Andy Tang

iTrader: (3)

I have recently changed my alloys.

I've got SO2 PP from the old alloys, or P Zeros with new alloys.

I know what the SO2PP's are like, and love them, but are the PZeros any better. There must be some areas where the PZeros are better??

I've noticed the PZeros are little more progressive on the limit, but what are they like in the wet?? Snow??? etc???

Thanks
Andy

Darren Thompson

I find the P Zeros great in the dry and have never had any problem in the wet, I have only had under steer once and the rest of the time it's been predictable oversteer when pushed for that sort of response. I like them but if your happy with what you have got stick with them.

Darren.

Silver Surfer

I found the P zeros to be average in the wet and the sidewalls were too soft. Ride good though. SO2's much better all round plus less shoulder wear - and lasted 17k.

hope this helps

GaryC

P-Zeros are very old technology. There are some new varients out ('c' - rosso etc) but stock P-Zeros are outclassed by even top end budget tyres (toyos etc)

Darren Thompson

Cheers Gary I'll get my jacket then !!!

bob

P-Zero's I like them. Not as good as S02's in the wet but in the dry I find them just as good. My S02's 7-8,000 miles. My P'zero's 12-15,000 miles. With the S02's the car when on its limits will snap and spin. With the P'zero's you get a little warning. Prodrive must also like them as they fit them to there P1 Wheels.

MTR

Andy,
Without getting embroiled in My tyres are better than yours, type arguments.

Q. What price do you think you will get for the 2nd hand P Zeros if you remove them?
£250 tops for a set of £400 tyres, equals a £150 immediate loss.

Q. How much will it cost to have your tyres swapped, balanced etc

In my opinion, it would make better financial sense to wear out the PZeros, then get the S02s fitted.

As for examples of new and old technology.

In 1999 at the Goodwood Festival of Speed, the Hill climb course record was set in a Maclaren F1 car, by the then test driver (Nick Heidfeld I think). I presume, as I wasn't there, they were using a 1998 car, because this summer (2000) they were using a last years car.

He ONLY just beat a 25 year old car, driven by the leader of the histioric F1 championship. ie not a works driver.

And the car that was only just beaten by the all conquering state of the art (1 year before), Maclaren, was a Cosworth DFV powered 6 wheel Tyrrel, which if memory serves me right, was not that succesful during its F1 period.

So sometime you need to balance the genuine merits of one item against another, taking cost into consideration.

Given also the fact that shaving 3 tenths of a second off the run to work, isn't probably a requirement, the PZeros will just manage.

Stef Reader regularly wipes the floor with a large selection of BETTER equipped cars than his own. ie better engines, suspension TYRES etc.
At one Donnington run, he was using part worn Pirreli P6000 repmobile tyres, and I am not sure if he had matched tyres all round, but he still wasted most of the attendees.

Cheers MTR (on PZeros, like the factory fit all the 22B's and F40's)



[This message has been edited by MTR (edited 22 December 2000).]

Andy Tang

iTrader: (3)

MTR,

I don't think I expalined myself properly.

I have 8 17" alloy wheels at the moment!!

I've got my old MIM's with SO2 PP's and the new P1 wheels with PZeros. So there won't be a great deal of money lost, as I have the tyres already!!!

SO2PP's have about 5,000 miles on them, and the PZero's have about 1,200 miles.

Thanks for all the replies, I think I'll keep the PZero's, and might NOT go back to SO2PP's!!!

Cheers
Andy

Darren Thompson

Not wanting to get into a debate as Andy was only after some tyre advise and as I first posted stick with what you are happy with, but the poor sucker who does not know any better !!!

That would be Subaru, Ferrari, Lambourgini and Porsche. I have P Zero's and I don't have a problem does that make me a sucker and yes I did buy them new to replace the worn out P Zero's. I am going to try the SO2PP's next time but hey that another story.

Sucker Darren.

Andy Tang

iTrader: (3)

Just have to say with everyone on holiday, the drive into work was amazing.

The tyres were predictable, I had no understeer, I carried more speed into and out of corners, and it was the first time I noticed the brakes are "the weakest link"!!!

What tyres was I using..... PZeros!!!

Very happy with them, and much better than my SO2 PP in the same situation!!!

Maybe we should start a debate!! Maybe the SO2's have had it too good too long!!!!

Andy

GaryC

Don't get confused between mass market available P-Zeros and P-Zeros fitted to Ferrari et.al. The P-Zeros on Ferraris and a number of other supercars are specially developed for that car (Ferrari etc.) Likewise a lot of rally car slicks and BTCC tyres are branded P-Zeros but bear no resemblence no the P-Zeros fitted to the RB5etc.

The reason P-Zeros are fitted to Prodrive's cars/wheels is that they are about the only Z-rated tyre that come in 205/45/17 (the ideal fit for Subaru 17") most other brands have to 'make do' with 215/40/17

P-Zeros are a good perfromance tyre, they are just bettered by a (small) number of newer developed tyres, primarily in the wet.

The new P-Zero-C is possibly the best 'dry' tyre on the market, with grooved slick levels of grip.

Hoppy

Andy, no! You've got it wrong! Stick the SO2PPs on your P1 wheels, and flog the Mims, with wrong off-set, with the PZeros to some poor sucker who doesn't know better.

The SO2PPs are massively superior to PZeros. Fact. (I'm talking wet roads here, as any modern tyre is perfectly adequate in the dry unless you take them on track or drive like a total anu5.) The Mims are at least 5mm wider than the optimum off-set and upset handling.

Hoppy

PS I've got three sets of wheels and four sets of different rubber - standard OEM tyres, Yoko A520s, PZeros, and SO2PPs - all with plenty of tread left. Standard tyres are just this side of okay, Yokos a bit better but not much, PZeros a significant improvement, but SO2PPs are simply in a class of their own. Lifesavers in the wet.

Hoppy

Guys, no offence to anyone and each to their own opinion, but wouldn't we all like to see a side by side tyres test?

It would take some organising, but a few facts for once would be great. Simon de Webmaster could organise it, John Felstead could draw up the test parameters, and us lot would turn up for a top day out and learn a few things at the same time.

Would anyone here volunteer their car/tyres for a shoot-out at MIRA or somewhere? I'm up for it. C'mon guys!

Hoppy

MTR

GaryC, and Hoppy,
I will bow to your judgement on the abilities of the S02's versus the PZero's , as I believe you have used both types of tyre, and I haven't.

But to suggest to a chap, on the run up to Christmas, after having just purchased a set of P1 wheels and tyres, that he PAYS to have a perfectly good set (1200 mile old PZero) tyres removed and replaced with a set of older (5000 miles S02) tyres, with the associated loss on the resale value of the PZero's, (worth naff second hand, given that people are selling wheels and tyres brand new albeit 16" for £250/300 on this BBS) just doesn't seem to make a great deal of sense.

Or you both have far too much money,

If the question posed was, which should I buy? then that is an altogether different scenario.

Hoppy,
For magazine test results on tyre grip, see

MTR

Hoppy,
The back to back testing with an Impreza has already been done, click on the link on my previous posting.

Cheers MTR

Hoppy

MTR, thanks, good link. But it's over a year old and doesn't include PZeros. The Goodyear F1s appear to deserve more credit than they get on this board though, for sure. Very interesting.

But wouldn't you still like to take part in a Scoobynet test? There's nothing in that data that we, ie the Scoobynet community, could not replicate. Then we sell the report to the highest bidder!

Any more volunteers?

Hoppy

Hoppy

MTR, interesting post and you make some valid and down-to-earth points.

But why should we leave all the tyre testing to the magazines that get everything for nothing? Why shouldn't Scoobynet get stuff for testing for nothing?

Would your enthusiasm for taking part in a tyre test change if you were given a fresh set of rubber, asked to thrash it to within a few millimetres of its life, give your views and make some measurements, then drive home on what's left?

That's what the motoring mags do, and the only difference between say Revs and Scoobynet is scale.

But maybe tyre tests are not the best example. What about down-pipes or back boxes? Who makes the best? The most powerful - bottom-end, mid-range and maximum/noisiest/best made/value/fit etc etc. NOBODY currently has the FACTS on that lot. Brakes, brake pads, suspension - all we have is hearsay and subjective opinion, and very valuable that is for sure, but how about some real, valid, comparison figures?

With a bit of effort, the Scoobynet community could be so much more than a just BBS (even though it's the best BBS on the web already!). I know Simon Webmaster is open to suggestions, but he can't do everything on his own. Is Scoobynet a community of kindred spirits or just a bunch of petrol-head gossips?

Okay. Lecture over. Flame suit on.

Hoppy

PS I've worked in consumer magazine publishing for over 20 years, mainly in or around product testing (cars, bikes and err, cameras!).

MTR

Hoppy,
Thanks for the invitation to take part in some form of tyre test, but sadly I will have to decline.
Surely you must have gathered by now, I am the founder of that famous company
POORDRIVE (no relation to that other company Prodrive).

And as such I have very little disposable income, and certainly cannot afford to 'shred' my tyres for the purpose of trying to prove which are best.
I'll leave that to the magazines who get their cars/tyres for free.

Cheers MTR

GaryC

MTR you are perfectly correct, the benefit of SO2s over P-Zeros is not so great as to warrent binning a set of almost new P-Zeros to fit SO2s. The difference in the dry is marginal, the difference in the wet noticable, but only if you crave high wet grip.

The Autocar test was done on 16" wheels, this does make a difference. The SO2s perform better in 17" format, and are known not to be so good at 16" for some reason. Having driven my impreza on 16" SO2s for a day, I was surprised how much poorer they felt - can't explain why? For 16", it would seem the Toyo T1-s or F1s are a better VFM choice. SO2s are only really a clear leader in 17" (IMO)

MTR

GaryC,
Glad to see a bit of common sense being put forward.

I have used many different types of tyres, and have had to ultimately accept that I cannot afford to buy the ones that give the greatest grip, due to the ineviatable reduction in longevity.

Soft tyres grip, hard tyres don't, in the most simplistic analysis.

When I was attempting to get into road rallying, the common tyres used were Dunlop SPR3 (a competition tyre developed by Bill Gwynne, Motoring News rally champion, and Dunlop for road rallying, which I used, and were brilliant), Goodyear G800 Ultragrip 180/330, which I also used, simply because I could get them 2nd hand, but didn't like them as much , on tarmac OR on loose surface as the SPR3's.

The people who had LOTS of money were using Dunlop A2's competition Forest rally tyres, expensive and didn't last long (1 event), they also started to use Pirelli P7's which at that time were the prefered tyre for Porsche Turbos, not MK1/Mk2 Escorts. Again VERY expensive,(twice the cost of SPR3's) and didn't last long.

EARS in Maccelsfield were also selling Kleber hand cut slicks, legal for road use!

So I do have some understanding of the benefits and variations that differing tyres can give, but have had to accept that that for myself, COST has become a very important consideration.

I never try and compromise the technical parameters of my cars performance/safety, but sometimes it is neccessary to temper our ultimate goal of ultimate performance, due to financial constraints.

Oh, Yokohama A008's are VERY good in the dry, but last about 5000 miles on an XR2, and aquaplane very quickly.

I find the PZeros give adequate grip for myself, certainly in the dry, but to be honest I wasn't unhappy with the RE010's in the dry.

Perhaps over the years I have become somewhat less critical of my cars abilities, and just drive to the limits I find I have at the time, without feeling the need to 'improve' the car, simply because I cannot afford to.

I mean i will go out when the weather is snowy, just to practise 4 wheel drifts, without wrecking my tyres, on private car parks only of course.
So its possible to have fun when grip levels are at their lowest.

I have stated this on another post,previously, but as James Hunt once said, 'the limit is the limit', and once you learn to drive your car at its limit, that is were the satisfaction and pleasure is derived.
He apparently took great pleasure in drifting his Austin A40/45? around the roundabouts in London, at quite low speed.
This is from the 1976 World F1 Champion.

So constantly striving to gain 'better' cars doesn't neccesarily mean gaining more enjoyement.(IMO)

Cheers MTR

EvilBevel

I know nuthingue about tyres, but would like to pass on 3 comments:

Don Palmer seemed to say that SO2PP's are unbelievable in the wet. That is also my experience.

The guy that does the tuning of my car said that on circuit, PZero's would do a better job in the dry, and would roll a bit less in corners.

Pete Croney seemed to say (video) that you can destroy a perfectly good set of SO2 PP's in one track session.

Disclaimer: I am talking about 17" alloys.

My amateur feel at the moment is that in a mixed environment (road use, all weather), the SO2 PP is probably the finest tyre you can buy today, but that the PZero would be better in the dry, and especially on a dry circuit.

Just 2 cents worth, not trying to prove a point.

Theo

MTR

Hoppy,
The sort of scenario you are suggesting sounds similar to the sort of thing that Fast Car (which several years ago used to print some reasonable articles, but on recent evidence, after having bought my first car magazine in several years whilst convalecsing, now prints utter tosh IMO), used to do.

They asked people to register their car type/specification, and then would contact the individual to take part in say an exhaust comparison, with 5 or 6 of the popular sytems, manifolds etc.

They would use the one car to test fit/form/function of all the exhausts and give score rating for the sort of parameters you mention. Loudest, most power, ease of fit etc, and at the end the car owner got to choose which system he wanted FOC.

They would test and give away such things as Twin DCNF Weber kits for XR2's £650 worth, 4 pot caliper kits, complete suspension kits Koni/Spax etc

Usually it would be Ford, Vauxhall, Rover, Fiat etc all the boy racer stuff.
But it must have helped sell magazines, as I know when I saw the XR2 exhaust test, I bought a copy, and then bought a complete Janspeed system on the basis of their results. Well to be honest, I was 99% sure I was having Janspeed, because I was confident it would fit properly, where all of the cheaper exhausts I had previously owned never did, but their article helped to confirm my beliefs.

I would imagine however, that a full photo shoot as well as the technical summary of the findings, would be more appealing to suppliers of products for testing, than just the written word on a BBS, as that would look nicer for joe public

I presume the driving force behind any company willing to 'give' their products to a group for testing, is ultimately to generate sales for their 'succesful' product, and as such would want to reach as large an audience as possible.

I have no idea as to the circulation figures of magazines such as Fast Car, CCC, etc but I suspect it would be greater than the number of people who peruse this BBS.

That is not to say your idea is without merit, as companies such as Scoobymania, BPM, Scoobysport, BRDevelopments, etc all advertise on here, aiming to sell merchandise to people who read this BBS, and possibly they may well be encouraged to partake in these sorts of tests, with the option of allowing the guinea pig cars owner, to choose the product of his choice FOC, out of the selection that have been tested on their car.

The difference here, however is that you would be asking much smaller companies to foot the bill.

Koni probably have a much bigger turnover than say Scoobysport, and as such can write of the cost of a set of dampers to a magazine, just as Weber can give away a carb kit that retails at £650, with air filters, manifold, fuel pump etc, whereas if Scoobysport were being asked to donate a full Leda set up, or 4 pot kit, it will be serious money to them.

An interesting idea though, maybe the companies that advertise on here may be amenable to suggestions along those lines from Simon De Banke.

And yes, if someone else was footing the bill, I 'MIGHT' be more enthusiastic about getting involved.

Cheers MTR

Branners

I own a Supra and not a Scoob, but my experienced with the P-zeros was disappointing. The problem I had was that they need to build up some heat before gaining any grip, and in the wet with a 265x17 tyre I just couldnt get any heat into the tyre and had real problems with the car powersliding all over the place.

However, I found that the p-zero was exceptional when it finally warmed up. At Donington I got them up to temperature and they ran many laps without any signs of 'going off' and to that end I was well impressed with them. I have yet to try out S02s on my Supra, but lots of other Supra club members have tried them and have nothing but praise for them. The only problem being that they heat up way too much on a serious track day and wear out at a phenominal rate.

My approach will be to have S02s fitted to my normal wheels, and have Pzero C's fitted to a set of track wheels.

Hope this helps confuse the issue!!

JB