jayallen

iTrader: (31)

Not only have they caught up, they have raised the bar and with two less driven wheels....Did you miss the part where it was 5 seconds quicker around the Ring than the Spec C?

There again I'my pretty sure you would of eclipsed both times in the wet in you Type R..

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

I did miss the Ring times actually, but that said 5 seconds over 17km with a pro driver is hardly a major advancement, means **** all on the road with your average Joe or even Jay behind the wheel.

FYI, I do think my 330bhp Type R would be right there with them too with a pro driver.

So again where's the bar been raised over an 18 year old car be-cause I sure as hell can't see it and that's before we get onto the discussion about "in the wet".

P1Fanatic

The FN2 sucked 0-60. You need to hit 5k revs to get power by which time you wheelspin so have to short shift into 2nd. I got tired of being embarassed by diesels. The RS mk2 put its much higher power and torque down in first although I believe they were both restricted. I reckon my current X3 30d would easily do them both due to AWD.

LSherratt

iTrader: (1)

Yep read the reviews and forums etc. FN2 was bad at 0-60 and they did a comparison test with the EP3 and it beat it every time; EP3 averaging it in 6.1 seconds or something like that. Seriously, this type R should be faster for all that power it has but I guess that's the mitigating factor with FWD.... and for £32k? Ouch.

dpb

pffffft , my xsara could do it in 8.5

and its 13 years old . and half the power in every direction

Shaun

Ditch,
My argument (which wasn't actually an argument, just a point of view) hasn't got a gapping hole in it.

This isn't about the cost of new vs old. This is about how things have advanced overall for the better of the consumer. Cars, as with most things in life, have continued to cost more as time goes on. I remember the Subaru Impreza being under 20k not that long ago (in reality), but that's history. The fact is you need to look at what is available today, not what something cost 15yrs ago. That's irrelevant.

You know as much as me, not only are you paying for technology advancements, but you're also paying for a brand (certainly in the realms of the A45 and RS3). You need to see beyond that, as that is just life in respect of branding (and we all have a choice about being a part of that bandwagon). It doesn't make, what these cars can do, any less great. Yes, I appreciate these two models are mega money in reality, but the whole of this performance sector is moving in the same way, as regards to performance. And they appear to be selling plenty of them as well.

You may get your calculator out to judge performance in relation to £'s and shillings. Although we don't all share your approach, hence why this sector is so buoyant now and rapidly growing. Most manufacturers now want a piece of this sector (it wasn't too long along, no one wanted anything to do with it, other than Mitsi and Subaru), and the ones that are in it, are doing extremely well. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out why.

However, I'm talking about these "types" of performance cars in general. The amount of usable performance, in an every day car that you can buy brand new, is awesome.

If you want to compare performance per £ as the be all and end all, we'd all still be driving around in 30yr old 205 GTi's!

We all buy into our chosen marques for our own reasons, but to dismiss this new breed of performance hatch is slightly foolish, and makes you look like a aged old fossil.

I appreciate these new fangled things are not your cuppa tea..... but you are not the majority and you'll only become part of "history" yourself, if you're not too careful.

Life is like a box of chocolates...... and not one with just Maltesers in it.

I must admit, this crap about being at one with our cars (which is becoming quite a common - I'm a driver - comment! FFS - as long as I can feel what the car is doing and it does everything I ask of it, what's the issue. I take it you have removed ABS and PAS from your Scoob, along with the DCCD. For that true "drivers" experience.

Second thoughts, if you were a proper man you'd buy a RWD (REAL wheel drive) and ditch gaywheel drive that you have now.

I'll await your response Stig.

Take your glasses off..... it's sunny over here.

Fabioso

Hot hatches have come of age, I mean a few years ago a FWD hot hatch at 200 bhp was laughed at as being no where near in the same league as the M/RS Brands and now the stats are showing things are changing. Yes any old modded performance car can be "enhanced" to match the new young pretenders but they don't come with a minimum 3 year warranty and they drink double the fuel.

I love this arms race, because to me in a couple of years time there is going to be a great choice of very capable cars for new Fiesta money kicking around!

But if driving a 16 year old car that keeps up floats your boat then Go fo it! is what I say

jayallen

iTrader: (31)

Subaru seem to think it means more than "**** all" on the road, didn't they tag the Spec C with its own Ring sticker when it broke a Ring time record?
As for average Joe, he/she won't be buying this car, neither will 17 year old kids or OAP's, the usual punter for a Civic. Honda's intention is to steal buyers from other marques, hence bolting on a blower and not following the usual n/a route.



330bhp Type R? I don't recall a 330bbhp Type R ever leaving the factory, which model was this? I guess you mean a modified Type R which would make it 50bhp over the factory car so not a factory stock car so hardly comparable, infact its not comparable in any really shape or form.......but.....Add 50bhp to this new Civic and as I said, the bar has been raised and even more impressively, with 2 less driven wheels.

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

Yep they may well think it means something and to a degree it does, but as you well know my point was that 5 seconds over 17km is hardly a huge margin, especially when translated to the road with us mere mortals, a decent 0-60 time is of more use to Mr Joe Average than pub bragging rights on Ring times, as that's where it will see most action, on the road in Mr Average's ham fisted ownership.





Now yet again your just being pedantic, ok 330bhp is not standard, but it is levelling the playing field against a 320bhp Spec C and a 310bhp Civic which you know full well was my point, but hey it would be no fun if you used your noggin would it.

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

Shaun.

Inhales deep breath.

You were the one that mentioned running costs as some sort of justification for ownership, I merely retorted.

Yes times they are a changing, whether that's for the better or not is a matter of opinion.

I fully understand why these types of vehicles are selling well (or renting ) to the upwardlymobile types, prestige and the ability to demolish all before them is always going to be a winner in this modern age we live in with certain types.

I was never a big fan of the 205 GTI , I much preferred the 309 GTI. Which works well as a comparison to our personal tastes these days.

I'm by no means dismissing these types of vehicle as in effect they are the market sector I'm most interested in fast, practical with 4wd for the more often than not adverse weather we see across Europe, my point about them was more to do with the fact that it's not a new concept or sector as it's been around for some time now, they've just "joined the party" and thrown a bunch of flashing lights at the job, so to speak.

Some of us liked it the way things were, it's a bit like when an underground music scene goes commercial / main stream, it takes all the fun out of it.

So yeah I am a bit of an old fossil.

I'm a bit of a purist when it comes to driving, I don't claim to be brilliant at it and indeed the older and better I get at it like most things I realise how much more there is that can be improved upon, which is why I shun electronic interference.

I don't care what the next man is doing, if he's in front I won't go chasing him, if he's behind and on my bumper, I'll let him pass, I just want to enjoy in my own time space continuum, nice lines, late braking, early on the gas a bit of a slide here and there and some squirming under braking makes me happy, I'd also like nothing more than to own a RWD car with no aids but sadly my circumstances won't allow that now for reasons of practicality, maybe one day.

I am by no means "dissing your ride" I get that we're not all the same and the vast majority of people need help to drive these types of cars especially with the speeds they are capable of, I think that's a good thing for other road users It's a bit like the latest Super bike, quite often the people that can financially manage to find themselves riding one are more often than not a danger to themselves and other road users, so throwing a bag full of electronics to keep these things on the road is a good idea IMO, It's part of the reason most cars became front wheel drive along with manufacturing costs it was a win win situation.

Although i'd still love to see someone like Ford have the ***** to make a RWD version of the Focus, not some over priced RS version but a back to basics cheap as chips bog standard base model with around 200bhp should do it, then they can have an options list as long as your arm for the "Fashion" conscious electronic generation, now that would be something I'd buy into.

Shaun

Ditch,
"Yes times they are a changing, whether that's for the better or not is a matter of opinion."

Old farts always say that!


It's healthy discussion mate, and I never thought for one minute that you were "dissing" my ride.

Now get out of that tractor and get into one of these shopping cars!

daveyj

iTrader: (1)

Personally I love the look of it. The FN2 grew on me slightly but I never took the plunge. Always felt a bit blunt compared to my EP3s. Still own a Milano Red prefacelift EP3 and enjoy driving it. Many Hondas end up being turbocharged in the modified car scene, so a factory effort won't be foreign to a lot of folks anyway. Unfortunately it is inevitable they had to go that way as they can't keep up with the competition and meet EU emissions regs with N/A engines in 1300/1400kg cars.......with bluetooth this, climate control that.

It'll be a few years before I can consider one but will definitely be doing so when the finances marry up with asking prices at the time.

Devildog

Matthew is probably suicidal knowing that some front wheel drive Honda is faster on track than his M135i

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

Still young at heart mate I loves me tractors I do, oh are.

jura11

iTrader: (7)

Hi there

Finally they ditched NA,bloody hell how long this took them to understand,NA is great,but still turbo is turbo...

Old school K20 engine is great and pretty reliable,we run on our EP3 from 240bhp to 382bhp without the single issue,but without the LSD is pointless putting more power,because front wheel only wheel spin in any gear(we are run via Syvecs Traction control which little bit help,but without the LSD you are still have wheel spin in 3rd gear)

EP3 is great car,FN2 is heavier and not sure if I would choose that,I can compare both,have tried in FN2 350bhp and tried in our 350bhp(still only on wastegate pressure 1.0bar) and FN2 feels safer in many ways,but doesn't handle well than EP3,that's my view

Hopefully UK version will have LSD as standard and not will be again poor cousin of JDM,which has been better in many ways

But still I would probably go again with EP3 and turbocharge this car,but without the better brakes and better suspension etc and LSD is pointless to do so,as their ECU can't be mapped unless you will buy Hondata K-PRO,which is OK for most people,but still I would go with Syvecs,have run that ECU on EP3 and has been worth it

Thanks,Jura

daveyj

iTrader: (1)

Part of the attraction of Kpro/K100 motherboards, and probably why they are so popular, is retaining factory ecu, loom, fault-finding, immobilisor, etc whilst being able to run super chargers/turbos/throttle bodies/boost by gear/data logging etc and be totally reversible........that and a very keen price point when stacked against standalone stuff.

It'll be very interesting to see what Mugen/TDI-North and the like come up with on this new model.

jura11

iTrader: (7)

Hi there

We've run K-PRO,its not bad ECU,but pretty basic features have.Fault finding you can do on any ECU,immobilizer is not the problem,depends on ECU and how many maps have,but you can do,one map as valet or immobilizer map or simply you can make kill switch for fuel pump,new K-PRO 4 can be mapped live,but not as most live mapped ECU,on this you can map only few parameters etc.What issue has been for me on KPRO,poor boost control,just have look we are made on KPRO at wastegate pressure 297bhp and on Syvecs we are made 352bhp at the same wastegate pressure and mainly we are been have multiple maps(fuel or boost),proper ALS,LC and traction control for no extra cost(on KPRO you can have traction control for extra cost)

Usually people choose K-PRO due the price,not the features I would say and due can be mapped by totally amateur,if you know how to do

TDI North expect,TDI North prices too and same can be applied for Mugen,Mugen version always has been very expensive and always has been best equipped,I would rather wait with which can come other independent companies from US,not sure what engine can take and if will be forgiving as K20 which can be turbocharged and can run on stock internals up to 600whp,although you need to keep torque bellow 300lb-ft

Thanks,Jura

stilover

Who brags about 0-60 times anyway? Yes, it's nice knowing a modern hot hatch is only a second down on a Ferrari, but do people (other than Geeks and GT-R owners) really care?

I don't really give a toss about ring times either, but at least extracting a decent ring time can determine how a cars chassis is set-up, how well it's traction is out of corners, and how hard it can corner. 0-60 is just for fools who think straight line speed is everything.

I always prefer to look at a cars Torque figure, and it's in gear acceleration times, as how quickly it can pass a wagon on a road is far more important then how quickly it can jump off the lights, as overtaking on todays clogged up roads is what 99.999% of people care about more than 0-60.

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

Yep I agree overtaking ability is a good thing, and generally goes hand in hand with a good 0-60.

I don't know about where you drive but in my town getting off the lights quickly certainly helps me get around faster than I otherwise would sat behind women doing their make up and blokes having a shave while they're on the way to work or just general dawdlers.

My point about the Ring time wasn't so much that it's useless, it was to do with it being 5 seconds quicker over 17km which IMO when translated to the road is nothing.

No surprise really though with similar bhp and 10yrs of development I'd expect both cars to be on a par, I'd also imagine both previous Type R's given similar bhp wouldn't be far off the mark either.

P.S; There are quite a few traffic lights that are in sequence with one another catch the first set right and you can drive through most of Nottingham city centre in about 3 mins, get it wrong and you'll be there for closer to 15mins.

Shaun

Ditch,
I think you maybe missing some context.....

The SPEC C is classed as one of the quickest cars, point to point from the factory, that was released during it's time and within it's class. The SPEC C is reported to be quicker than a GT3 (of same year) "on track".

Remember this Civic is FWD and heavier.

I personally think it's quite an achievement, even if it's not directly relevant to us normal road users.

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

It's certainly an achievement but like I said a whole decade has passed in the meantime.

Your right about the missing context though, I had no idea the Spec C was quicker than the GT3 of that period, but then again both our cars are probably quicker than a lot of old Porsches and even Ferraris, just shows how things move forward.

I remember when 20/25mpg was considered to be very good and 120mph was really fast.

mark0006

Concept looks so much better.





So aside from the lights, what has changed? Well, the production car loses the concept’s cool blade-like LED daytime-running lights and the headlight cluster is also a lot more conventional looking; the LED blades are replaced with old-school projector lamps.

24 comparison pictures from different angles

.

stilover

Must admit, if I'd placed a £3000 deposit on the Type R based on the concept pics, I'd be very disappointed.


Concept car looks amazing, while the production reality looks dull by comparison.


Think I'd be seeking my deposit back, unless all the roads tests said it was the best thing ever.

daveyj

iTrader: (1)

All versions of Kpro and K100 can be live mapped not just V4. My previous K100 v2 ECU was live mapped

Depending on which turbo you use, what psi do you make wastegate pressure to be out of interest?

Fabioso

Most cars don't end up quite as lairy as their original concept. Honda milked the concept for too long imo in the run up marketing campaign and kind of cut its nose off in the process.

Showing cool looking rear light clusters in the dark and then not delivering it seemed a bloody stupid idea to me, they would have been better off not showing the cluster in the ad or making sure the concept didn't have it in the first place. I'm also thinking the exhaust note is not going to sound half as good as it did in the ad either........

Be interested to see the first reviews though and what the magazines decide to compare it to. Will they keep the comparisons to FWD? Hopefully not, I'd like to see by how it compares to the new Focus RS and Golf R for sure.

What's the normal time scales for reviews to start appearing in the mags, if the car is going to be appearing from July?

jura11

iTrader: (7)

K100 is not bad ECU,but doesn't offer nothing,you need to have this mapped by Hondata dealer and not sure if K100 does offer Live mapping as such,if you know what Live mapping is

Live mapping is you can adjust the fueling/ignition and you will see those changes straight away when you change parameters etc

We are run wastegate pressure (14.5psi) and turbo we are used Precision SC34

Hope this helps

Thanks,Jura

lozgti1

Looks bloody ace and figures sound ace :-)