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Well spotted that man. Certainly looks like a cracked valve seat to me too.
Just to decide what to do with it now. Also why has it cracked. I should think it also explains my smoking issue, as if the seat is gone the valve seal probably isn't liking it too much. At least the block seems all good. Cracked valve seat will certainly cost it a bit of compression. Either cylinder temps have gone through the roof, or the valve clearance wasn't set right maybe and it's been hammering the **** out of it.
Pure luck that I spotted it, have very little control over the camera once it's in the bore lol. Think I'll probably break it for parts to be honest. It's not bad to fix, but means engine out, heads off, redo heads, new head gaskets, intake gaskets etc etc. All ball ache and money. And I'm stick to death of fixing it now and fancy a change.
Just to decide what to do with it now. Also why has it cracked. I should think it also explains my smoking issue, as if the seat is gone the valve seal probably isn't liking it too much. At least the block seems all good. Cracked valve seat will certainly cost it a bit of compression. Either cylinder temps have gone through the roof, or the valve clearance wasn't set right maybe and it's been hammering the **** out of it.
Pure luck that I spotted it, have very little control over the camera once it's in the bore lol. Think I'll probably break it for parts to be honest. It's not bad to fix, but means engine out, heads off, redo heads, new head gaskets, intake gaskets etc etc. All ball ache and money. And I'm stick to death of fixing it now and fancy a change.
Don't give up on it matey, you will regret not finishing it if you break it. Speak with your builder/mapper and take it from there.
Don't give up on it matey, you will regret not finishing it if you break it. Speak with your builder/mapper and take it from there.
It was finished basically. And now it's broken itself again! I'll think it over but at the moment I'm sick of it and it's worth more in parts than as a whole.
Managed to get a better view on some of the scuffing. This is the worst of it. Hone still looks deeper than most of it. Hard to get a perspective on it when you're looking through the world's smallest camera.
The plot thickens. #1 definitely has a cracked intake valve seat. Had another look in #3 and all the valves looked ok. But whilst moving the camera about something caught my eye and I was shocked at what I saw to be honest. Serious damage to the bore:
I'm lost for words to be honest. Oil is passing the control rings as the piston passes over it. I've never seen anything like it.
The plot thickens. #1 definitely has a cracked intake valve seat. Had another look in #3 and all the valves looked ok. But whilst moving the camera about something caught my eye and I was shocked at what I saw to be honest. Serious damage to the bore:
I'm lost for words to be honest. Oil is passing the control rings as the piston passes over it. I've never seen anything like it.
That looks bad mate, almost looks like it's either rotted or melted through. Send pics to your engine builder
I emailed him this morning with the pics. Waiting on a response. It's not melted, it looks either like previous damage to the block that wasn't sorted after it was bored. Or there was a weak area in the casting that was also missed during machining. The fact it's half way down the bore is weird as well. Never seen anything like it to be honest. Piston tops look fine, no Det or burning / melting.
The engine has smoked since day one. I just didn't think all that much of it whilst it was running in. Once it was mapped and the boost was upped it got alot worse.
I emailed him this morning with the pics. Waiting on a response. It's not melted, it looks either like previous damage to the block that wasn't sorted after it was bored. Or there was a weak area in the casting that was also missed during machining. The fact it's half way down the bore is weird as well. Never seen anything like it to be honest. Piston tops look fine, no Det or burning / melting.
The engine has smoked since day one. I just didn't think all that much of it whilst it was running in. Once it was mapped and the boost was upped it got alot worse.
weak area sounds more likely, where was the block from?
weak area sounds more likely, where was the block from?
WMS sourced the block, it had previously been used before and was built with a 99.75 bore for me.
I've had a reply from WMS, he said the engine wouldn't have left him like that and it looks like the damage was caused by rust. I find that a bit hard to believe. He fully built the long block, timed up and sent it to me. The engine turned up wrapped up on a pallet with all holes bunged and went straight into a bone dry garage. The engine was also spun over by hand occasionally to make sure it didn't sit in the same position for any great lengths of time and I'd assume the bores were oiled when the pistons were installed.
WMS sourced the block, it had previously been used before and was built with a 99.75 bore for me.
I've had a reply from WMS, he said the engine wouldn't have left him like that and it looks like the damage was caused by rust. I find that a bit hard to believe. He fully built the long block, timed up and sent it to me. The engine turned up wrapped up on a pallet with all holes bunged and went straight into a bone dry garage. The engine was also spun over by hand occasionally to make sure it didn't sit in the same position for any great lengths of time and I'd assume the bores were oiled when the pistons were installed.
I'm not sure. They are iron liners that are cast into the block. But I kept changing the piston the pistons were in and it also looks pretty deep for rust. Especially for such a new engine. Maybe if it had been sat for years with no oil in the bores.
Most people I'm talking to are saying its likely an incursion in the casting of the block which has caused a weak area behind the liner.
I'm not sure. They are iron liners that are cast into the block. But I kept changing the piston the pistons were in and it also looks pretty deep for rust. Especially for such a new engine. Maybe if it had been sat for years with no oil in the bores.
Most people I'm talking to are saying its likely an incursion in the casting of the block which has caused a weak area behind the liner.
To be honest, that's not your fault at all. It's a fault with the long engine supplied, whether the fault was a weak casing or a machining error, the damage can't be put down to you.
WMS do a drive in drive out service and bearing in mind there is a secondary compression issue on one side of this engine also pointing to a build issue coupled with a possible cracked valve seat, I would be handing him the car complete and letting him fix it at his cost.
I wouldn't accept anything else to be honest.
Last edited by BrownPantsRacing; 26 January 2018 at 08:58 AM.
Just checked some old photos. The block was shipped to me on a pallet sat on its bell housing. I.e. timing covers straight up with all ports bunged. I also rotated the engine by hand occasionally to make sure nothing sat in the same place too long and everything moved freely. The damage is on the bottom of cylinder 3. So unless water can defy gravity to get to that point of the bore and rust it that badly and quickly the damage was there when it was built.
To be honest, that's not your fault at all. It's a fault with the long engine supplied, whether the fault was a weak casing or a machining error, the damage can't be put down to you.
WMS do a drive in drive out service and bearing in mind there is a secondary compression issue on one side of this engine also pointing to a build issue coupled with a possible cracked valve seat, I would be handing him the car complete and letting him fix it at his cost.
I wouldn't accept anything else to be honest.
I'd rather just return the engine. Get my money back and break the rest of the car tbh.
I don't care what he says, the machining marks in the images you took clearly show the damage partially machined out. This was present before machining and not rectified during machining. The block should have been scrap, not built.
Mistakes happen, they always do, but Andy at WMS needs to accept this and offer to fix it.
Does make me wonder what it could have made power wise if it was all A-OK.
I'm waiting on further replies from WMS. I just would want to return the engine, get my money back and shake hands and call it a day. I don't want to have to drag this out etc. The car is ultimately worth more in bits than it is as a whole too.
Just some more info. The engine arrived at the end of last may (2017) and was in the car running by the 15th of July (no time for rust like that to develop and in the position it is). I've emailed him again stating the engine will be coming out shortly and I want to return it for a refund.
I would bet that after machining and honing the imperfections were not noticed during inspection when they were nice and shiny. They will only be easily highlighted now due to heat and oil staining. No way rust can eat that deep in that short space of time.
Anyhow, it looks like they have been partially machined out so would have been there before machining.
Just some more info. The engine arrived at the end of last may (2017) and was in the car running by the 15th of July (no time for rust like that to develop and in the position it is). I've emailed him again stating the engine will be coming out shortly and I want to return it for a refund.
Rust wouldn’t of set in 2/3months Lol that’s if it could. Iv had a engine left in my shed for 1.5 years and it got stuck in car and was fine.
I would close this thread for now and talk with Wms if this problem is not rectified bring it back on here. Give them a chance
Pulling the engine out on Saturday (least it doesn't take long with Subaru's and I'm pretty used to it now!). Then i'll strip it to a long block and send it back to WMS and he'll take a look and we'll go from there.
The engine is out, pulled it out on Saturday, managed to squash the index finger on my left hand pretty nicely whilst doing it though . For now I've removed the clutch and flywheel and stuck it on the engine stand. I'll strip it to a long block next weekend when I can hopefully use my finger again lol.
Once the clutch and flywheel was off it was pretty obvious it had been leaking from the rear crank seal also.
24 January 2018, 06:21 PM
. For now I've removed the clutch and flywheel and stuck it on the engine stand. I'll strip it to a long block next weekend when I can hopefully use my finger again lol.