Tire Wear---Your Diagnosis Please
12 May 2009, 10:10 PM
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Tire Wear---Your Diagnosis Please
Hi
Got a GB270 which is totally standard. Had 10k service at 9,700 miles with tyre wear measured etc.
Now covered 600 miles since and noticed inside of both front tyres have suddenly started to wear badly
The wear is only on the last 30mm of the inside of the tyres and there are high and low spots around the circumference.
Measured the tyre depth again and they match the measurements on the service sheet
The tyres are Pirelli P Zero's as fitted as standard
Gone from this
To this in 600 miles
Took the car back to garage and they can't understand whats up with it so they've booked me in for full geometry check and adjustment
more £££'s 
I have never mounted a kerb with the car or curbed it so can't understand why the tyres should suddenly start wearing like this
Anyone on here had this problem or have any ideas....cheers
Got a GB270 which is totally standard. Had 10k service at 9,700 miles with tyre wear measured etc.
Now covered 600 miles since and noticed inside of both front tyres have suddenly started to wear badly
The wear is only on the last 30mm of the inside of the tyres and there are high and low spots around the circumference.
Measured the tyre depth again and they match the measurements on the service sheet
The tyres are Pirelli P Zero's as fitted as standard
Gone from this
To this in 600 miles
Took the car back to garage and they can't understand whats up with it so they've booked me in for full geometry check and adjustment
more £££'s I have never mounted a kerb with the car or curbed it so can't understand why the tyres should suddenly start wearing like this
Anyone on here had this problem or have any ideas....cheers
12 May 2009, 10:32 PM
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Balancing ? Does the car vibrate ? They look worn in the first pic, but that's severe...
Looks like the "toe-in" is wrong.... but I'm no expert.
Let us know what they say !
dunx
Looks like the "toe-in" is wrong.... but I'm no expert.
Let us know what they say !
dunx
12 May 2009, 10:40 PM
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Cheers dunx
No mate there is no vibration at all and have now swapped the fronts to the rears etc and still no vibration.
Not very technical I know but when I feel the temperature of the tyre with my hand the inside tread is hot and the rest of the tyre just warm.
No mate there is no vibration at all and have now swapped the fronts to the rears etc and still no vibration.
Not very technical I know but when I feel the temperature of the tyre with my hand the inside tread is hot and the rest of the tyre just warm.
12 May 2009, 10:42 PM
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I would expect feathering if it was the toe but I may be wrong. If there was a geometry problem I would expect it to wear evenly, and a balancing problem I would expect to be more random.
The high and low spots are unusual and I would be looking at the top mounts myself. It seems almost camber like given that the worn area is at an angle but the rest of the tyre still seems true to its original form.
The only other though is something rubbing
The high and low spots are unusual and I would be looking at the top mounts myself. It seems almost camber like given that the worn area is at an angle but the rest of the tyre still seems true to its original form.
The only other though is something rubbing
12 May 2009, 11:04 PM
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Thanks JonMc and scoobyboy for the quick reply
No there is nothing rubbing and the mounts seem ok.
So it looks like the camber has gone adrift. Don't know how as I haven't hit anything hard, curbs or pot holes so hopefully the geometry check and adjustment will sort it out!
Lesson learnt to check the tyre tread pattern every week when I wash the car as in 600 miles has nearly destroyed these tyres!!!!
No there is nothing rubbing and the mounts seem ok.
So it looks like the camber has gone adrift. Don't know how as I haven't hit anything hard, curbs or pot holes so hopefully the geometry check and adjustment will sort it out!
Lesson learnt to check the tyre tread pattern every week when I wash the car as in 600 miles has nearly destroyed these tyres!!!!
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13 May 2009, 03:23 PM
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Allan
I hear what you are saying.
Can anyone here tell me where is the adjustment for the camber as I'll take a look and see if there is any evidence of it being tampered with
I'm a bit pi$$ed that this is going to cost £150 for the geometry and then 2 new tyres for 600 miles
cheers
I hear what you are saying.
Can anyone here tell me where is the adjustment for the camber as I'll take a look and see if there is any evidence of it being tampered with
I'm a bit pi$$ed that this is going to cost £150 for the geometry and then 2 new tyres for 600 miles
cheers
23 May 2009, 12:31 AM
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Right guys an up-date
Had the 4 wheel alignment done today and they have now set it to the settings issued by Prodrive for the GB270 model or so they tell me
s
Here are the results to the check and adjustment
Ok this shows that the camber on both fronts were out 45 degrees but what I don't get is these settings of
N/S/F Toe set to 1 degree IN and the O/S/F set to 1 degree OUT
N/S/R Toe set to 1 degree IN and the O/S/R set to 1 degree OUT
I'm really confused now as I understand it my car is now set up for 'crabbing' down the road
This being the case why isn't it set at both wheels set at parallel or is it someone couldn't be ar$$ed to centralize the steering wheel 
I say this because I've had this happen on 2 other cars to this
The other query is why are there no Castor results like I see on other posts on here surely any adjustments alter the other settings so have to be re-adjusted
I maybe totally wrong about all this
Any advice please would be gratefully received
PS. I know the camber on the rear is 'all to ****' but they tell me there is no adjustment without fitment of adjustable links. That's a mod for the future and the rear tyres were perfectly worn even before I swapped them so can wait for now
Had the 4 wheel alignment done today and they have now set it to the settings issued by Prodrive for the GB270 model or so they tell me
sHere are the results to the check and adjustment
Ok this shows that the camber on both fronts were out 45 degrees but what I don't get is these settings of
N/S/F Toe set to 1 degree IN and the O/S/F set to 1 degree OUT
N/S/R Toe set to 1 degree IN and the O/S/R set to 1 degree OUT
I'm really confused now as I understand it my car is now set up for 'crabbing' down the road
This being the case why isn't it set at both wheels set at parallel
or is it someone couldn't be ar$$ed to centralize the steering wheel I say this because I've had this happen on 2 other cars to this The other query is why are there no Castor results like I see on other posts on here
surely any adjustments alter the other settings so have to be re-adjusted I maybe totally wrong about all this
Any advice please would be gratefully received
PS. I know the camber on the rear is 'all to ****' but they tell me there is no adjustment without fitment of adjustable links. That's a mod for the future and the rear tyres were perfectly worn even before I swapped them so can wait for now
23 May 2009, 02:03 AM
#12
You will probably find the toe is set like that as to get the correct camber: With stock suspension the only way to adjust the camber is by adjusting the toe, so what you are seeing is a "best fit".
You can get camber bolts which will allow for a bit more flexbility
Taking into account wear and tear on the suspension, which messes stuff up too....and that might be the problem on you rear; something maybe bent or worn out (bushes).
As for lack of castor; personally I think their eqipment might be a little dated. Thats not to say its bad, but newer stuff usually gives a fancy printout with all the bells and whistles.
You can get camber bolts which will allow for a bit more flexbility
Taking into account wear and tear on the suspension, which messes stuff up too....and that might be the problem on you rear; something maybe bent or worn out (bushes).
As for lack of castor; personally I think their eqipment might be a little dated. Thats not to say its bad, but newer stuff usually gives a fancy printout with all the bells and whistles.
23 May 2009, 07:30 AM
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Your nearside rear has an awful lot of camber. Prodrive setting are 1.25 degrees for the rear iirc, and I have got quite an aggressive set up with 1.5 degrees at the rear and 1.75 degrees at the front.
With nearly 2.75 degrees of rear camber I would be looking to see what is broken. Even the other side of 1.75 degrees is a lot. The factory setting for the wagon is 1.333 degrees +/- 3/4 degree. (or 1 degrees 20 minutes +/- 45minutes). Your offside is just within tolerance.
As for castor, static castor is difficult to adjust unless you either fit an ALK, which gives a set increase, or have specific castor adjustment - mine is done through new adjustable top mounts.
From the manual...
With nearly 2.75 degrees of rear camber I would be looking to see what is broken. Even the other side of 1.75 degrees is a lot. The factory setting for the wagon is 1.333 degrees +/- 3/4 degree. (or 1 degrees 20 minutes +/- 45minutes). Your offside is just within tolerance.
As for castor, static castor is difficult to adjust unless you either fit an ALK, which gives a set increase, or have specific castor adjustment - mine is done through new adjustable top mounts.
From the manual...
23 May 2009, 11:42 AM
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I would blow £25 on a pair of camber bolts for the rear to equalise the camber....
As for front & rear toe ? Lazy or steering not centralised ?
I would also try for a smidge more front camber as well !
Maybe time for an serious hi-tech approach ?
imho
dunx
P.S. Could be a typo ?
As for front & rear toe ? Lazy or steering not centralised ?
I would also try for a smidge more front camber as well !
Maybe time for an serious hi-tech approach ?
imho
dunx
P.S. Could be a typo ?
Last edited by dunx; 23 May 2009 at 11:44 AM.
24 May 2009, 12:19 AM
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Many thanks for the feed back Ali, Jon and Dunx
I must admit I'm still very confused why the front wheels would be set with one toeing in and one toeing out and same with the rears
This to me would appear to set up the car to 'crab' down the road
Is this really the 'best fit' a Subaru Dealer can do
I would have thought if set all at zero (as spec) then the vehicle and its wheels would be straight
Once all the wheels were pointing in the right direction, only then would the setting up of the camber/castor would take place.
I seem to remember that the GB270 suspension was Tein and front was lowered 25mm and rear 10mm, would this alter the camber/Toe/Castor from WRX spec?
If camber can be adjusted slightly with the 2 retaining bolts for the front hubs to struts then why can't this also be gained from the same set up on the rear suspension?
I would blow £25 on a pair of camber bolts for the rear to equalise the camber.... (dunx + Ali) where do I get these from?
With nearly 2.75 degrees of rear camber I would be looking to see what is broken (Jon) I've had a good look round and everything seems sound and not bent/worn and I can honestly say in 10k miles my car has never mounted a curb, let a loan hit one.
Sorry to be a pain in the a$$ as a newbie with this query but 2 fooked tyres in 600 miles is high in running costs
A bit pi$$ed off now. £130 out of pocket to find out the car was out of alignment and still is............ so nothing gained
I must admit I'm still very confused why the front wheels would be set with one toeing in and one toeing out and same with the rears
This to me would appear to set up the car to 'crab' down the road
Is this really the 'best fit' a Subaru Dealer can do
I would have thought if set all at zero (as spec) then the vehicle and its wheels would be straight
Once all the wheels were pointing in the right direction, only then would the setting up of the camber/castor would take place.
I seem to remember that the GB270 suspension was Tein and front was lowered 25mm and rear 10mm, would this alter the camber/Toe/Castor from WRX spec?
If camber can be adjusted slightly with the 2 retaining bolts for the front hubs to struts then why can't this also be gained from the same set up on the rear suspension?
I would blow £25 on a pair of camber bolts for the rear to equalise the camber.... (dunx + Ali) where do I get these from?
With nearly 2.75 degrees of rear camber I would be looking to see what is broken (Jon) I've had a good look round and everything seems sound and not bent/worn and I can honestly say in 10k miles my car has never mounted a curb, let a loan hit one.
Sorry to be a pain in the a$$ as a newbie with this query but 2 fooked tyres in 600 miles is high in running costs
A bit pi$$ed off now. £130 out of pocket to find out the car was out of alignment and still is............ so nothing gained
24 May 2009, 07:20 AM
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One of the 2 hub bolts at the front (Upper on) is a camber bolt and that is how the front can be adjusted. On the rear both are bolts are just plain bolts. For camber bolts check out ebay, or any scooby specialist - eibach and whiteline make them, as do plenty of unheard of companies.
Yes lowering will alter the camber, but not necessarily the toe or castor. If it only drops the rear by 10mm then the difference will be negligible, and the front can be corrected using the camber bolts.
My thoughts for the rear would be a worn or broken top mount.
Personally, I would go back to Subaru and ask them to at least set the toe to zero as there is toe adjustment both front and rear. You've paid for them to do that, and they haven't.
Where abouts in the country are you as someone may know a good independant who can be more help than the main stealer.
Yes lowering will alter the camber, but not necessarily the toe or castor. If it only drops the rear by 10mm then the difference will be negligible, and the front can be corrected using the camber bolts.
My thoughts for the rear would be a worn or broken top mount.
Personally, I would go back to Subaru and ask them to at least set the toe to zero as there is toe adjustment both front and rear. You've paid for them to do that, and they haven't.
Where abouts in the country are you as someone may know a good independant who can be more help than the main stealer.
24 May 2009, 10:48 AM
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JonMc, thanks for all this info mate.
I'll look at getting these bolts so atleast some of this camber may be reduced.
I'm going to get back to the dealer about this and take them to task. Like you I think I've paid them to adjust toe to make the car steer straight and it isn't
I'm located in Bracknell/Ascot Berks. Infact I'm sure we've met at MSOC meets at some time
I'll look at getting these bolts so atleast some of this camber may be reduced.
I'm going to get back to the dealer about this and take them to task. Like you I think I've paid them to adjust toe to make the car steer straight and it isn't
I'm located in Bracknell/Ascot Berks. Infact I'm sure we've met at MSOC meets at some time
24 May 2009, 11:07 AM
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I'd suggest DSA in Aylesbury, but they're about an hour away from you. I'm not sure of anyone south of the M4, although I believe there's a place called Subaru4You in Reading who some people think are okay.
Fitting the camber bolts is really easy, just get plenty of duck oil or similar on the night before and have a big breaker bar to hand. If you fit 2 per side you'll get even more adjustment. Also worth pricing up the original ones from Subaru as you could always use them instead of aftermarket ones if they're cheaper
24 May 2009, 03:58 PM
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Would suggest getting a full aligment done on a laser jig. If you find the right specialist they will do it for a relatively small fee.
Mine cost £47 using the latest Sun equipment and included precheck with printed report (quite a bit outside of the tolerances), as well as changing settings to the ones below also with printed report. (This on a 2007 WRX with Prodrive springs and 18" alloys - effectively the same set up as a GB270 (with the exception of the uprated rear ARB that the GB270 has).
Front toe: L 0.1, R 0.1
Front camber: L -28 minutes, R -24 minutes
Castor: L 3 degrees 3 minutes, R 3 degrees 27 minutes
Rear toe: L -0.1, R 0.1
Rear camber: L 1 degree 10 minutes, R 1 degree 22 minutes.
Although this is not as agressive a set up as some, the specialist recommended this also saying to come back for more negative camber if you feel you need it, but have to say the handling, steering feel etc are brilliant as is.
Hope this helps.
Mine cost £47 using the latest Sun equipment and included precheck with printed report (quite a bit outside of the tolerances), as well as changing settings to the ones below also with printed report. (This on a 2007 WRX with Prodrive springs and 18" alloys - effectively the same set up as a GB270 (with the exception of the uprated rear ARB that the GB270 has).
Front toe: L 0.1, R 0.1
Front camber: L -28 minutes, R -24 minutes
Castor: L 3 degrees 3 minutes, R 3 degrees 27 minutes
Rear toe: L -0.1, R 0.1
Rear camber: L 1 degree 10 minutes, R 1 degree 22 minutes.
Although this is not as agressive a set up as some, the specialist recommended this also saying to come back for more negative camber if you feel you need it, but have to say the handling, steering feel etc are brilliant as is.
Hope this helps.
24 May 2009, 10:58 PM
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JonMc and scoobydog
Thanks guys for all this info
I have seen Subaru4You mentioned on here a few times and nearly took the car to them for the 10k service (wish I had now) but thought with warranty issues I had better visit a main stealer, lesson learnt next service
Think I'll talk to Prodive as well to get the correct settings to shove down the dealers neck as they told me the settings they gave me are correct
I'm going to take issue with the dealer on Tuesday and either get them to do it again or better still get my money back
I'll get these bolts, 4 of them to get max adjustment as one rear side camber is rather excessive.
I'll fit the bolts and phone round and find someone with a laser set up and get the car set up again.
scoobydog those settings will do just fine for me thanks
Thanks guys for all this info
I have seen Subaru4You mentioned on here a few times and nearly took the car to them for the 10k service (wish I had now) but thought with warranty issues I had better visit a main stealer, lesson learnt next service
Think I'll talk to Prodive as well to get the correct settings to shove down the dealers neck as they told me the settings they gave me are correct
I'm going to take issue with the dealer on Tuesday and either get them to do it again or better still get my money back
I'll get these bolts, 4 of them to get max adjustment as one rear side camber is rather excessive.
I'll fit the bolts and phone round and find someone with a laser set up and get the car set up again.
scoobydog those settings will do just fine for me thanks
24 May 2009, 11:07 PM
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As long as your car is serviced at the correct intervals by a VAT registered garage, no matter how dodgy they look, your warranty remains intact.
Personally, I'd get a refund, take it to someone like Subaru4You and if they find something that is covered by the warranty is broken, go back and get the dealer to sort it. IIRC Subaru4You keep parts in stock so thy may be able to supply OE camber bolts.
Personally, I'd get a refund, take it to someone like Subaru4You and if they find something that is covered by the warranty is broken, go back and get the dealer to sort it. IIRC Subaru4You keep parts in stock so thy may be able to supply OE camber bolts.
25 May 2009, 12:45 AM
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Camskill do camber bolts at around £25... You should only need one pair for the rear IMHO....
HTH
dunx
P.S. Scoobydog - swap the rear bar, it's the best value mod on my car - kills the understeer.
HTH
dunx
P.S. Scoobydog - swap the rear bar, it's the best value mod on my car - kills the understeer.
Last edited by dunx; 25 May 2009 at 11:14 AM.
25 May 2009, 09:42 PM
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Thanks once again for all this advice and info guys
I'm inclined to agree with your comment dynamix as I suspect that the dealer farmed the job out to a local tyre company and put their bit on-top
Will visit them tomorrow and try and get my money back and start a proper fix with these bolts then the laser geo check hopefully all will be OK after that
I'm inclined to agree with your comment dynamix as I suspect that the dealer farmed the job out to a local tyre company and put their bit on-top
Will visit them tomorrow and try and get my money back and start a proper fix with these bolts then the laser geo check
hopefully all will be OK after that
Last edited by Woosh!; 25 May 2009 at 09:43 PM.
25 May 2009, 11:00 PM
#25
[QUOTE=Woosh!;8725510]Thanks once again for all this advice and info guys
I'm inclined to agree with your comment dynamix as I suspect that the dealer farmed the job out to a local tyre company and put their bit on-top
Will visit them tomorrow and try and get my money back and start a proper fix with these bolts then the laser geo check hopefully all will be OK after that
Take your car and have lazer alignment done,get print out,then go and threaten the numptys who did the work with a local ad in the paper get them to,replace the tyres refund costs
Rough set up front straight no toe rear toed in 1mm.Unfortunately the job get done by operatives who dont have a clue.I had tracking done in a garage locally after a new set of tyres fitted 800mls later front inside bald so when I went back the numpty said it was my lowered suspension,funny I got 30.000 miles out of the last set of tyres.Never mind I got him fired,at least saved other unsuspecting customers.Had tracking checked toed out 10 mm.
I'm inclined to agree with your comment dynamix as I suspect that the dealer farmed the job out to a local tyre company and put their bit on-top
Will visit them tomorrow and try and get my money back and start a proper fix with these bolts then the laser geo check
hopefully all will be OK after that Take your car and have lazer alignment done,get print out,then go and threaten the numptys who did the work with a local ad in the paper get them to,replace the tyres refund costs
Rough set up front straight no toe rear toed in 1mm.Unfortunately the job get done by operatives who dont have a clue.I had tracking done in a garage locally after a new set of tyres fitted 800mls later front inside bald so when I went back the numpty said it was my lowered suspension,funny I got 30.000 miles out of the last set of tyres.Never mind I got him fired,at least saved other unsuspecting customers.Had tracking checked toed out 10 mm.
26 May 2009, 09:31 AM
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Woosh, I think your alignment results for front and rear toe are in mm and not degrees, in which case your garage has done a decent job. Toe settings in the + or - 1mm range are normal and can be used to give desired steering response. Have a search on here for the very long handling thread by Damian Harty from Prodrive that explains a lot.
20 October 2009, 09:15 PM
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