markjmd

iTrader: (11)

From what I've read about him, a bit of both.

JTaylor

Neither. He was a Jew with a pantheistic God-concept, but he did not believe in the personal God of Christianity.

"I believe in Spinoza's God, who reveals Himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a God who concerns Himself with the fate and the doings of mankind... " - Einstein

"God is one, that is, only one substance can be granted in the universe. Whatsoever is, is in God, and without God nothing can be, or be conceived." - Spinoza

As I stated earlier, I was a pantheist for a short while whilst I made the transition from anti-theism to Christianity and so investigated messrs Einstein and Spinoza, I was also fortunate enough to study a little Spinoza at uni'.

JTaylor

A Christian is somebody that believes in Jesus Christ and accepts Him as Lord and saviour. As Hodgy would say "it's binary". I think the distinction would be better expressed as being between a cultural Christian and a practising Christian. Christ disliked 'the religious' - investigate His take on the Pharisees.

Matteeboy

God bothering sure does seem to be a good substitute for sleep...

john banks

JT, it is a tricky situation, to say you are unequally yoked brings judgement based on archaic agricultural methods so I would avoid it as it is rarely helpful. Believing what you do, your partner's situation is perilous. I fear that you have swapped one set of fears for another. I would reflect on the reality of your (long suffering on behalf of your partner) relationship with your partner and your relationship with god. Your relationship is far better than 4K video yet prayer is like listening to white noise with nothing except random content. You can imagine all sorts of things and focus and amplify things you think are biblical and your hopes and fears overlay the rest. There are no studies that convince that prayer works, and answers aren't forthcoming from the signs and wonders/charismatic side of things. I would encourage you to use your own honest evaluation of what you believe and consider whether faith (to me a construct used to believe things you really suspect aren't true and avoid questionning them) is resulting in you continuing to live in fear. Like you hope I would be reconverted, I hope you can walk away from fear and can make the most of whatever life you do have instead of driving a wedge between you and your partner. If god demanded you slay her I hope you would be discerning enough to select the right bible verse to make your decision. I don't say that flippantly and suspect she is the one to repent to for putting her through all this. Consider her perspective and ask her whether this stranger on the internet helps you understand it from her POV instead of you thinking you have all the answers because the bible says so.

JTaylor

Thanks for that, John, a really honest and considered post and I don't detect a hint of malice.

Jesus comes first in my life and the love I have for Him is, as I'm sure you'll recall, a very different type of love than that I have with my partner. My partner is actually pleased that I've come to Christ, she certainly isn't adverse, I just want her to experience that same joy, joy that can only be experienced when one knows God.

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

That's all very interesting, except we were talking about Werner Heisenberg.

Maybe JB is right, your slightly obsessive focus on some of this is causing you to lose sight of what's right there in front of you.

JTaylor

Sorry, Mark, as Matteeboy points out, it was rather late! I must admit I thought it was unlike you as you're normally particular on things like this.

john banks

Your partner sounds wonderful. I am sure you are as well The elephant in the room in your personal situation is surely that you should get married and cease sexual relations meantime.

For sure, I experienced what I thought was love for God and when I could push doubt aside was very happy indeed. Whilst trying to accept grace and then trying to be better, I was crestfallen at the prospects for the unsaved and tried hard to divert my energies in this respect, but whilst trying to love them it felt artificial and not seeing people as ripe for hearing the good news I can now just appreciate them for what they are.

The doubts eventually won through as I considered the evidence required behind hundreds of decisions we make daily and the relative importance vs the decisions made because of faith. For a few months I strived to find answers and asked for faith, yet it evaporated. I knew that if what I was struggling to believe was true it was more important than marriage, passing finals and my life itself. I hope the genuine desperation of that time shows through... Yet still faith evaporated. In the best possible way I wish the same revelation for you as you wish the opposite for me.

JTaylor

I hear you, John, and you're right, she is wonderful whilst I certainly am not! It's good to talk with somebody on NSR that's 'been there and done it' as it offers a binocular perspective. Nonetheless I have had, for the last four years, incredible spiritual growth and if anything my relationship with my partner is stronger. I owe that to the Lord. I won't become the thirteenth at the table because of an internet conversation having spent twenty years in the wilderness. I've come home, John, and as you know there's no greater feeling!!

john banks

I watched the video in post #1. It was very good for the intended audience and demonstrates grace. It also shows the deconstruction of the self, a good or a bad thing depending on how you look at it. The frankness about doubt was interesting and struck a chord, but after that it diverged from my experience.

I'm not the prodigal son. He was wastefully extravagant and had a real father whose existence was not in doubt. One like I, who is told he has a father who appears imaginary when you really need him, and left no inheritance except faith that he might exist, and who whilst going away was not doing it to be wastefully extravagant but constantly asking for his father felt not just ignored, but fatherless. Contradicts Matthew 7:7.

There is no biblical explanation for my experience. I hope I'm being considerate in expressing it in your world view, but how could a father be existent and consistent with the bible when he lets one whose faith is waning just walk away and remain silent? It is 17 years later. People are reconciled with their real world father after a longer period, but the very existence of the father is a pre-requisite.

Why should such important decisions be left to faith? If you don't believe it, even if you want to believe it, you burn in hell. If you grow up in another culture and are so immersed in it, yet hear the gospel once, yet do not accept it, you burn in hell.

God should have impeccable logic, morals, consistency. We shouldn't have to put extraordinary effort into interpreting the context of his words so that they produce multiple factions. His words should be so evidently righteous and true that they become universally held by all those who honestly seek... yet they are not. Unless you say they are not honestly seeking. How is a man to get through these road blocks? No wonder the JW's think only 144K are saved LOL.

I could argue that the damage done to the minds of billions of Christians is greater than the earthly suffering Jesus went through by being crucified. Beyond that, the real suffering inflicted in his name including AIDS, war, genocide etc is a million times worse. Maybe it is wrong to change this into the problem of suffering. I'm more interested in the process of faith and the beliefs themselves as that is the crux for me, and it seems for the bible.

I could also compare and contrast my earthly father and what I perceived as a heavenly father. My own father is not perfect, but is warm, reassuring, loving, honest, compassionate, non judgemental when appropriate, intelligent and inspiring. Mostly though, I know he exists. The relationship with the heavenly father should be more important, yet we have no way of knowing he exists as the whole question is left to the tenuous link of faith. Charitably, it sounds again like a claim that has been constructed to be undefeatable, yet because there isn't enough evidence it is unconvincing to most. Why would God leave it so that only those who can suspend their overwhelming rational objections can be saved? Uncharitably, it has the mark of a very human story to control people, and that is works very well for.

I've thrown lots in here, don't feel the need to respond to it all. I'm also not trying to win an argument. Purely for the sake of honesty, I revisit my own decisions and still enjoy such discussions periodically. I don't think it makes any more difference now as a non Christian talking to Christians than it did when I was a Christian talking to non Christians. Bigger forces are at work, the ones I perceive are materialism/consumerism, mind control and the (albeit waning) socio-political/economic might of the church. The Christian would add to this the entire spirit world.

JTaylor

I'm in work at the moment, John. While this is never normally a problem, I'd like to consider your post without distraction and then respond accordingly. Great post by the way.

hodgy0_2

I think it perfectly acceptable to respect peoples work in their field of expertise

but to divorce that from any respect for there view outside that field

Raymond Damadian, invented the technologies behind the MRI scanner - which has undoubtedly saved countless lives, and I would not hesitate to use it for me or my wife/children

yet he is a young earth creationist - who believes the earth is 6000 years old, was created in 6 days, and we had dinosaurs as pets

sorry, but I would not take ANYTHING he says outside the field of MRI scanning seriously - and have Zero respect for people with medieval views

I believe he has nothing to offer me about how life/the world works, other than MRI scanning

you can call it "rigid" I am happy with that

hodgy0_2

lol, you really don't get it do you

it is not a pick 'n' mix

there is no such thing as Christianity "light" - just being "nice" with a faint whisp of "something out there"

you accept all of it or none of it - have you actually read this thread? - see post 363

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

You mean the post where JT referred to the distinction between 'practising Christians' and 'cultural Christians'? You know, the kind that probably make up an easy 90% of people who describe themselves as Christians on censuses and similar polls?

On the plus side of course, if you're right and the 30 million or so of people in the UK who make up those non-practising Christians don't really exist, it looks like we just solved the over-crowding problem the country's supposedly facing at one easy stroke. I don't know about you, but I'd call that a result

hodgy0_2

lol, ok you really don't get it

sure you can put down what you want on a census form - I would probably put cultural Christian, (I was married in a church etc etc, my children attend a c of e school, my wife helps out at the village/church fete) - but that is not going to help me is it

totally irrelevant if you don't accept gods sovereignty (on earth and in heaven) - complete with all the ridiculous medieval logic that flows from it

JTaylor

Before I wade-in, John, can I just confirm that you were an old earth creationist?

john banks

Yes.

JTaylor

No wonder you're a 'Thomas'!

Off to church. I'll respond later.

JTaylor

Literalist? (Adam and Eve, Global Flood etc.)

Uncle Creepy

...

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

You know as well as I do though that there's no such option on the form, so either you accept the reality that in the year 2015, being 'Christian' in this country doesn't equate to the strict dogmatic definition you're trying to give it here, or you carry on defending the position that you know the minds of 30 million people in this country better than they do themselves. Is that really something you want to do?

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

Since this all seems to hinge on your personal interpretation of some vaguely defined line between being merely religious and being a religious nutter, I think you could probably afford to give Jonc and myself a pass for not quite grasping every detailed nuance of what you posted.

Poor choice of words of my part, I should have phrased that 'you might be astonished'. For reasons already stated, I personally am not.

hodgy0_2

oh boy

I am not the one defining Christianity "to the strict dogmatic definition"

JT is, do you honestly not grasp that,

seriously you need to read the thread again

hodgy0_2

I don't think they grasp what this thread is about

bless!!!!




Whoops poor choice of words

Paben

iTrader: (5)

On a religious forum somewhere, is there a little group of nutters arguing the toss about Subarus, and talking complete bollox? I like to think so.

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

I grasp that your ability to make it clear when and where you're parroting (or should that be parodying?) someone else's views rather than stating your own could use a little work. Does that count, or do I still have to read the whole thread again?

john banks

Uncertain, probably not.

I will bring it back to the question of believing in the resurrection of Jesus though. If you can believe that, it is all that really matters.

JTaylor

Glad you watched it, I think it's terrific.

I asked and sought and knocked and the Father was indescribably merciful in welcoming me home. I squandered my inheritance, but have been forgiven. I cannot pretend to know why you've not received yours. I'll give prayerful consideration to this and may come back to it.

I'm not sure how you can be reconciled with a Father in whom you do not believe. To blame the Father when it is you who's denied Him seems a little off.

That's the deal.

For me, now, after much study and prayer, the word of God is crystal clear although I can't pretend to have explored it in its entirety. To plumb the depths of God's word ought to take an eternity.

You understand the Fall - it is true-myth.

I'm glad you have a strong relationship with your father.

I've just returned from church, there wasn't a hint of control; it was Godly, inspiring, convicting and sincere. In terms of rational objections, if you were a literalist it comes as little surprise that you were unable to suspend your disbelief. I was only able to reconcile Christianity and science as a theistic evolutionist.

As I said earlier, this is Satan's world and the epoch of the self. Unbelief permeates every institution playing in to the hands of the few. Mammon reigns.

Agreed. I believe that Jesus died for our sins and rose again. Praise God!

Turbohot

Well if that religious forum has a sub-forum like Non Scooby Related where people can talk about non religious stuff, then yeah, I also think so.