and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.” —Matthew 10:21-22

“For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person’s enemies will be those of his own household. Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.” —Matthew 10:35-39

I suspect you'll object, Hodgy!

hodgy0_2

absolutely :-)

I was 99% certain that's what you meant

I just wanted to help the confused out there

hodgy0_2

how many religious people actually do though?

love God over everything and everyone - in the very real way that you do?

JTaylor

'Religious' people don't, but Christians should. Many will understandably put their children before God, others like Abraham (with Isaac) will have such faith that they're willing to 'sacrifice' their child in the same way God the Father sacrificed His only Son. Now before you call Childline, I would call contemporary 'sacrifice' the giving up of the self for God - an exchange of material wealth for the spiritual. Some make 'sacrifices' to earn lots of cash (been there), others sacrifice their childhood to excel at sport (been there) and some sacrifice their early adulthood in exchange for sex drugs and rock and roll (been there). I'm of the view that to sacrifice your child in God's honour (rather than Satan's) is the greatest of gifts to the child. Everything else: wealth, comfort, sporting prowess should be secondary to that if you are to be a disciple.

hodgy0_2

sure but that sacrifice for your children is entirely natural it has nothing to do with God/religion

we decided that my wife would not go back to work when we had our first child - she had a very successful career in the fashion business

but we wanted our children to have a mother at home, to be taken and collected from school by their mother, to have tea cooked for them every night by their mother

financially it has cost us a lot (a small fortune tbh) - but we did it because we love our children and wanted them to have the best start in life

religion never came into it, just the love for our children - and my love for my wife, she did not want to go back to work, I could not conscience forcing/asking her too

yes it meant I had to step up to support them, but again that was sacrifice I was absolutely prepared to make

I know it is a combination of hard work and luck, to an extent, but I never take it for granted

john banks

JT, the sense of pride in being a "proper" Christian can be a stumbling block too if you are not careful. Few need to look far to see their own hypocrisy, you and I included.

JTaylor

Good for you and I'm not saying you can't do what you've done without God. What I suspect is that you idolise your family and this is a fundamental breach of God's Law. It doesn't matter of course, because you don't believe in God, you believe in yourself.