Saxo Boy

john banks

The way they have plumbed the turbos is exquisite. Fanboi turned off now, thanks for indulging thus far

alanbell

iTrader: (6)

John S8 very nice, >> Just sorting some work out and Ill have one .

john banks

Fanboi turned back on, please forgive, it is my thread after all.

Alan, I think you will love it...

I am utterly blown away after an afternoon of driving every type of astonishing road on the doorstep in Perthshire in weather from sun to rain. There wasn't a mile of it where I would have preferred the GTR, will see if I feel the same when I next drive the GTR and probably sell. Head rather than heart suggests keeping the GTR as it isn't obviously depreciating any more.

It is faster and more stable than the GTR in the wet yet I found this out without ever understeering, sounds much better, wider power band, better gearbox, rear diff fantastic as you know, suspension and brakes are amazing. Wicked compressions don't unsettle, it never feels its weight on the road.

It may seem odd that I am comparing these two but their overlap of abilities is much closer than most would imagine.

alanbell

iTrader: (6)

Allways good to get input from a owner/ driver sounds really good John enjoy

Saxo Boy

I find this almost impossible to believe but, at the same time, I've always respected your judgement. Could it be that on the road the GTR's and S8's abilities are far beyond what any sane person would access? To put a number on it, is it the case that in terms of ability to dissect a road, the GTR is 9 out of 10, the S8 7 out of 10 but you'd only every be willing to drive 5-6 out of ten (thus, the both appear as capable).

Just putting the thought out there - it just seems so implausible that you'd derive greater pleasure from hustling an S8 through the roads around Perthshire than the GTR.

Also...on the basis the GTR is my (realistic) dream car, you are really screwing with my head

P.S. If you want to see what life feels like without the GTR just loan it to me for a month

john banks

I will break down a few details and see what you make of it. Power oversteer, slip under acceleration and braking are readily accessible in the dry at road legal speeds in the GTR. Understeer on trailing throttle is possible with provocation, but under increasing throttle the rear end always moves first unless entry speed is too high. All these things are within my skill set, under the relaxed traction control setting of R mode. In the wet, it is just plain intimidating to run full remapped boost, and five years of practice haven't reduce this. What is either not within my skill set, and/or I consider unsafe/not enough room on the road is high speed power oversteer or understeer due to smoothly approaching and exceeding the lateral grip of the car which is over 1g.

For the S8, it accelerates similar to the GTR unmapped. What is missing is slip under acceleration and power oversteer, but it is not obviously replaced by understeer. There is a neutrality out of corners where the GTR would oversteer and I wonder if it gets out of the corner slower as a result, IMHO the GTR is too rear biased. S8 reminds me of the Evo! What is interesting is that in the damp, all the available performance of a 4 litre V8 running 1.1 bar is deployed cleanly, in a straight line or out of corners where the GTR scrabbles deploying similar power in the dry and in the damp moves about under you.

So at significant speeds I'm not pulling the steady 0.9-1g in corners the cars are capable of, in the GTR 0.8g feels enough, leaves a margin for error. So that is literally 8/10 of the ultimate high speed cornering force I would use. Lower speeds or playing with a little yaw on corner exit to balance is fun, but there are so many more options to correct a slow in fast out compared to fast in and maybe crash, especially with the weights of performance cars nowadays.

A bit of excess power resulting in oversteer at relatively low speed as beloved of RWD enthusiasts is not the limit some think it is, the steady state smooth cornering at higher speeds is, but leaves no safety margin. This low speed power oversteer is abundant in powerful BMWs and the GTR, but I don't miss it as it just causes instability to wet road progress and scrabbling/going sideways out of junctions. Fun, but not the real limit which is much scarier IMHO.

In summary, 8/10ths based on objective lateral g measurements then. What about you?

Just to add, if I get in the Golf GTI, it seems easy to exceed the real limit after driving the GTR. That is because it just squeals and moves a bit and isn't going to bite you with sudden movement at the rear end putting you into the hedge. So my 10/10th limit is a hot hatch. I don't find playing around that particularly satisfying though. Bottom line is, despite enjoying a bit of low speed oversteer, I'd give it up for stability and traction, and for a road car, at the real limit I prefer gentle understeer. That is why fast Audis seem to float my boat far more than reviews would suggest they do.

Saxo Boy

Very interesting read John. It sounds like the GTR is a little bit wild, which appeals. Reading that, I found myself somewhat reminded of the short drives I had in my mates Exige S2 and - a few years later - his Sagaris.

The Exige would pull it's knickers down within the first 10ft and show you everything it had. My mate screamed at me to slow down by the first corner but the car communicated so transparently that I knew exactly where it's limits were. It cut its path through the road like a hot knife through butter and was both joyous to drive and effective.

The Sagaris was nowhere near as effective on typical Scottish roads. However, the first 10ft in the Sag were a whole different story. It squirmed, squatted and intimidated in a way that brought a grin to the face and a few extra beats to the heart. Ultimately, it was a perfectly manageable car but you always felt it was capable of biting hard if you took liberties.

I guess in life we seek different things at different times. My old VTS wouldn't know where my (warm hatch) Leon FR went on a twisty road; modern tyres, chassis and suspension ensure it is far faster. However, it never really threatens to put you through a hedge backwards and, crazy as it sounds, I miss that. I miss the S2000 for the same reason.

It's all situation dependent though; I can fully appreciate that at certain times/stages in a driving lifetime the effortless and effective deployment of speed holds greater appeal. From my perspective though (S2000 > ST220 > Volvo T5 > Leon FR), I think I'm drawn back to something that's just a little bit wild. On the basis that I assumed it would have to be soaking wet to get a GTR to play, I'm pleased to read you can get it moving in the dry

stevebt

iTrader: (8)

21" tyres will be cheap to replace Its a small matter but if you drive hard I bet near £300 a corner for descent rubber from an independent supplier .

john banks

Looks to be about £200 a corner for Goodyears. The GTR is about £360 a corner.

john banks

Have you driven a tuned R35 Xline?

Saxo Boy

To be fair, flicking a tail out is something I would allow myself to indulge in once in a blue moon. Deploying 20-100mph off a roundabout in 6 seconds is something I'd do daily......Stage 3/4 GTR seems about perfect for that

john banks

Re economy, the 4.0 V8 petrol is doing 20mpg on cold start 14 mile run, whereas the 3.0 V6 diesel did 30mpg driven similarly. Both effectively the same car.

I think my 3.0 flat six Legacy which weighed 20% less was about 22mpg.

Re image, the Audi just blends in, most people are wondering where the GTR has gone. One mechanic patient suggested a nice C63 they had in I might like, the Audi went completely unnoticed for its performance potential. Exactly what I wanted People are letting me out at junctions no problems and I keep a nice distance from bumpers, use my indicators I think someone must have cut my **** off.

Evolution Stu

iTrader: (2)

Great review - one of the best and most interesting ive read.

john banks

My farmer friend would say that is all a load of "pish", get in it, drive it and see if he could erase the rubber markings on the side wall and then tell me based on that if it is any good I prefer to hide my inadequate driving behind long winded justifications. Although he did fit AP six pots to his Subaru, he didn't tend to be hard on brakes at Knockhill, he just used the tyre sidewalls to scrub off speed.

Saxo Boy

Hahahha, I remember that.... was there not a photo of the incident as well, or am I just imagining that?

john banks

Probably lost in the mists of time. Presently sorting out a decent SIM card for google services including traffic and earth overlays/street view. It seems that EE PAYG with £5 top up gives you 100MB/month forever, but I bought the data sim which doesn't seem to have that. The car itself will do texts and calls from its sim and create a wifi hotspot. Aerials seem much better than my phone.

john banks

Still not driven the GTR again, it has been raining but will take it out in the dry.

Interestingly bringing up the boost gauge on the S8 shows they are clearly holding back the midrange boost and increasing it a little at say 5000 RPM to flatten the torque curve. Driving it, the torque curve feels as flat as you'd expect from a typical VAG turbocharged engine, but the boost curve looks like it is inverted to how you'd tune a Japanese car

However, against increasing the boost is that it is really well balanced in the wet, with great stability and just enough torque to be interesting.

Also it doesn't appear to have MAF sensors. Looks like three boost pressure sensors are used to model airflow.