Geezer

Ironic you should mention 'the real world' Pete, in the real world, by the time these kids get to secondary school, the behaviour and abuse by their parents is ingrained, and your utopian idea of turning them around when in a class room full of like minded thugs is simply ot going to happen.

I'm not saying these people cannot be turned around, just not in the environment that exists in a school. There's too much peer pressure both in school and the areas they live in.

Also, what about teachers who teach the real thickies? Not even badly behaved, but most schools will have a section like this, and no amount of teaching cannot put there what nature did not provide.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

"Oh, they'll be rewarded by knowing they have done a good job".......HMG.

"Then leave for industry or a richer school where they don't have to teach "thickies" much".........alcazar.

So.......who gets that class the next year? And the one after that?

pslewis

Quite correct, they are judged on the 'Package' they bring to the profession.

That includes discipline, parental engagement, marking, lesson plans, etc.

A binman is judged on the way he does all of his job, all of its component parts, does he leave the street clean? Is the wagon cleaned before each shift? Is he fit enough for the task? Does he engage with the public well? Does he hit his targets?

Why should a Teacher only be judged on one part of the job? Considering just 23 hours a week are spent Teaching - and they claim to spend 37 hours a week doing 'other' stuff - then that 'other' stuff needs to be assessed and judged - surely?

We seem to be at dispute over whether Teachers are a special case and deserve special treatment ..... I truly believe that they want to be judged in the same way other professionals are judged, they have earned that right.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Again with the fake figures.

School opens: 0900.
School closes for lunch: 1200.
School reopens:1300.
School closes to pupils: 1530

Now I make that five and a half hours, so twenty-seven and a half hours a week. Even with non-contact time, that's twenty-five hours actual teaching.

And NO teacher is judged simply on their classroom work. The head/OFSTED would also check all lesson plans, weekly, and ensure that all marking etc is up to date.

So what you are suggesting is ALREADY happening, as is the withholding of increments due to insufficient progress...since last year, actually.

And most teachers welcomed it.........although a few are now realising that increments can be withheld to save money too........

kevfawcett

iTrader: (7)

I am not against them being paid according to their performance, just saying that it's not easy to judge each aspect of what they do. How do you quantify how well a teacher speaks to parents if the parent refuses to attend the school? What about all of the heads of department that hand all of their work to their understudies, but still take the credit for it?

With regards to working hours, I'm not sure if you meant 37hrs extra or total, but as a total that is miles off what my Mrs does. 8-5 at the very earliest then at least 2-3hrs at home every week night and a couple of hours on a Sunday. I'm not sure how other schools work, but she doesn't really get a dinner break as she's either supervising in the dinner hall, the 'amber zone', running a catch up class for the GCSE coursework, or one of many other things.
I'm sure there are a lot of teachers who don't do them sort of hrs but a lot do as well.

I agree that most teachers want to be judged on their performance, but ONLY if there is an accurate and fair way of doing it, which I can't see happening any time soon

pslewis

I'm so glad that we finally agree, at least, on the ballpark number of hours contracted.

You say 25 hours a week Teaching, I say 23 hours a week .... I won't lose sleep over 2 hours.

I was losing sleep over you claiming that I was talking rubbish, when I know damned well it's 23 hours .................. but, I can let you take a balloon away and settle for 25 hours.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

At last...you accept that your figures are wrong.
Thought you were an engineer? Isn't maths your strong point?

pslewis

No, you missed what I said - once more.

I said that I will let your statement that Teachers work 25 hours per week to slide - I know it is 23, but I have let you take a balloon away with you as I have popped every single one of your others.

neil-h

Well that strikes me as a gloriously inaccurate sweeping statement.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Another lie.

How many more, Pete?

You used to be semi-honourable, but this hatred of teachers has made you simply nasty, and coming over as not very intelligent.

Get over it. Join the real world again.

pslewis

You agreed that the hours Teachers teach is 25 per week - I thank you for that acknowledgement (it is actually a Max of 23, but I'm letting you have an easy win - don't knock it!). You said I was lieing about this, turns out I wasn't then?

Now, all I need is for you to agree that most Teachers are entitled to two pay rises per year and we can move step by step to the truth - yes?

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Not a chance I will accept your lies, and nor will most people on here.

If you insist that 23 is the same as 25, which COULD actually be 27.5 in any given week, since non-contact time isn't guaranteed, I fear for your maths.

You've done this to death now and been shown to be making stuff up, so let it go.

pslewis

You can't even agree that most Teachers get 2 pay rises a year?

Well, that says it all really ......

I shall now remove the balloon I gave you and revert back to the truth that contact time is 23 hours per week, maximum. You have lost your chance for me to allow your lies to slide for the purposes of goodwill.

Everyone can see that Teachers move up the payscale each year, without fail .... they then move onto another payscale called the Upper Payscale and up that too ... that is in addition to the agreed annual payrise.

That makes TWO payrises per year - I do think your maths needs updating, not mine!

However, I'm tired of your smoke and mirrors - I gave you a balloon and you took it like a spoilt brat - I have now popped your balloon and closed the matter.

neil-h

You do realise that insisting someone else is lieing doesn't make what you say the truth right?

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

You are still wrong Pete.

It's 25 hours directed time per week, 27.5 if you include non-contact time. NOT 23.
Where you are getting 23 from is beyond me.

The maximum working week for teachers is NOT defined in law...it can be whatever it takes to get the job done.

And the job HAS to be done, BY LAW: all marking and lesson plans HAVE to be up to date and current.

Teachers are lucky to get ONE payrise a year these days, let alone two. For the last three years, they got nothing, and this year have been given 1%.

That makes the 26th year in succession that they have had a payrise LESS than the posted rate of inflation, which, as we know is another lie.

Deferred pay is NOT a payrise and is finite...as you well know.

Deferred pay can now be refused...and is being.

Any more lies you need me to deal with?

If not, go back to your overpaid job "researching" atomic energy...LOL

pslewis

Maybe you haven't heard of the EU Working Time Directive then?

You and your lies are getting rather tiresome now ... however, please read on ...

Headteachers should review all workers working hours against the regulations on an annual basis, including hours worked in other employment where known.

When considering working hours of teachers and members of the leadership group, overall hours worked should be assessed.

When considering the hours of staff entitled to NJC conditions, overtime hours actually worked (i.e. not hours paid as part of lettings agreement) should be included.

If this review indicates that hours in excess of 48 per week over a 17 week period may be or are being worked this should be brought to the attention of the employee and the impact on the employee’s health and the education of the children should be considered jointly.

If, following this review, the employee wishes to exercise his/her right to voluntarily work in excess of the hours stated in the regulations the Headteacher should write to the employee pointing out this right and asking the employee to sign an opt-out agreement.

The school and the employee should each retain a copy of the opt-out agreement and a further copy should be forwarded to Schools Personnel Team.

Once an individual has signed an opt-out agreement he/she must maintain a daily timesheet which should be handed to his/her manager weekly.

The school should retain such records in the event of health concerns arising at a later date.

So, another of your lies put to bed ....... pop goes another balloon.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

LOL: it slightly pops YOUR lie about 23 hours.

It does NOTHING to mine.

The law is simple:
1265 hours MINIMUM.
NO legal maximum.

1988 Education act.

pslewis

So, Teachers are not subject to the EU Working Time Directive then?

Is that what your saying?

You have lost the plot ... give up now ... POP goes another of your balloons, I shall soon have to take every single one off you if you don't behave yourself ......

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

No, they are not, the government opted them out.

As have done a LOT of folk in the UK.

Really, Pete...you have more time than sense.

neil-h

Really? I did try to actually research that and had no joy finding anything confirming your point (about teachers specifically).

pslewis

Neil ..... there is nothing as he is once again telling lies ........

Turning now to the alcazar lies about contact time - the figures below show it sits at the 23 hours I have stated all through the thread ....... I now have the evidence, you can see how the hours are broken down here:-

Use of hours Minutes Hours:-

Registration 25 mins x 190 days = 79.2 hours

Mid session breaks 5 x 20 mins x 38 weeks = 3800 mins, 63.3 hours

Teaching time (includes PPA time):-

25 lessons x 55 mins =1375 mins x 38 weeks 870.8 hours >(22.91 hours per week!)<<<<<<<<<< As I said .....

INSET days 5 hours x 5 days 25 hours

Duties:-

• 10 mins start/end of day + 5 mins either end of lunch 30 mins x 190 days = 5700 mins 95 hours

Parents’ Meetings/open evenings 3 hours x 5 days = 15 hours

Staff Meetings 1 hour x 37 weeks = 37 hours

Pupil support /individual pupil issues 1 x 55 mins x 38 weeks =2090 mins 34.8 hours

TOTAL 1220.1 hours <<<<<< this is the true directed time as a Contingency of 44.9 hours is factored in*

OVERALL TOTAL 1265 hours

* can be adapted for teacher with TLRs and management and leadership time

This is MAX the Head and/or Management can direct a Teacher to do - you will note that 22.91 hours is the actual Teaching time .... as I have maintained all along.

Please also note the contingency of almost 45 hours which is there as slack - very rarely used!

So, there you have it - the absolute facts, they cannot be disputed.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Bullsh!t.

pslewis

Really? Is that it? Pathetic

wrx300scooby

+1 he just isn't worth the effort, hence the few posts I've done relating to him.

hodgy0_2

What is it with this obsession with "contracted hours", sounds like race to the bottom bullsh1tt

a very very old friend has retrained as a teacher,

Fvck me he works soo hard it is frightening, contracted hours or not - worth every penny

pslewis

I've said again and again they are worth every penny - why then do they feel the need to strike?

hodgy0_2

Are they having their terms of employment altered

pslewis

No - Pensions are not part of your Terms of Employment.

A fairer way of pay increases is what's proposed (and objected to by the NUT) - the NUT and some, very few actually, think that bad Teachers should have the same pay rise as the best Teacher ....... I don't.

All Teachers move up the pay spine unopposed, it has always been that way, poor Teachers and good Teachers.

Bad Teachers are never sacked - they are moved on to other schools (this is why the Head should not be an ex Teacher, see?) ....... a business leader should be in charge in my opinion - Heads Teachers can look after the well being of the Teachers, but the business leader to bring some real world to the running of the school, the budget and the hiring/firing.

Most Heads would love this to be the way in all honesty - they do not like the harder part of their jobs ....... they went into Teaching because their pastoral instincts are powerful and strong.

kevfawcett

iTrader: (7)

What makes you think a leader from a random business sector is a better judge of a teacher, than a head teacher?

I've decided, you're off your rocker

chocolate_o_brian

iTrader: (22)

You've only just realised?

Pete's been the master wind-up merchant for years on here. Whether it's teachers, firemen, the Tories, Currys, mobile phone contracts.... Always gets a bite through deliberate means and folk fall into his traps time and time again.

Intelligent chap that argues cleverly to spin things in his favour