frayz

iTrader: (7)

So what do you suggest we do? Don't use any of the pro mappers incase someone one day many moons ago decided they had a problem??
Every one of them will at some time not pleased everyone.

Forums are 10% fact 90% crap 90% of the time.
For want of a better word, every single person on a forum is effectively "that guy down the pub".

Would you take a recommendation off him to have your engine management altered?

Is he a well spoken chap with a flat cap and short tipple or is he a fat bloke in stained tshirt and a row of empty pints?

Read into it what you will, or leave the damn car alone like the little men @ Fuji Heavy Industries intended it to be.

edsel

iTrader: (2)

What a load of randomness and irrelevant tosh to the original dummy spit.

dave_t

iTrader: (1)

Frayz, Really helpful mate.
1. Read into it what you will, or leave the damn car alone like the little men @ Fuji Heavy Industries intended it to be.
2. Forums are 10% fact 90% crap 90% of the time.

What i am suggesting is a Mapping Shoot Out would promote the better, honest Mappers (which is good for them and in return good for people looking for trusted Mappers).

If you read you will see that I agree with "Every one of them will at some time not pleased everyone", I have also highlighted that even the best mappers can result in a component failure. Also I have a mapper that I already trust.

However this convoluted and repetitive method of what is quite frankly "playground slagging" does nothing for good mappers, nor genuine Scooby owners. That my friend, whether its dressed in a flat cap or XXL beer stained shirt is FACT.

frayz

iTrader: (7)

Agreed

frayz

iTrader: (7)

Shall we get Noris Mcwhirter in ?

TinyTim

iTrader: (3)

Well there's a few minutes of my life i'll never get back.

The Rig

iTrader: (13)

What seems to be missed by some is, My issue wasnt about not being "pleased" with say, only achieving x bhp/torque, my issue was complete incompetence and a basic adjustment was fundamentally "forgotten" hence the car performed like it only had 2 coil packs on Boost,At 9 am before the Map i had a car that drove well an hit total boost smoothly, at 10am after remap i had a car that hit part boost, bit more boost then a bit more then all of it in the same gear and was told,might be you boost solenoid, might be x,y,z, funny how it suddenly was at fault after the map or in my case, nothing was at fault, only the procedure i had just unertaken.(Read post 35)Now i know what i know about what needs to be done when mapping, i wish i could of spotted the mistake and pointed the poor chap in the right direction,But Alas, i was under the influence of a Pro mapper and trusted his word and workmanship.

I hope my misfortune has been an experience others can maybe avoid

netbeast

I see that you are here just for the noise, because i everything you have said, you have just promoted your ignorance, even to the level, where you haven't read what it is all about.

Regarding your statement of the car being technically sound before the mapping - what does a low wastegate duty cycle have to do with half past dead engine?

what does making the ECU run MAFless and not shunting the connector, yet leaving the MAF sensor connected, thus allowing it to mess with the map have to do with a half past dead engine?

clearly those are the short-comings of said technic/mechanic/engineer, call it as you wish.

If the person in question does this just because they have an X amount of hours in the day, but an X+2 customers, yet he wants to pocket the profits by cutting corners - it clearly is not the customer's fault, is it?

dave_t

iTrader: (1)

Yep, again.....

Let me put my suggestion another way?

How about giving the mappers that know their stuff and are confident in their work the opportunity to show their skills, grab some fecking respect, as well as some deserved advertising?

The Rig

iTrader: (13)

53

iTrader: (41)

Not directed at the OP as this has diverted somewhat

Mappers shoot out lol, What would be the point, people know who to avoid, and if you don't you haven't done your homework ! There's isn't a venue big enough to accommodate some of the egos in one place I have seen some proper school boy errors and lazy block mapping shyte over my long impreza ownership.

Just build a good relationship with a quality mapper and you can create a great car that you both feel has been worth investing time and money in. These one map one time purchases are a myth IMHO. If your map doesn't need adjusting at some point for something then you either don't have the proper ECU monitoring or it's the dullest sh1tist map ever. And a quality mapper won't charge you for the adjustment if it's a map correction rather than an upgrade. Multiple changes though and they probably are ****

Also if you sign up for a GB mapping day with 6 other cars then you are a fool. When you go for mapping you never know what will be found or what will unfold, you need 100% of a mappers attention mechanically and technically without 5 other people looking at their watches. This IMHO is where criticism of the cost of mapping is justified when it's cash cow GB day

Nothing wrong with road mapping bar the legality, the base map can be set up on the rollers, but power dependent it's just as easily on the road IMHO.

**** happens and sometimes it's a good thing Rig mate I've certainly learnt 10 times what I would have after my experience with a bellend with a business model based on a bag of talent he didn't possess

Blue by You

iTrader: (23)

How would a mapping shootout work?
One car for all to map and test on one dyno?
So what self respecting mapper will subject a map he has just installed to the scrutiny of the next hot shot to have a go?
Doesn't the mapper with the first shot at a given car have the upper hand? He will (should) see the best gains in all round performance.
If the test engine ***** itself, do we blame the unlucky guy who's peddling the car at the time, or do we blame the jockey who last had a go at wringing its neck?
Who and how would you assess the end result for the best outcome? Outright power, driveability, etc.

Just a few questions that need a sound answer before anything like this has a chance of ever seeing the light of day I would think.

Personally I wouldn't be the least bit interested in such a pointless escapade.

adz556

iTrader: (5)

I gave Duncan my 2005 wrx with 44k on it and FSH. It had no issues and was a completely standard car when I bought it. I had fitted a straight through exhaust, Sti top mount and an induction kit. Duncan raised no issues with the car when he trial ran it on the rollers and gave it back to me with 280bhp print out from Surrey rolling road. Within 100 miles the photos attached were the damage where it was found to have ran lean. Nothing else to say

Maz

iTrader: (34)

I would agree with all of that Stu.

I would also be interested to hear Stu Anderson's thoughts on this. His knowledge is encyclopediac and would separate the wheat from the chaff.

DantheMan2605

i love reading threads like this while pinching one out

dave_t

iTrader: (1)

53,
some very valid points there, that being said:
1. Go ahead "oh wise one", name your mapper and prepare to be knocked down in flames (as sadly any dull f#cker can do that, whether they are knowledgeable, relying on pub talk or just simply making up sh#t).
2. "experience with a bellend with a business model based on a bag of talent he didn't possess", name him and you'll probably get 'he's great'....

Not for one minute knocking you 53, but saying that this is the nature of threads like this, which does absolutely nothing for anyone!

Blue, obviously thought would be required.
1. Every one of them will at some time not pleased everyone.
absolutely no difference between X has mapped my car, Y can you tweak it.
a base map can be reloaded after their go?
2. Doesn't the mapper with the first shot at a given car have the upper hand? He will (should) see the best gains in all round performance.
You sure?
3. If the test engine ***** itself, do we blame the unlucky guy who's peddling the car at the time, or do we blame the jockey who last had a go at wringing its neck?
A good mapper should not map to destruction!
4. Who and how would you assess the end result for the best outcome? Outright power, driveability, etc.
Most know that power as you put it at some unnatural RPM is not the be all and end all (again many on here do not understand the basics, but still hunt for a mapper). A variety of things could be easily tested, from outright power to real world stuff like 50-80 in X gear or 'whatever', driveabilty issues are easily measured as long as a set driver (or more) is used.

Everyone, please remember that I am just trying to be supportive of good mappers and at no point have i put down (or held up) any mapper.

p.s. well done everyone, its nice to see that no-one has got totally arsey over this (nice change for SNet )

dave_t

iTrader: (1)

No Vindaloo last night then, as one gentle push & the thread could be over in seconds

TinyTim

iTrader: (3)

Put it this way. How often do you see a thread reporting good service?

Hardly ever.


How often do you see threads where someone is having a moan?


Far more often.



People are more likely to have a whinge about poor service than good, thats just the way it is.

Nobody is perfect, everyone makes mistakes, even the best mappers out there, and im sure they'd admit to it. There's very little point having a 'shoot out' for mappers.

MartynJ

I've been quite rightly staying out of this thread for many reasons, however the need has arisen to correct somebody on their fatal flaw and you're the lucky boy.
Mappers do not remove customers narrowband (93-00)or OE psuedo wideband (01 on) lambdas to tune cars. We may however when tuning turn them off to get the fueling close using our wideband and then turn them back on and monitor the fuel correction trims to ensure it's within spec.

Generally speaking unless you have an aftermarket ecu with closed loop wideband fueling, the tuners wideband has no interaction with the ecu and therefore it doesn't matter a **** that it's not left on the vehicle.
We could of course advise everyone who is tuning their Newage car to replace every OE wideband prior to tuning, but at £274+ vat they are unlikely to be keen.

Carnut

There are lots of threads with people saying thank you for one thing or another.

The Rig

iTrader: (13)

Granted everyone makes mistakes,Mistakes i can put up with if and when noticed were rectified speedily and with some ounce of an apology, but in my case,Apart from a few of the other basic "mistakes" that occured,to be ignored, A base line basic fundamental process that should of been done before the job was started was not carried out. (Post number 35).

howes124

iTrader: (11)

I would never use duncan again, the list is long the things i found out after my map or 3, got some crap about faulty this and that, those it was never mentioned at the time, got charged for a 3rd map as he told me faulty coil i never actually changed the thing as garage found nothing wrong with it !!, plus blamed eBay purchases those all but one thing was new and top spec lol.

yabbadoo4

iTrader: (8)

bottom line here is choose your mapper wisely, do some digging on them first. andy f mapped my wagon a few years back and it made 315 bhp on a td05 and drove superb with no problems and pulled like a train, i was very happy with it. now some other mappers might have got a bit more from it as i read a lot and see results posted on here all the time so some others might have squeezed say 330 from it. but it had 80,000 on the clock at the time so was andy being cautious and not being too greedy and being a bit sympathetic on the mechanicals? id like to think so. you see andy f was tuning cars long before he bought a laptop and ecutek software back in 2002 and for me thats an important point. he knew engines long before the mapping revolution came along as do a few of the other well respected mappers who are involved in what id call "proper" engine tuning ie getting oily hands and scraped knuckles under the bonnet. its all well and good being an IT geek and understanding the software side of things but you have to know engines to really understand what the mouse clicks are doing to the engine. the point of this post and all the others ive seen like it over the years seems to be about accountability and recourse if something goes wrong. any decent mapper surely would want to rectify a problem with his name on it? i certainly would as reputations mean a lot in this game (as this thread is proving) id like to think if i was in this game id tuck away a couple of grand in an account to deal with any problems that might arise where my work was in question and damaged a customers engine. sure you could blame a component failure and shrug your shoulders but surely with the fortunes being made by these guys a little slush fund to deal with something that might only happen once in a blue moon makes sense? anyone can have a bad day at the office to be fair but customer service and how you deal with it is what makes the difference to people.

Infected by sti

iTrader: (6)

? Everytime I've had a map with differing mappers they have removed the oe sensor on both classic and newage cars and replace it with their wideband whilst mapping in it's place, so this isn't correct?

Genuine question btw

Blue by You

iTrader: (23)

Isn't that the whole point of the argument?
However you look at it, if the mapping is under-done or an over-kill somebody is going to be dis-satisfied.

To get back to the mapping shootout, how could you possibly judge one result against another?
One mapper makes 0.25BHP more than the next, does that make him better or more of a risk taker?
If a different mapper makes 25BHP more is he 100 times better than the guy who only got 0.25BHP, or a bigger dick head?
If it's not outright power that wins the dubious accolade of 'Top Mapper' then what parameter are you going to use to judge the winner? Driveability? In whose opinion?
Fuel economy? Who cares?
Longevity of the engine? Well, best of luck with that one.

Can't you see why I say it's a fruitless exercise?

Blue by You

iTrader: (23)

I have had my car mapped many times by two people I regard as top guys in the mapping game, and never seen that.

MartynJ

It isn't the norm.
Most commonly used wideband kits come with a probe you stick up the tail pipe allowing you to leave the stock sensors in place.
They need to be monitored when turned on too or how do you check the fuel trims being applied by them.

BrownPantsRacing

iTrader: (6)

That's how Dunc did mine with the probe in the exhaust!

dave_t

iTrader: (1)

Crikey Moses!

It was a simple thought might just finally lessening all this absolutely futile "he's better than him" which is responded with "thats sh#t". The better/confident people out there getting good advertising, lessening the difficulty that is presented to less knowledgeable punters (actually looking for their first mapper). This would seem a good option to dispel some of the not so good and finally put the good guys up on a proper well earned pedestal, i.e. actually being supportive of the right people!

Remember, if you were looking for some new brake pads & i did a decent back to back test, you'd be interested. Now if you found out the brake pads you have had refused to be involved, we'll you can scour SNET and rely on the 10% that someone else mentioned is true (obviously you know the 10% correct, 90% incorrect).

I'm no expert in this field, however if i was a good mapper that
a: felt strongly about quality of my work
b: genuinely felt p#ssed off about some negatives that have been posted around (not saying this is the OPs case)
c: F#cked off with 'so say' tuners ponsing in and out
d: was and was given the oportunity to PROVE IT.
I'd be there, because it is good advertising and therefore beneficial to me.

Now if I was a **** mapper:
Needless to say I would not go near the idea !

With regards to "how/why" details, since when is peak BHP is the only result of a RR.
As for details, I have not had chance to complete my thesis
It was an idea which I think could be made to work admittedly with some further thought.

As for "Can't you see why I say it's a fruitless exercise?", not if i am good mapper and am prepared to prove it, gain recognition, earn more money.

Alan Jeffery

Coming from an old fashioned tuning background I tend to refer to basic principles. At the end of the day all you're doing is correcting ignition timing, fuelling and boost.
Mapping means taking yourself off to load sites and making sure the right number is in the box. A bit like Captain Cook having to go to Australia to map it.
You therefore have to be able to go to whatever site you wish as often and for as long as you need.
It's been my contention that in many circumstances you can't guarantee being able to do that if you're out and about on public roads. Therefore interpolation may be utilised for more of the time than it should.
We find that hardly ever can you just map a car without fixing stuff that needs fixing. Therefore you'd expect to find your mapper at some stage under the car rather than just being sat in it. Assuming he can be arsed..
If your mapper suggests that you meet him at a dyno cell with a decent workshop attached to it I'd say you're on to the correct way of doing it.
Me, I believe in the old scripture of "minimum best" which is the minimum of boost and timing to get where your turbo/engine/injectors should be taking you to. That's why we start low and creep up, rather than just banging in max boost from the off.
This line of work isn't easy, why make life more difficult by tying one hand behind your back before you start?