Ashya King, 'abducted' by his parents
02 September 2014, 01:02 AM
#31
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Scaremongering? - The medical team have stated the fact that the child is ill and needs to be returned for immediate medical care, they back this up with his medical records.....
He may have been "hooked up to his machine" but i doubt he had anything else in there to monitor and look after his medical needs. I doubt they would be monitoring his obs, blood cell counts etc etc; and i doubt they had the medical expertise to look after him in his current condition or monitor and deal with any deterioration.
His parents do not want him in hospital, so can not be persuaded otherwise. This is why they took him out of the hospital and fled in the first place. Even if they do return him, whats to say they wont do it again or create some sort of siege to get what they want? Do we risk it.......
He may have been "hooked up to his machine" but i doubt he had anything else in there to monitor and look after his medical needs. I doubt they would be monitoring his obs, blood cell counts etc etc; and i doubt they had the medical expertise to look after him in his current condition or monitor and deal with any deterioration.
His parents do not want him in hospital, so can not be persuaded otherwise. This is why they took him out of the hospital and fled in the first place. Even if they do return him, whats to say they wont do it again or create some sort of siege to get what they want? Do we risk it.......
Where does it say his parents don't want him in hospital? From what i've seen they just want him to have alternative treatment at a hospital abroad that offers proton therapy and not be forced to have chemotherapy at Southampton General.
02 September 2014, 01:10 AM
#32
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And who do you turn to to decide if Proton therapy was the best treatment in this case - the medical team treating him?
They were arrested as there was an international arrest warrant outstanding - i believe its now up to the Spanish Judge to decide what happens next.
I would suggest had they have stayed in the UK, the arrest may not have been necessary as the child could have been taken into protective police custody. Once abroad, this avenue may not have been available.
They were arrested as there was an international arrest warrant outstanding - i believe its now up to the Spanish Judge to decide what happens next.
I would suggest had they have stayed in the UK, the arrest may not have been necessary as the child could have been taken into protective police custody. Once abroad, this avenue may not have been available.
If proton therapy is a safer and effective treatment then they have every right to want that to be the treatment their child has. I've already said how they went about it was wrong.
Last edited by An0n0m0us; 02 September 2014 at 01:11 AM.
02 September 2014, 01:25 AM
#33
So, we all have the default position that our medical experts don't know what they are talking about.
So, the police should have released a statement along the lines of "... the medical staff have stated that the child needs to be returned, but the police have decided that based on many failed trusts we don't believe them and trust the parents know what they are doing instead" and left them to it after they find the child.
And who ultimately decides where is the best place for the child to be in?
There was a consultant on TV stating that Proton therapy is still in its infancy and doesn't work on a lot of cases and is specific from patient to patient - but do we ignore him because he works in the NHS
And how do you know if the parents know what they are doing with his machine. How do you know that as soon as the youtube video is switched off, so does the machine. Or was that youtube video made days previous. If they are going to put a youtube video on the net, they are going to make it look as they know what they are doing
So, the police should have released a statement along the lines of "... the medical staff have stated that the child needs to be returned, but the police have decided that based on many failed trusts we don't believe them and trust the parents know what they are doing instead" and left them to it after they find the child.
And who ultimately decides where is the best place for the child to be in?
There was a consultant on TV stating that Proton therapy is still in its infancy and doesn't work on a lot of cases and is specific from patient to patient - but do we ignore him because he works in the NHS
And how do you know if the parents know what they are doing with his machine. How do you know that as soon as the youtube video is switched off, so does the machine. Or was that youtube video made days previous. If they are going to put a youtube video on the net, they are going to make it look as they know what they are doing
02 September 2014, 01:44 AM
#34
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I believe you are still a police officer? Do you twist events in your job to suit your argument like you are doing in this thread? I haven't said in this case the Dr's don't know what they are doing, I simply pointed out putting blind faith in the NHS has lead to many bad things happening in the past. I have 1st hand experience of that.
The parents knew how to operate the machine because as stated by the police who found the child he wasn't found in a state of distress and if you want to belive the surgeon from Southampton hospital had his machine not been working he would have been gravely ill.
The NHS are offering proton therapy from 2018 so it's good enough for them to bring it in in 4 years time. Sadly that will be too late for many current patients. On the flip side to your argument because it's a relatively new treatment without a long history of proven success that it should be dismissed as an effective treatment?
The parents knew how to operate the machine because as stated by the police who found the child he wasn't found in a state of distress and if you want to belive the surgeon from Southampton hospital had his machine not been working he would have been gravely ill.
The NHS are offering proton therapy from 2018 so it's good enough for them to bring it in in 4 years time. Sadly that will be too late for many current patients. On the flip side to your argument because it's a relatively new treatment without a long history of proven success that it should be dismissed as an effective treatment?
Last edited by An0n0m0us; 02 September 2014 at 01:45 AM.
02 September 2014, 06:43 AM
#35
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Once this is accepted, it gives you the time to tacke the 1%, who clearly (as in the case of baby P) do not - not hound loving parents across Europe like fvcking terrorists
02 September 2014, 07:32 AM
#36
Scooby Regular
Grief and fear make people do strange things.
When my wife was dying I had a little "discussion" with her father over hemp oil. He was convinced it was a panacea to all cancers. Nothing was going to help her, her hip bones were pretty much gone. I'm fairly sure they still think I was wrong.
Irrespective of the why, how these parents have been treated and reported in the media has been atrocious.
When my wife was dying I had a little "discussion" with her father over hemp oil. He was convinced it was a panacea to all cancers. Nothing was going to help her, her hip bones were pretty much gone. I'm fairly sure they still think I was wrong.
Irrespective of the why, how these parents have been treated and reported in the media has been atrocious.
02 September 2014, 08:05 AM
#37
I believe you are still a police officer? Do you twist events in your job to suit your argument like you are doing in this thread? I haven't said in this case the Dr's don't know what they are doing, I simply pointed out putting blind faith in the NHS has lead to many bad things happening in the past. I have 1st hand experience of that.
The parents knew how to operate the machine because as stated by the police who found the child he wasn't found in a state of distress and if you want to belive the surgeon from Southampton hospital had his machine not been working he would have been gravely ill.
The NHS are offering proton therapy from 2018 so it's good enough for them to bring it in in 4 years time. Sadly that will be too late for many current patients. On the flip side to your argument because it's a relatively new treatment without a long history of proven success that it should be dismissed as an effective treatment?
The parents knew how to operate the machine because as stated by the police who found the child he wasn't found in a state of distress and if you want to belive the surgeon from Southampton hospital had his machine not been working he would have been gravely ill.
The NHS are offering proton therapy from 2018 so it's good enough for them to bring it in in 4 years time. Sadly that will be too late for many current patients. On the flip side to your argument because it's a relatively new treatment without a long history of proven success that it should be dismissed as an effective treatment?
The hospital state to police that the child needs to be returned - what would you expect the police to do? Ignore this advice under the belief that the parents must know what they are doing. If he had died as a result, would you have been happy with the police not getting involved under the belief that the parents will know what to do for the best...?
02 September 2014, 08:12 AM
#38
Do you not think its best to err on the side of caution when potentially a child's life is in question
And what about the case highlighted in Midlife's post. She took him out of hospital care to pursue 'natural herbal remedies'. Would this have been acceptable should the authorities not have got involved in this case because the parent must know best...?
02 September 2014, 08:36 AM
#41
Scooby Regular
What am i twisting......?
The hospital state to police that the child needs to be returned - what would you expect the police to do? Ignore this advice under the belief that the parents must know what they are doing. If he had died as a result, would you have been happy with the police not getting involved under the belief that the parents will know what to do for the best...?
The hospital state to police that the child needs to be returned - what would you expect the police to do? Ignore this advice under the belief that the parents must know what they are doing. If he had died as a result, would you have been happy with the police not getting involved under the belief that the parents will know what to do for the best...?
Yes they should be questioned but not taken hundreds of miles away, locked up for at least 72 hours with no charges made against them.
02 September 2014, 08:56 AM
#42
Not if he is dragged back to the UK as they have already said they can do no more for him here,
The USA have been using this technology very well, so maybe we should all chip in and pay for that instead of trying to be smart about the world.
The USA have been using this technology very well, so maybe we should all chip in and pay for that instead of trying to be smart about the world.
02 September 2014, 08:57 AM
#43
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Plus the kid's in hospital with a police guard - why are the parents in Jail awaiting a decision on Bail. Spain's judicial system seems worse than ours - and that's saying something.
And all for a couple who have not broken any laws - Apparently.
And all for a couple who have not broken any laws - Apparently.
02 September 2014, 10:17 AM
#44
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And those 1% of cases are easy to spot..... You don't know what the parents skills or intentions are at the best of times. How do you want the police to make that judgement...? Often parents will present as the perfect couple, however behind the scenes.......
Do you not think its best to err on the side of caution when potentially a child's life is in question
And what about the case highlighted in Midlife's post. She took him out of hospital care to pursue 'natural herbal remedies'. Would this have been acceptable should the authorities not have got involved in this case because the parent must know best...?
Do you not think its best to err on the side of caution when potentially a child's life is in question
And what about the case highlighted in Midlife's post. She took him out of hospital care to pursue 'natural herbal remedies'. Would this have been acceptable should the authorities not have got involved in this case because the parent must know best...?
And IF the parents had taken the child away to give it unproven "herbal remedies" that certainly would change things
but that is not the case here - and as Anonymous has said the complaint is not about "getting the police involved" it is the initial spin (life in immediate danger) and the heavy handed, and totally disproportionate approach
02 September 2014, 11:29 AM
#46
If he was an adult then this would have passed unnoticed.
Adults refuse cancer treatment day in and day out and that is their perogative as they have capacity for informed consent...adults travel abroad for cancer treatment off their own back. I have known cases where they have paid for their treatment and been left in the car park in a wheelchair because the money has gone. And then the NHS picks up the bill.
Because a child cannot consent (or refuse) treatment then someone else has to. If that's the parents then they have to make appropriate choices or be held to account by law.
If Michael Jackson hung by his fingertips from a balcony that would just be plain stupid, if he hangs his baby over the balcony and puts the baby in danger then that's different.
And that's the difference here........
Shaun
Adults refuse cancer treatment day in and day out and that is their perogative as they have capacity for informed consent...adults travel abroad for cancer treatment off their own back. I have known cases where they have paid for their treatment and been left in the car park in a wheelchair because the money has gone. And then the NHS picks up the bill.
Because a child cannot consent (or refuse) treatment then someone else has to. If that's the parents then they have to make appropriate choices or be held to account by law.
If Michael Jackson hung by his fingertips from a balcony that would just be plain stupid, if he hangs his baby over the balcony and puts the baby in danger then that's different.
And that's the difference here........
Shaun
02 September 2014, 11:43 AM
#47
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Who makes that decision for them when they have been refused treatment for whatever reason, and they know this treatment is available elsewhere?
So in their position what course of action would you adopt as an 'appropriate choice'?
Sit back and watch your child die?
Or get off your **** and fight for him?
So in their position what course of action would you adopt as an 'appropriate choice'?
Sit back and watch your child die?
Or get off your **** and fight for him?
02 September 2014, 12:02 PM
#48
Scooby Regular
I also don't agree with the assumption the NHS provides the best possible treatments. What they provide is the best possible treatment at their disposal, this doesn't mean it's the best possible treatment available for the condition which is why people travel abroad for treatment for some conditions. With the NHS it boils down to money as usual and this is what boils my blood. Stop wasting billions on European membership or foreign aid and use that cash to better the NHS so it can provide the best treatments developed across the World.
How many times do you hear on the news, whether local radio or TV etc about fund raising events for some sick kid because the best treatment they can get is only available abroad and so has to be paid for privately. That is simply wrong in my book.
They are bringing proton therapy for use in 2018 so they agree it will be fine to use then but not now yet the parents are being damned for seeking that very treatment elsewhere.
How many times do you hear on the news, whether local radio or TV etc about fund raising events for some sick kid because the best treatment they can get is only available abroad and so has to be paid for privately. That is simply wrong in my book.
They are bringing proton therapy for use in 2018 so they agree it will be fine to use then but not now yet the parents are being damned for seeking that very treatment elsewhere.
02 September 2014, 04:03 PM
#49
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I think it has been a massive overreaction by the authorities/state
They seem to simply want what they, the parents, think is best for their child
Then to be pursued by the authorities and slapped with an arrest warrant, outrageous behaviour
The police commissioners explanation was both weak and pathetic
I bet the authorities will be finding a way to back track
It was muddied somewhat by the fact that the parents are Jehovah witnesses - and it may have some daft religious dogma but that seems not to be the case
They seem to simply want what they, the parents, think is best for their child
Then to be pursued by the authorities and slapped with an arrest warrant, outrageous behaviour
The police commissioners explanation was both weak and pathetic
I bet the authorities will be finding a way to back track
It was muddied somewhat by the fact that the parents are Jehovah witnesses - and it may have some daft religious dogma but that seems not to be the case
a shocking case of state over-reach
the CPS are withdrawing the arrest warrant
Last edited by hodgy0_2; 02 September 2014 at 04:04 PM.
02 September 2014, 04:13 PM
#50
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Well at least that's some good news.
I hope the British Government will pay whatever treatment fees the family may now face by way of compensation for the appalling way they have been handled by the authorities.
I hope the British Government will pay whatever treatment fees the family may now face by way of compensation for the appalling way they have been handled by the authorities.
02 September 2014, 04:37 PM
#51
02 September 2014, 07:10 PM
#52
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And those 1% of cases are easy to spot..... You don't know what the parents skills or intentions are at the best of times. How do you want the police to make that judgement...? Often parents will present as the perfect couple, however behind the scenes.......
Do you not think its best to err on the side of caution when potentially a child's life is in question
And what about the case highlighted in Midlife's post. She took him out of hospital care to pursue 'natural herbal remedies'. Would this have been acceptable should the authorities not have got involved in this case because the parent must know best...?
Do you not think its best to err on the side of caution when potentially a child's life is in question
And what about the case highlighted in Midlife's post. She took him out of hospital care to pursue 'natural herbal remedies'. Would this have been acceptable should the authorities not have got involved in this case because the parent must know best...?
02 September 2014, 10:39 PM
#53
Once again you haven't taken on board my original reply in this thread. Of course I wanted the police to be involved with finding the boy ASAP however once found and confirming the boy was actually being well cared for and his feeding machine was connected and working there was no reason to treat the parents the way they have.
Yes they should be questioned but not taken hundreds of miles away, locked up for at least 72 hours with no charges made against them.
Yes they should be questioned but not taken hundreds of miles away, locked up for at least 72 hours with no charges made against them.
However, since they fled the country and went to Spain, they now come under their laws
We can't just assume that the parents are capable and have the child's best interests at heart. So they need some sort of legal power to return him to hospital in another country and stop the parents from taken him from medical care - hence the warrant.
02 September 2014, 10:41 PM
#54
02 September 2014, 10:44 PM
#55
Yes. I think the warrant was for 'child neglect'. If no evidence exists after interviews and investigation to support any charge then the warrant will be withdrawn. Same as in the UK, although Spanish law seems to differ slightly from UK
02 September 2014, 10:53 PM
#56
02 September 2014, 11:41 PM
#57
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Incarceration, however, is something totally different and in this case unacceptable.
03 September 2014, 02:25 AM
#58
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As the parents were apparently investigating and funding proton beam therapy.... What now? How does putting everything into limbo whilst <ahem> "fsckwits" argue about it benefit the child.
Even if the money was available, would it even be possible to get the kid to Czech for the treatment at the moment? Kind of think that two large and largely suspicious (of others) bureaucracies couldn't or wouldn't find a quick way to slice through this.
If the kid dies in a few months cue media fueled squabble about whose fault it was...
J.
Even if the money was available, would it even be possible to get the kid to Czech for the treatment at the moment? Kind of think that two large and largely suspicious (of others) bureaucracies couldn't or wouldn't find a quick way to slice through this.
If the kid dies in a few months cue media fueled squabble about whose fault it was...
J.
03 September 2014, 06:17 AM
#59
Scooby Regular
03 September 2014, 07:11 AM
#60
And as i said before, if they had stayed in the UK, the police could have taken the child into protective police custody without the need for any arrests.
However, since they fled the country and went to Spain, they now come under their laws
We can't just assume that the parents are capable and have the child's best interests at heart. So they need some sort of legal power to return him to hospital in another country and stop the parents from taken him from medical care - hence the warrant.
However, since they fled the country and went to Spain, they now come under their laws
We can't just assume that the parents are capable and have the child's best interests at heart. So they need some sort of legal power to return him to hospital in another country and stop the parents from taken him from medical care - hence the warrant.
Would you let the doctors give any of your children excessive levels of chemo that will cause serious problems as out lined by the parents?
What good would the child being in police custody do?
They were perfectly within their rights to remove their child from hospital and seek the treatment best suited to his requirements as there was no order to state otherwise in place, so it can hardly be said that they "Fled" as though they were fugitives from justice.
The UK gets worse day by day, the authorities and their enablers become more and more oppressive on a daily basis, whilst the vast majority of it's citizens exist under the delusion of freedom of speech and choice, The reality being that it does not exist once you try to exercise either beyond the strictly defined and enforced regulations, you will discover that you're living in a Police state with a system that will just process you like a piece of meat.
IMO your responses to this thread just serve to illustrate this.