alessio

iTrader: (3)

Good morning, all

So, a couple of months ago I purchased my first Impreza - a '97 (MY98) WRX wagon. The car came from Switzerland, slightly modified (not really sure what's been done, though) and the plan is to build it into a road-legal track day/weekend car. There is a bit of a twist, however: in summer I am planning to use it on the local race tracks while in winter I want to have a bit of fun on the ice tracks.

I've been reading this forum a lot for the last several weeks and I'd like to think that I have some reasonable ideas of where to go with it but I thought I'd gather them all in one post and will ask you for your thoughts and specific upgrades.

Here is the car in question (the blue one)



The previous owner installed lowering springs (I believe they are 50/55 mm lower than stock) and I did not notice any other mods to the suspension when the car was on a lift. After reading the forum it appears that the car is way too low (it has 205/55/16 tyres under it in the picture) and that's the reason why I was not impressed at all with the handling of the car during the brief couple of weeks I had it before the cold weather.

Here is what I'm thinking suspension-wise.

For the summer:
KW V3 (or even Clubsport) coilovers
Some sort of top mounts to allow more camber and castor
Anti-lift kit (which is better, Whiteline or CDF?)
Alloy lower arms for the front (for the sake of being able to run more castor)
Adjustable Whiteline ARB 22F/24R
Upgraded ARB links (again, Whiteline or CDF?)
Roll centre/bump steer correction kit
Front and rear strut braces

For the winter:
all of the above but without the roll centre correction kit (I think) and with red STI suspension instead of the KW coilovers for additional ride height and suspension travel.

So, what do you think? Have I missed something or did I go wrong somewhere? I'm very much open to ideas because this is my first AWD car and my first Subaru.

Thanks,
Alex

Arnie_1

I like your parts choices. Just a couple of notes:

I'd personally opt for the KW clubsport or, at the least, replace the rear spring setup for a linear spring. KW use a progressive spring on the V3 setup that I really don't like. I think they use it to pass TÜV. It gives a weird handling characteristic. its very soft in initial rate, so the *** sags quite a bit then the stiffer rate comes in and then the car handles better. I personally like a more consisten spring rate throughout the travel. The clubsport uses the linear spring.

I prefer Whiteline's ALK, at the very least, because they invented it and have done the most development on it. I think they understand the concept better than most who have just copied their design.

With the alloy lower arms, you'll only be able to gain extra caster by flipping the rear pin if you use a GC alloy arm. If, however, you use an 04-06 Spec C alu arm, the arm itself has more caster built in and you can still do the rear pin caster mod. it will, however, widen your front track by a couple cm's, so you'll need to run a minimum of -1.5 for a 7.5" ET48 wheel with 215 rubber to clear. I think with 205 rubber on a 7" wheel and ET53 you can go a bit less.

Not sure what tophat options you have where you are or who's doing what in the UK. If they are standard camber only plates, i'd consider swapping left to right and rotating them so you can get more caster and camber with the "angled" mount.

No sense in removing the roll center kit for the winter setup. The red STi suspension will be fine for winter. You might want to consider disassembling the rear struts, cleaning out the old crap grease and replacing with good quality grease. It will keep them from knocking longer (which STi inverted struts are prone to do). If you are going to be blasting about in the snow, you might want to consider getting some rally style wheel scrapers to keep the snow out of your wheels. They vibrate terribly from being unbalanced when the snow and ice pack in the wheel.

alessio

iTrader: (3)

Hi Arnie,

Thank you very much for the reply, really appreciate the insight - some new information for me there.

Clubsport it is, then. For some reason I thought that a friend of mine used V3 on his S14 but he actually uses CS and also really recommends them over V3.

Roger that for the ALK.

Is the price of the Whiteline roll centre adjustment kit compared to Apex one, for example, justified considering you also get steering rod ends?

OK, that's very useful. So the later lower suspension arm will basically just bolt on to the '97 GF8 pickup points?

And I haven't quite decided on which wheels I will run - currently I have a set of stock late classic 16" ones and the OZ superturismos in the picture above but I'm thinking of going with new age WRX it STI rims for the summer. Haven't researched that area much, though.

You're very welcome to suggest the top mounts one uses in Germany - since I'm based in Estonia (and it's unbelievable what's available in the UK when it comes to cars and to parts and how cheap it all is in comparison) so it matters little where I order my parts from.

I'll keep this in mind - all I need to do now is source the said suspension and it's surprisingly harder that I thought it'd be.

I indeed have every intention of playing in the snow - that's most of the reason I went with the Subaru and not an E36 for a track car

Do tell me more about hte wheel scrapers, though! I've tried searching for them and I've talked to the local AWD enthusiast and surprisingly no one had heard of such things.

Any comments on the anti-roll bars? Is 22/24 mm F/R the way to go with my car?

Again, thank you for the help, I'll do my best to put it to good use and I'm sure I'll have more questions as I move forward.

Cheers,
Alex

bonesetter

iTrader: (9)

After trying quite a few combinations, I've always ended up 22/24 on both classics and new age. The front I run on the firm setting (of the two on a Whiteline bar), so effectively 23mm, and the rear on the middle setting, so 25mm

This seems to give a good balance of increasing overall grip levels, dialling out all understeer, sharpening the front steering input, and still leaving a small amount of rotation on lift off

Always best to go for adjustables, then it's only a 10min switch if you want to change

Arnie_1

Just real quick, but one thing to consider in winter is that you should run softer anti roll bars in wet/slick conditions, especially snow racing. Will be much better for traction as you don't need that much roll resistance in the snow. So using OEM bars or at the most, a 22mm rear adjustable would be best for winter. I'll get to your other comments as soon as I can.

bonesetter

iTrader: (9)

Good point, thanks Arnie

alessio

iTrader: (3)

Thanks for the suggestions, and there's no rush here, so take your time.

Are you thinking the OEM WRX ARBs for the winter or OEM STI?

One more question - if I were to run the newer lower arms at the front, would I also need a newage anti-roll bar?

That said, I'd probably be asking for specific part numbers once I have all the larger parts here.

Cheers,
Alex

alessio

iTrader: (3)

Hi again

With the winter season over (in reality was able to go to the ice track just for one day ) I am now ready to concentrate on getting the car ready for the summer. Can you guys please help me some more with my shopping list?

The main question is the front suspension, and in particular the 04-06 Spec C alu suspension arms. In addition to the questions I had about them above, how easy are they to find second-hand? Or should I just go with new ones? Should I also go with poly bushings right from the start? I don't suppose anyone has the part numbers of these suspension arms and / or could point me to where to get them?

After that is sorter the exact ARB and droplinks will fall into place as well.

The next question are the front and rear top mounts that would work with the KW CS coilovers. If I'm honest, I've never dealt with coilovers before so any advice will be appreciated - what should I go for here?

Finally, got a good source of KW products?

Thanks,
Alex

alessio

iTrader: (3)

Yay, I now have almost all the parts I need to get me to where I want to be for now.

Got this package a couple of days ago



Here's what's inside - the ARBs, roll centre correction kit, drop links, bushings for the front suspension arms, rear subframe bolts (not sure if I'm going to use those) and the front lower chassis brace.



In addition, I have front and rear strut braces, KYB AGX/Eibach struts and alloy front control arms. Had the rear brace brackets sandblasted and powdercoated too. Not pictured is the WL ALK and the brakes.



Decided not to go for KW CS just yet because with the top plates they are a bit more expensive than I hoped so this will be done a bit later. Other than that I hope to be able to install the bits within the next couple of weekends and to start using the car on the track.

To help me with that is a set of Federal 595 RSR tyres, have heard too many good things about them not to try them.



Already hit a bit of a snag, though. I removed the pins from the alloy control arms today and three of the bolts came out without issues, the fourth one, however, decided to take part of the aluminium thread with it and I really had a hard time removing it, so this will need to be retapped for a larger bolt. Since I'm planning to put a 5 mm shim between the control arm and the pin I think I'll need longer bolts anyway, so hope to take care of all that next week.

The next track event is on May 27 so I will be trying to get everything sorted by then.

Thanks for looking!

bonesetter

iTrader: (9)

Looking good

The AGX's are a pretty decent damper. What springs do you have there?

5mm caster shim and you'll be into longer bolts, yes. Make sure you get high tensile 10.9

I see you're going for the Bump Steer kit. Little dubious as to whether this works or actually makes matters worse. How much lowering are you planning?

The Roll Centre kit is a worthwhile addition

Have you heard of lowering the rack using shims to achieve bump steer correction?

Edit: Bump steer kit is the dubious one, as Arnie says below, not the RC kit


.

Arnie_1

ARgh that is a serious drag with that bolt! Sorry to hear that. On a new arm too. Ugh. One thing you'll need to get, depending on if you already have alu arms on your car, are the black retaining cones for the ball joints. They aren't on steel arms.

Also, are your arms the Spec C arms? If so, did you get a front ARB for the Spec C? The GF8 ARB is different to a GD car.

This was the definitive thread on NASIOC when we were all trying to figure out what the differences were on the Alu wishbones. Some pics are now missing but good info nonetheless. On page two are also part numbers for all the little bits you need if you have bare arms.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=832436

I personally am a fan of the Roll Center kit. The ball joints do what's advertised. They definitely raise the roll center, a must for any lowered car. I've even run them on stock height suspension and felt no ill effects like extreme jacking, just less body roll. The bump steer tie rods are up for debate. Bonesetter says Powerstation doesn't think they do their thing. Whiteline says they do. Who knows! I figure, if you're installing new ball joints in your car already, heck, why not go with these. At the least, the rubber boots are high temp and will hold up to high braking temps better than OEM and you do get the roll center correction.

alessio

iTrader: (3)

Hey guys!

bonesetter, this is not going to sound good, but I understand that the springs on there are Eibach Pro Kit The setup I bought is used but I do trust the seller so should be exactly what I was looking for and I expect them to be 30 mm lower than stock (or 20 mm higher than the car sits now!)

Thanks, now I know which bolts to ask when I go buy them.

The RC/BS kit - no idea. The kit does get positive feedback and, more importantly, Arnie told me to get it I have not considered the rack shims, no. I think I might as well go with the full WL set and see how I like it. Would be better, of course, to install the bits one by one to see the effect of each one but time is a bit of an issue so I'll put everything I have on the car in one go.

Arnie, these aren't new arms, these are used (from a breaker in the UK), just cleaned up Still doesn't mean it's not frustrating, of course. Thanks for the heads-up but you can just about see the two cones in one of the pictures so that bit is sorted.

Unfortunately these are regular alloy control arms, not Spec C ones. Those are quite hard to find and at this point I've decided to go with the ones I could get quickly. What was surprising is that apparently there are no non-adjustable drop links in the WL catalogue for a classic with alloy arms so I had to go with the adjustable ones.

Arnie_1

The "bump steer kit" are the tie rods included in the Roll Center kit. Its not a separate kit, in case it wasn't clear. I personally haven't measured the bump steer of the GC on a rack so I couldn't tell you if the WL kit does what it suggest on the tin. I'll get around to it one of these days. Or, i'll just have to trust that they engineered the part correctly. Who knows!

No worries on the Spec C arms. I understand their lack of cheap availability. At least you can get the free caster mod going on. Its a benefit for sure.

Yeah, the non-adjustable alloy droplinks are perhaps a bit short for GC usage but I've seen people using them and I think Bonesetter is using them. I personally prefer them over the adjustable links. They tend to hold up better. Less to go wrong. The adjustables are very nice if you need to cornerweight your car.

Floyd

iTrader: (9)

Adjustable drop links aren't worth it over the fixed IMO.

I've just fitted the Whiteline roll centre kit so I'll see how good it is shortly. I'd take whitelines engineering knowledge first...

alessio

iTrader: (3)

Guys, what do you think of using a 10 mm spacer between the pin and the control arm at the front without flipping the pin - will that be OK or do I need some thinner spacers? I have no idea how much you can move that pin away from the suspension arm before running into issues (with the front bushing, for example).

Thanks, Alex

bonesetter

iTrader: (9)

Here's a good thread on the issue

I would say 10mm without the pin flip would be OK.

With flipping would be too much for road

And ~5mm with flipping would be the best solution, engineering wise

alessio

iTrader: (3)

Thanks, that was useful!

I think I'll stick with 10 mm w/o the flipped pin for now and see what results I get, then will adjust the thickness if necessary.

Any reason why a 5 mm with a flipped pin is better than, let's say, 7 mm (don't know the offset of the pin from the centerline, just guessing) withou a flipped pin if the end result, i.e. the distance between the pin and the front bushing is the same?

Arnie_1

yeah, in the end, its kinda trial and error really. Depends on how everything is set up, driving preferences, grip levels, bla, bla, bla. I suppose the best solution for a person is somewhere in between. But you won't know till you try.

On the whole GD's and GC's respond really well to a decent caster increase. The GR's are a bit more finicky to caster increases as the camber gain is a bit quicker on those cars. So basically you get too much negative camber for amount of body roll generated. So you end up on the inside edges of the tyres and you get a bit of a driving on eggs feeling. So you kind of have to balance how much static neg camber you start off with in relationship to the dynamic camber gain and how much roll you're actually getting (i.e. you'll need to take tyre temps to optimize static neg camber).

As you can imagine not an easy internet solution! But the ball park improvement you'll see on your car won't be bad and you'll still feel like a hero on the road!

alessio

iTrader: (3)

Thanks, guys.

Had an annoyingly frustrating weekend. Decided to start with the front because there is very little room in the garage, got the front on jack stands and initially it went OK - until we got to the bolts holdong the lower ball joint in the hub housing. Those duly snapped which meant the hubs had to come off. The ABS sensor bolts snapped as well, which is kind of expected on a 15-year old car but still annoying. Luckily I have a friend whi was able to remove the remants of all four bolts (so rusted!) but unfortunately we discovered a crack on the RH hub housing near that pesky ball joint bolt hole. Tried having it welded up today but the weld metal was too different from the housing metal for a simple welding procedure and the weld metal cracked as the assy cooled down. I am not too comfortable using a welded hub housing anyway so I'm looking for a replacement without any luck at the moment. Grrrr.

Two questions for you - are all hub classic housings interchangeable? I understand there are several part numbers but no idea if there are any significant differences.

Secondly, is it normal to see grease inside the housing or do the bearings need to be replaced?

Alex

Arnie_1

If I recall correctly, front hubs 5x100 with ABS are identical from GC through GD. Since we had so many Scoobys in breaking yards it was usually cheaper and easier for me to just swap the whole knuckle than replace a bearing (when they went) with a used one. So go find yourself some low mileage front knuckles off of a GD WRX. It should work fine. You'll have fresher bearings too! Looking at GC knuckles would (unless direct from Japan with low miles/km) usually mean a fairly old set. If you look at GDs they most likely have less wear on them.

alessio

iTrader: (3)

Good points, Arnie, thanks, and I would have done just that if I were in the UK. As it is, I managed to source a hub/knuckle assembly (together with the driveshaft) but that had immense play between the hub and knuckle so the bearing will be changed to SKF that I hope to get within a couple of days. Wish I had more progress to show here

Arnie_1

Cheers! I hear you on used parts availability. My Peugeot 106 XSi is very rare here and I needed to replace one suspension leg as the bearing has gone out. Problem was the axle was completely seized with the hub/knuckle (knuckle is part of the suspension leg). So I had to replace the both. In the two years that I've been looking, I've only seen one suspension leg come up on ebay (bought it).

Just keep at it and the driving pleasure will come!

alessio

iTrader: (3)

Thanks, Arnie

Silly question - I'm sitting in the garage here thinking if there's any difference how I position the front top mount into the car, in the sense that if there is a particular outboard stud on them or if it doesn't matter. I cannot see any markings of that lind so scratching my head a bit.

Here's the RH strut, for example.





The rears say 4wd along one of the sides and I'm not entirely sure what to doth that onformation either, so your advice is, as always, much appreciated

Thanks,
Alex

Dave Hedgehog

iTrader: (1)

I think you'll find they only fit one way! The 3 bolts are not actually equidistant.
If not the "4WD" markings go towards the outside of the car.

Arnie_1

OEM Front strut tops are symmetrical, you can rotate them any direction and install them. Don't confuse this with the upper spring perch/pan which has a VERY specific orientation. Rears, as you saw, have an "outboard" direction.

Also makes sure that the conical washer (underneath tophat and above the spring perch) is oriented correctly as well (wider "base" on the bottom, "narrower" up top facing the tophat.

alessio

iTrader: (3)

Cheers, got it.

Hate it that I only talk about issues but for some reason the front top hats rotate much harder than I had on the struts I've removed. The LH-side one moves, with some effort, but on the RH side the top had does not want to move in relation to the perch so instead the spring rotates on the perch :S I bought the struts assembled, just like they are on one of the photos above so I'll talk to the seller to see his thoughts on this.

Anyone got part numbers for the OEM Group N top mounts for my car?

Arnie_1

That's most likely because they installed the conical washers upside down. Disassemble and check that the washers are mounted properly.

alessio

iTrader: (3)

Arnie, yup, the washers were missing at the front so I moved the ones from the removed struts over - sorted!

I'm back from my holiday trip and enjoying the rest of my holiday in the garage. We're basically done with the front of the car and have made some progress at the rear before hitting another snag.

Below are some pictures of the rear struts. I've marked the location of the "4WD" markings so the top hats will need to be rotated to the outside position before I install them (such a pain to get those top nuts off if they're done with an impact wrench and you don't have one!). What about top spring perches, though? My manual says the rear struts need to be assebled in the same way that the fronts are but that's not enough for me to be sure they're assebled correctly. The top perches have several holes of various sizes in them but no other markings that I can see and they are rotated a bit differently in the two struts. So, what's the rule with those? Does any of the holes need to be pointed outwards or something?





Thanks, guys!
Alex

Edit: there are, of course, three notches on the edge of the top perch so ... middle notch facing the outside then?

Arnie_1

Yup, middle notch should site directly over the center of the lower clevis. Just like the front center hole on the front spring pan should site over the center of the lower clevis. You'll note that the spring pan center hole (for the piston rod) is not exactly in the middle, that its offset. You've got to match this offset with the top and bottom spring pans.

alessio

iTrader: (3)

Thanks, that's exactly what I've decided to do and it's worked out nicely.

As of yesterday the car is back on the road but it's too early for any impressions since I only got to drive it for some 10 km in heavy rain to the alignment shop and back. The alignment got the car back to driveable condition but for some reason the technician, try as he did, could not get the negative camber to anywhere near what I wanted so I'll have to take the car in somewhere else (hoping to find a place that knows about these cars a bit more) after I've driven it a bit.

Don't like the brakes at the moment. They're new discs / pads with overhauled 4-pot/2-pot calipers but I'm not impressed with the pedal feel at all, not just the bite. I guess I'll give them a bit of time as well and will re-bleed them just in case.

I'm very happy to be able to drive the car, though It's been something like two months since I'd driven it so even the 10 km yesterday felt good

Thanks for all the help, guys!