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Disconnected s/c, running n/a
Yes I was suffering tipping in issues at boost that seems where most of the work needs done on the fuel map, I've reset all maps to zeros, re flashed the fic with a couple of different z files z104,z107,z110 tonight to see what's what, z104 would even run, z107 it ran ok with a misfire and hesitation between 4000-5000 rpm at it threw a cel p0108 absolute manifold pressure circuit low voltage as soon as I started car I reset cel but lit up straight away again.
Check with Multimeter 0.83 into fic 0.02 out of fic on idle, strange figures as clamp set to 4.8 v
So I've reinstalled z110 and the latest x3.08 software and I will monitor some voltages and See how I go tomorrow, I suspect the the p0108 will be resolved as it wasn't a problem before I'm now convinced it's sensor noise so I've ordered some resistors for cam and crank.
Disconnected s/c, running n/a
Yes I was suffering tipping in issues at boost that seems where most of the work needs done on the fuel map, I've reset all maps to zeros, re flashed the fic with a couple of different z files z104,z107,z110 tonight to see what's what, z104 would even run, z107 it ran ok with a misfire and hesitation between 4000-5000 rpm at it threw a cel p0108 absolute manifold pressure circuit low voltage as soon as I started car I reset cel but lit up straight away again.
Check with Multimeter 0.83 into fic 0.02 out of fic on idle, strange figures as clamp set to 4.8 v
So I've reinstalled z110 and the latest x3.08 software and I will monitor some voltages and See how I go tomorrow, I suspect the the p0108 will be resolved as it wasn't a problem before I'm now convinced it's sensor noise so I've ordered some resistors for cam and crank.
just read all of this. Most of it is way over my head but still very enjoyable and definitely something a bit different. Good luck and we'll done.
Ok, going from bad to worse now, p0108 not resolved voltage circuit high and low and will not reset, the cars hunting, stalling even when warm, Afr from 10- 15 , all hall marks of vacuum leak, crimped vac hose going to fic idle stabilised straight away so vac hose to manifold ok so that only leaves internal map sensor in fic being faulty. 0.68 v in 0 v out yet map clamp set to 5v now.
Rewired Map sensor wired back into Ecu bypassing fic 0.68 idle 4.88 wot so nothing wrong with oem map sensor.
That's it all sorted now car pulls hard no hesitation at any rev band, no idle issues and no cels,
Wiped all the software and re downloaded it, car started first time, did calibration then set Maf clamp to input map on percent mode 5v
Car idles as it should maf in and out exactly same voltage as it should when zero' so this was clearly a software/firmware issue fic map sensor was showing correct steady manifold pressure in gauge display but sending yo-yo voltages to Ecu causing it to hunt throwing p1510.
Did a log with some wot stages there's a clear stage where revs and injector duty cycle goes haywire a 4000 rpm onwards the injector duty cycle drops to around 20% at wot causing the car to shake violently.
I installed 2.2 k resistors in crankshaft signal line to try and sort out signal noise and hey presto no more problems.
Il try and a get a copy of logged data pre and post resistor fix soon.
Cheers, it's a been a big learning curve but I'm still a novice as this is my first time I've done this tuning and as always your input is extremely valuable.
As you know I like a picture, but then again so do you
I had to bin my Afr gauge just wasn't good enough to tune with so I got a innovate lc2 gauge and controller Its a must for accuracy.
I still need to wire the Afr into the fic but that shudnt take long.
Il download pictures at the weekend of the fic install and maps.
Everything still fine with the fic the resistor fix appears to have done trick.
I've taken the pulley off, time for an upgrade so a new smaller pulley is away to the machine shop for a haircut, this will be a pressed fit instead of a coupler design a bit more safer for higher s/c rpm.
It will give me More boost than injectors can cope with at the moment so gives me more scope later on, I'm waiting on a boost controller arriving so I can keep it under control.
I've got quite a few pictures to put on so something to do tomorrow while I'm waiting for the part's to arrive.
It's all about the boost! I have ran upto a bar on std internals and high compression before. Providing your tune and intercooling is good you will have no issues. I would target 11:1 AFR at that load level, aim for 11.5:1 at 12 psi and 12:1 at 6psi.
As a rough rule you can pull 1 degree per psi of boost, although you can probably put more timing in than this id say it's a safe guide
Thanks for that info, il just have to see where the limit is for current injectors and then have to consider a different inlet manifold to accept bigger injector because I've got that daft air assist injector manifold.
Time to make a switch earth logger switch for the fic
Take a new age front fog light switch plus wiring plug
Then remove the purple and black wire as shown
Purple wire switch live
Yellow purple earth
Black is now switched earth when the button is pressed it also lights up when data logging.
so what was a switched live is now a switch earth
just need to remove that fog light decal
Power set up for the fic, innovate gauge and logger switch
innovate gauge and controller
Picture of the log 3rd gear long pull where it start to misfire just before 4k where there is signal noise from crank sensor, injector duty dropping on and off.
Picture of log with 2.2k 1/2 watt resistors fitted to cam and crank signal wire going into fic to sort out noise
On another topic it was very interesting to read boosted's 12 second operation thread that the 2.0 n/a bottom end is the same as a wrx which was a surprise but then set my mind to thinking it can take much more boost than i'm running just now. so thanks boosted for another imformed project which was the catalyst for dumping the 5psi pulley.
On another topic it was very interesting to read boosted's 12 second operation thread that the 2.0 n/a bottom end is the same as a wrx which was a surprise but then set my mind to thinking it can take much more boost than i'm running just now. so thanks boosted for another imformed project which was the catalyst for dumping the 5psi pulley.
Your biggest weakness is your compression ratio, water injection is a massive life saver with high compression forced induction.
Your absolutely correct, i've been sourcing bits for the water injection im going to use this cold start injector
from what I can see it's 110cc from a Mercedes p/n 0 280 170 412
i'm on the look out for a pump now.
I cant justify the money to buy a kit when it can be made for a fraction of the cost and still does the same job.
Not a good Idea, won't last, will Rust and stop working.
A proper stainless nozzle is not dear £17? I've used oil central heating nozzles before with some success, but now I just buy the correct thing.
I wast sure what was the internal make up on the injector was in regards to corrosion so I'm assuming they would be steel based then, I know that normally the cold start valve would only be activated for a few seconds when used as a correctly as it was intended for so what your saying is there's a good chance with prolonged operating the solenoid would just burn out?
At least now I would only have to control the pump and not pump and injector
I wasn't aware that the stainless nozzles were that cheap, thanks for the advice
It's been a while but here's an update
I re-made the s/c cradle and up the material thickness due to finding a crack and I assume that it's due to weight of the s/c it's the same design I've just doubled the thickness of the material.
Now to the business end, the new smaller pulley has been fitted after the modifications the characteristics for how the car behaves have totally changed.
Highest boost recorded is 13 psi fuel map was adjusted so at wot I'm getting around 11.2 afr so I'm pleased with that, but closed loop tuning is the issue now
After logging the tps sensor anything after 27% in any gear I immediately go into boost so I am basically having to feather the throttle as I accelerate so not to boost it in closed loop.
So as from 1000rpm in any gear if I put my pedal more 27% I get 1psi which is gonna be great when I get fuelling sorted in closed loop.
Now not I'm not entirely sure what the parameters the Ecu looks for when it changes from closed loop to open loop whether it's tps,Rev range but I can feel the change is around 3000rpm at wot as afr change on the wideband gauge.
The s/c capable of producing 5psi in closed loop and and Ecu maintaining 14.7 afr which ain't good. So il be moving on to mapping the o2 map in the fic 6 to manipulate the front o2 sensor outputs whilst the Car is in closed loop.
Now narrow band lambda readings typically have a range of 0-1 v which is easy enough to work out and find the signal wire, the cars front o2 sensor on mine is wideband works differently how and what readings I am going to get will remain to be seen according to the Ecu pin out I've got there's 4 signal wires but it doesn't say what does what or wire colours and I going to to find out this so I can tap the correct Ecu wire.
It's been a while but here's an update
I re-made the s/c cradle and up the material thickness due to finding a crack and I assume that it's due to weight of the s/c it's the same design I've just doubled the thickness of the material.
Now to the business end, the new smaller pulley has been fitted after the modifications the characteristics for how the car behaves have totally changed.
Highest boost recorded is 13 psi fuel map was adjusted so at wot I'm getting around 11.2 afr so I'm pleased with that, but closed loop tuning is the issue now
After logging the tps sensor anything after 27% in any gear I immediately go into boost so I am basically having to feather the throttle as I accelerate so not to boost it in closed loop.
So as from 1000rpm in any gear if I put my pedal more 27% I get 1psi which is gonna be great when I get fuelling sorted in closed loop.
Now not I'm not entirely sure what the parameters the Ecu looks for when it changes from closed loop to open loop whether it's tps,Rev range but I can feel the change is around 3000rpm at wot as afr change on the wideband gauge.
The s/c capable of producing 5psi in closed loop and and Ecu maintaining 14.7 afr which ain't good. So il be moving on to mapping the o2 map in the fic 6 to manipulate the front o2 sensor outputs whilst the Car is in closed loop.
Now narrow band lambda readings typically have a range of 0-1 v which is easy enough to work out and find the signal wire, the cars front o2 sensor on mine is wideband works differently how and what readings I am going to get will remain to be seen according to the Ecu pin out I've got there's 4 signal wires but it doesn't say what does what or wire colours and I going to to find out this so I can tap the correct Ecu wire.
Your compression ratio might not like 5 psi at 14.7:1, however on my car I get similar boost in closed loop before going open loop at .3 bar, this is done for fuel economy.
I've never had much success trying to fool the lambda sensor, maybe you will though 👍
I've been out with the multi meter and done a bit of research this is what I've come up with so far
Front Lambda is a 5 wire Wideband
Red
Yellow
Black
White
Grey
So white and grey are the heater part
Red is ip 0-5 v was recorded at 2.45 v at idle
Black is vs hovers around the 3v mark but does alternate slightly
Yellow is vs has a fixed voltage of 2.57v
Now from what I've worked out the Ecu measures the voltages from the black and yellow wires takes the values away from each other and is looking for a value of 450mv to which the Ecu knows this is stoich.
So in my measurements
Yellow 2.57
Black 3.01
Result .44 so close enough
So the Ecu then sends a voltage of 2.45 v through the red wire which is its value for stoich
Now if I tap into the red wire basically all I'm going to get is a realtime afr great if all you want to do is monitor your afrs
So let's look at the black and yellow wires these are actually sense wires in the lambda
I know from my readings the yellow wire has a constant voltage of 2.57 v so that leaves the black wire which does have a slight fluctuation with voltages around 3v
According to the fic manual it should be the Nernst cell which happens to be the yellow wire that it should be connected to and I will be able to manipulate the readings going back to the ecu then I can alter the fuel map to get the fuelling required in closed loop
Last edited by mikeblackett; 01 November 2015 at 12:35 AM.
Looks like what I'm wanting to do with the fic is achievable so il get that connected up tomorrow.
I did think of another way which would simplify it which would involve manipulating the coolant temp voltages at boost in closed loop this I would think would send it into open loop due to the Ecu thinking it was cold that way I would only have to fill in the one fuel map.
Looks like what I'm wanting to do with the fic is achievable so il get that connected up tomorrow.
I did think of another way which would simplify it which would involve manipulating the coolant temp voltages at boost in closed loop this I would think would send it into open loop due to the Ecu thinking it was cold that way I would only have to fill in the one fuel map.
Back in the day my friend and I did a couple NA-turbo conversions and used to use a pressure switch to flip flop between coolant temp sensor and a Variable resistor, that way you could dial the mixture in richer on boost. Very rough and ready, used to interfere with the radio as it fluttered the switch comming on boost!
Now, back to the AEM, I tried to fool two widebands on my golf, didn't work. These were bosch lsu4's though, not denso ones
Looks like what I'm wanting to do with the fic is achievable so il get that connected up tomorrow.
I did think of another way which would simplify it which would involve manipulating the coolant temp voltages at boost in closed loop this I would think would send it into open loop due to the Ecu thinking it was cold that way I would only have to fill in the one fuel map.
I think you need to find out what the ecu is using to go open loop, TPS or MAP (I take it there is no Maf?) and try to fool the ecu by intercepting this signal
This is my concern when try to to do o2 mapping I think the Ecu is going to detect something isnt right, I was looking at the denso lambda and I thought it it was an lsu of some description it certainly matches the wire colour coding of one which makes me think I'm not going to achieve something you couldn't do so maybe yes making the Ecu go into open loop via a signal is going to be easier and less problematic keeping the Ecu happy and it takes a away the o2 mapping headache.
You are correct I have a maf less car at the moment I'm using the maf clamp wire to clamp my map voltage to stop the Ecu from seeing boost.
As I'm boosting at such high level at low rpm it can't be just the map sensor sending it into open loop maybe a certain tps value must be reached also but I've notice if I sink the foot say from 1500 rpm in 3rd gear it will boost to around 5si the wideband still shows 14.7 it does accelerate but only when it gets to around the 3000rpm does the wideband suddenly drop to around the 12 and the car shoots off at a rate of knots it's quite a violent transition making me think that map and tps sensing is used but rpm range has a lot to do with going into open loop I've got plenty of fuel in the fuel map down low so the Ecu must be trimming that out as it it closed loop, but I suppose the overriding factor is if it thinks the coolant is cold it will stay in open loop in all conditions until it senses it's warm.
If it was a narrowband sensor it would be so much easier to deal with
I've been looking at the fic maps I suppose I could use the analog map to alter the coolant voltage set it to map input, voltage mode then select all cells to 0 up to boost so no changes are made then when in boost il give it its dummy feed
I've been looking at the fic maps I suppose I could use the analog map to alter the coolant voltage set it to map input, voltage mode then select all cells to 0 up to boost so no changes are made then when in boost il give it its dummy feed
Yeah you can use one of the analogue inputs and modify it. The possibilities are endless with the fic! Just try and keep it simple, don't tie yourself in knots. Also be wary that the factory acceleration enrichment will be buggered if you interfere with the TPS max voltage, causing a lean hesitation when you wapp the throttle open.
Will it not be force open loop if you disconnect the lambda completely?
30 July 2015, 01:23 AM
