Steering off after track day. Help!
02 March 2009, 01:44 PM
#1
Steering off after track day. Help!
Hi There,
I went to brands last month, and spin on a big expanse of tarmac in 2nd gear.
When driving home my steering wheel is about 5deg out.
Now i assumed i bent a steering rod or something, but i cannot see anything wrong. I could get the tracking done to compensate but i have another consern.
I have never drove a car with bad tracking before, so not really sure if its the tracking which will fix it.
When driving the weight of the steering changes from side to side ever so slightly and the car is a little quirmy on hard braking and undulating surfaces more than before.
Im wondering if this could be a knackered ball joint?
The effects are very small, and the car is still totally drivable, but i need perfection. something is wrong and it needs fixing.
Anyone had any similar issues?
I have not hit anything, just a spin in the wet with normal rubber. Have since spent a day spinning at rockingham with no change in the car what so ever.
I have since put new rims and tyres on the car, which has change the symptons somewhat, originally it was just i thought a tracking issue.
The effects are too small for me to accuratly describe, hoping someone has had similar and can advise before i spunk 25 quid on an alignment, then 50 on a ball joint then another 25 on alignment again?
Thanks
Chris
I went to brands last month, and spin on a big expanse of tarmac in 2nd gear.
When driving home my steering wheel is about 5deg out.
Now i assumed i bent a steering rod or something, but i cannot see anything wrong. I could get the tracking done to compensate but i have another consern.
I have never drove a car with bad tracking before, so not really sure if its the tracking which will fix it.
When driving the weight of the steering changes from side to side ever so slightly and the car is a little quirmy on hard braking and undulating surfaces more than before.
Im wondering if this could be a knackered ball joint?
The effects are very small, and the car is still totally drivable, but i need perfection. something is wrong and it needs fixing.
Anyone had any similar issues?
I have not hit anything, just a spin in the wet with normal rubber. Have since spent a day spinning at rockingham with no change in the car what so ever.
I have since put new rims and tyres on the car, which has change the symptons somewhat, originally it was just i thought a tracking issue.
The effects are too small for me to accuratly describe, hoping someone has had similar and can advise before i spunk 25 quid on an alignment, then 50 on a ball joint then another 25 on alignment again?
Thanks
Chris
02 March 2009, 01:47 PM
#2
Scooby Regular
If you did not hit anything when coming off track, I suspect it is just your tracking which is out. If wheels are pointing in different directions the car will be crabbing and all sorts.
Get the geometry checked and take it from there.
Get the geometry checked and take it from there.
02 March 2009, 01:53 PM
#3
Yeah thats what i was thinking.
I have never adjusted tracking on a car. But logic would dictate that it would be a nut with a locking nut. So if force has made the tracking be lost, its either bent something, or stripped some thread.
If its bent something, that something i should really replace, as with some planned slicks n suspension its going to abuse that a weak point, dont wanna loose my steering going 120 into paddock kinda thing.
Or is it possible for tracking to be lost without bent/thread strip? As i say, i dont really know how tracking is adjusted on a car...
Will jack it up and see if the wheels wobble first i think also.
I have never adjusted tracking on a car. But logic would dictate that it would be a nut with a locking nut. So if force has made the tracking be lost, its either bent something, or stripped some thread.
If its bent something, that something i should really replace, as with some planned slicks n suspension its going to abuse that a weak point, dont wanna loose my steering going 120 into paddock kinda thing.
Or is it possible for tracking to be lost without bent/thread strip? As i say, i dont really know how tracking is adjusted on a car...
Will jack it up and see if the wheels wobble first i think also.
02 March 2009, 02:02 PM
#4
Scooby Regular
Check the ball joint by all means and look for anything else around the arms and track rod etc, but for what it will cost, just get it on an alignment rig.
If it is not knocking or making weird noises, I suspect it is an alignment issue.
Things don't normal bend unless extreme force has been put on them, or a lot of energy suddenly gets stopped.
If it is not knocking or making weird noises, I suspect it is an alignment issue.
Things don't normal bend unless extreme force has been put on them, or a lot of energy suddenly gets stopped.
02 March 2009, 02:05 PM
#5
i suppose it could hav ebeen a loose nut after all its an old car which has allowed a tiny amount of movement. The movement between two nuts could account for my sens of wobble.
Once i do the suspension i shall get a proper AWD alignment, will get the tracking checked tomorrow i think.
Once i do the suspension i shall get a proper AWD alignment, will get the tracking checked tomorrow i think.
02 March 2009, 02:33 PM
#7
yeah as i say im not too good at describing.
Ill get the alignment checked tomorrow night after work. Its such a slight thing i think your write.
Im paranoid as the last time i had my alignment checked it turned out to be bottom ball joint (pug 306). That had very serious symptoms tho, not the really subtle ones here.
Ill get the alignment checked tomorrow night after work. Its such a slight thing i think your write.
Im paranoid as the last time i had my alignment checked it turned out to be bottom ball joint (pug 306). That had very serious symptoms tho, not the really subtle ones here.
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03 March 2009, 08:22 AM
#11
O Dear.
Ive had the tracking checked and there seems to be nothing wrong. it was perfectly straight and -.5 to +1.5 which the bloke tells me equals +1 within tolerance on the toe. So he said nothing really wrong there.
Driving home i did a little bit of testing. It seems the car pulls to the left. I.e. when driving i have to steer right to go in a straight line. and under braking it pull left. However it doesnt seemt to do it all the time.
Also coming round a corner last night the steering felt heavier than it has previously on that corner. WHen i first bought the car the steering was far too light when going quick, now it feels perfectly weighted. Just a change that i have noticed...
Whilst under the steering linkages all looked fine, and so did the ball joints. There had been some movement in the arb by about an inch but that was it.
Hope someone can help!
Ive had the tracking checked and there seems to be nothing wrong. it was perfectly straight and -.5 to +1.5 which the bloke tells me equals +1 within tolerance on the toe. So he said nothing really wrong there.
Driving home i did a little bit of testing. It seems the car pulls to the left. I.e. when driving i have to steer right to go in a straight line. and under braking it pull left. However it doesnt seemt to do it all the time.
Also coming round a corner last night the steering felt heavier than it has previously on that corner. WHen i first bought the car the steering was far too light when going quick, now it feels perfectly weighted. Just a change that i have noticed...
Whilst under the steering linkages all looked fine, and so did the ball joints. There had been some movement in the arb by about an inch but that was it.
Hope someone can help!
03 March 2009, 09:47 AM
#12
Could it possibly be a binding brake caliper? There is no burning smell and i have driven a good 300 miles with it like this. However a slight binding brake my cause this kinda issue?
What do you all rekon?
However if it was a brake it would still brake straight?
Also want to say it mostly seems to pull left on hard braking. normal braking it seems fine. Also on a right cambered road it really wanted to turn right/pull right. past 5mph the issue went and all was well and it didnt do it again.
Im confusseled as to what this could be.
Any tips, tricks, or things i should do to rule bits out? Need to get this sorted this weekend really.
If the spin slammer the car into full lock, could it be a problem with the steering itself? i.e. pump or powersteering parts?
help please!
What do you all rekon?
However if it was a brake it would still brake straight?
Also want to say it mostly seems to pull left on hard braking. normal braking it seems fine. Also on a right cambered road it really wanted to turn right/pull right. past 5mph the issue went and all was well and it didnt do it again.
Im confusseled as to what this could be.
Any tips, tricks, or things i should do to rule bits out? Need to get this sorted this weekend really.
If the spin slammer the car into full lock, could it be a problem with the steering itself? i.e. pump or powersteering parts?
help please!
03 March 2009, 10:40 AM
#13
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IMHO !
I would try and reduce the variation side-to -side, -.5 to +1.5 is two degrees.... I would be much happier with "equal" values.
-ve left and +ve right is probably what you can feel at the wheel.
Did they check the castor ? Or just toe ?
dunx
P.S. I may be exaggerating, but seems "out" enough to need adjusting to me !
I would try and reduce the variation side-to -side, -.5 to +1.5 is two degrees.... I would be much happier with "equal" values.
-ve left and +ve right is probably what you can feel at the wheel.
Did they check the castor ? Or just toe ?
dunx
P.S. I may be exaggerating, but seems "out" enough to need adjusting to me !
03 March 2009, 11:27 AM
#14
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The impreza has camber adjustment. Unless you took it somewhere that has a full laser alignment rig they will have only checked the tracking. If your camber is out it could well want to steer in one direction. For example if you wheels are now like this \ \ then it will naturally want to turn left especially if the road cambers towards the kerb. You wheels should either be both upright like this | | or for better handling like this / \
If they check the camber and it is "within tollerances" but one side the camber is a + number and the other is a - number then it will still make the car pull to one side and needs sorting. The whole tolerances thing is pretty rubbish to be honest.
If they check the camber and it is "within tollerances" but one side the camber is a + number and the other is a - number then it will still make the car pull to one side and needs sorting. The whole tolerances thing is pretty rubbish to be honest.
03 March 2009, 01:30 PM
#16
Apologies. I dont know what im talking re-wheel alignment.
I went to my local HiQ garage who used a lazer. they put two lasers on the front and two plates on the rear.
I think the ones on the rear show the wheels are in the same direction, and the ones on the front show their direction relational to each other. From what i saw there was no check of camber.
The one where it was off was on the front wheels. Each lazer shone across the car to the other side. On the scale there was a green bit, the middle, then the red bit.
On one side the lazer shone 1.5 into the green. The other side it shone 0.5 into the red. He said the alignment should be 0, but they subtract from each other making a total alignment of 1deg out. which he said was within tollerance and i got the impression it wasnt work doing so i didnt.
Yes i can see your point on the camber, and i rekon a spin could knock out the camber on a wheel, any tests i can do?
Anywhere with proper awd alignment in berkshire which can check this for me without cost?
On the spin the front swung round quite ricously, so, i would imagine the front left wheel has slightly less camber if anything. That would coinside with pulling left? | - \ for example?
I went to my local HiQ garage who used a lazer. they put two lasers on the front and two plates on the rear.
I think the ones on the rear show the wheels are in the same direction, and the ones on the front show their direction relational to each other. From what i saw there was no check of camber.
The one where it was off was on the front wheels. Each lazer shone across the car to the other side. On the scale there was a green bit, the middle, then the red bit.
On one side the lazer shone 1.5 into the green. The other side it shone 0.5 into the red. He said the alignment should be 0, but they subtract from each other making a total alignment of 1deg out. which he said was within tollerance and i got the impression it wasnt work doing so i didnt.
Yes i can see your point on the camber, and i rekon a spin could knock out the camber on a wheel, any tests i can do?
Anywhere with proper awd alignment in berkshire which can check this for me without cost?
On the spin the front swung round quite ricously, so, i would imagine the front left wheel has slightly less camber if anything. That would coinside with pulling left? | - \ for example?
03 March 2009, 02:27 PM
#18
I think if i could get an alignment check to confirm if that is the issue. Then i can go ahead and buy my new suspension, then get the alignement check done.
The next day is donny in april so i have some time to play with.Wouldnt want to pay twice for alignment if i get new suspension in a couple of months anway...
The next day is donny in april so i have some time to play with.Wouldnt want to pay twice for alignment if i get new suspension in a couple of months anway...
03 March 2009, 04:03 PM
#19
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Apologies. I dont know what im talking re-wheel alignment.
I went to my local HiQ garage who used a lazer. they put two lasers on the front and two plates on the rear.
I think the ones on the rear show the wheels are in the same direction, and the ones on the front show their direction relational to each other. From what i saw there was no check of camber.
The one where it was off was on the front wheels. Each lazer shone across the car to the other side. On the scale there was a green bit, the middle, then the red bit.
On one side the lazer shone 1.5 into the green. The other side it shone 0.5 into the red. He said the alignment should be 0, but they subtract from each other making a total alignment of 1deg out. which he said was within tollerance and i got the impression it wasnt work doing so i didnt.
Yes i can see your point on the camber, and i rekon a spin could knock out the camber on a wheel, any tests i can do?
Anywhere with proper awd alignment in berkshire which can check this for me without cost?
On the spin the front swung round quite ricously, so, i would imagine the front left wheel has slightly less camber if anything. That would coinside with pulling left? | - \ for example?
I went to my local HiQ garage who used a lazer. they put two lasers on the front and two plates on the rear.
I think the ones on the rear show the wheels are in the same direction, and the ones on the front show their direction relational to each other. From what i saw there was no check of camber.
The one where it was off was on the front wheels. Each lazer shone across the car to the other side. On the scale there was a green bit, the middle, then the red bit.
On one side the lazer shone 1.5 into the green. The other side it shone 0.5 into the red. He said the alignment should be 0, but they subtract from each other making a total alignment of 1deg out. which he said was within tollerance and i got the impression it wasnt work doing so i didnt.
Yes i can see your point on the camber, and i rekon a spin could knock out the camber on a wheel, any tests i can do?
Anywhere with proper awd alignment in berkshire which can check this for me without cost?
On the spin the front swung round quite ricously, so, i would imagine the front left wheel has slightly less camber if anything. That would coinside with pulling left? | - \ for example?
Were the readouts on a computer or just on a couple of plates that the laser shines on. Did the guy mention anything about the other alignment measurements. Sounds like it still may not of been a proper alignment rig. A proper one should be able to read the alignment in all angles, the readout is usually on a computer monitor and you should get a printout.
03 March 2009, 04:49 PM
#21
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Where are you?
Greedwood racing developments do it based in Surrey :: GRD - Greenwood Racing Developments ::
Greedwood racing developments do it based in Surrey :: GRD - Greenwood Racing Developments ::
04 March 2009, 11:00 AM
#23
Right Then.
I will get alignment done when i get the new suspension on at the end of the month. For the time being im going to have to try and adjust it myself.
I figure if anything the left needs more camber, and possible the right a little less. Anyone advise on me making a few Tiny adjustments to this to see if it has any affect? Ive been told the scoobs camber is adjustable as standard? Anyone got a picture of what bolts i will need to be adjusting?
I will get alignment done when i get the new suspension on at the end of the month. For the time being im going to have to try and adjust it myself.
I figure if anything the left needs more camber, and possible the right a little less. Anyone advise on me making a few Tiny adjustments to this to see if it has any affect? Ive been told the scoobs camber is adjustable as standard? Anyone got a picture of what bolts i will need to be adjusting?
04 March 2009, 09:02 PM
#26
Scooby Regular
I run 2degs of negative camber all round, but that is not what the OP is asking. 
cmasterscoob,
It is perfectly acceptable to change your own camber and toe..... IF you have the right gauges and you know what you are doing.
Personally.... for the sake of £95 I would get it checked and altered (if required), even if it is for peice of mind. This needs to be done using proper alignment equipment and by someone that knows what they are doing, from my experience. Even if something along the lines of a track rod was bent etc, this can actually be counter balanced by geometry adjustments.
Brake bind can cause a wheel to drag, but would not normally cause wobble.
cmasterscoob,
It is perfectly acceptable to change your own camber and toe..... IF you have the right gauges and you know what you are doing.
Personally.... for the sake of £95 I would get it checked and altered (if required), even if it is for peice of mind. This needs to be done using proper alignment equipment and by someone that knows what they are doing, from my experience. Even if something along the lines of a track rod was bent etc, this can actually be counter balanced by geometry adjustments.
Brake bind can cause a wheel to drag, but would not normally cause wobble.
04 March 2009, 09:20 PM
#27
Yeah im convinced its not brake bind.
I dont have equipment and i dont know what im doing. but ill try and sort it on the weekend anyway as a temp measure untill i fit my new suspension then it will need doing anyway.
As i say its such a slight thing anyway, the car is still totally drivable, just hard braking not as confident as usual.
Thanks for the advice chaps.
So when i get the setup done. you find 2deg neg camber make a big difference?
I dont have equipment and i dont know what im doing. but ill try and sort it on the weekend anyway as a temp measure untill i fit my new suspension then it will need doing anyway.
As i say its such a slight thing anyway, the car is still totally drivable, just hard braking not as confident as usual.
Thanks for the advice chaps.
So when i get the setup done. you find 2deg neg camber make a big difference?
04 March 2009, 09:44 PM
#28
Scooby Regular
2deg neg camber is the best compromise imo for a newage to ensure sharp turn in vs tyre wear based on my experience. I use this setting for both road use and any competition / track day stuff, as the car is an all rounder. If the car was a pure competition car I would slam it to the floor and increase the camber, but then it would not be as good going to the chip shop. 
Whilst I do get scrub on the inner side of the tyres, it is negliable imo. I smash the tread across the entire tyre before I wear just the inner edges to a point that it means the inner wear requires me to replace my tyres.
A FULL geometry check and adjustment can make a WHOLE world of difference to the way a car handles.
Whilst I do get scrub on the inner side of the tyres, it is negliable imo. I smash the tread across the entire tyre before I wear just the inner edges to a point that it means the inner wear requires me to replace my tyres.
A FULL geometry check and adjustment can make a WHOLE world of difference to the way a car handles.
05 March 2009, 07:43 PM
#29
Ok i need some more help. By wobble i mean this...
Just been out for a drive. Sometimes it pulls to the left. sometimes it feels it pulls to the right (could be the car is neutral but im over compensating still).
It seems that when i turn a certain way, it then will pull to the left. If i flick it another way it will be normal again.
Feels like it wobbles from correct to incorrect. Does that make sense?
Also, i think, sometimes it felt heavier to steer then other times (could wrong tracking change the weight needed to corner?)
Tbh i thilnk it feels a littler heavier (i like). But if its fluctuating as i think perhaps its a prob with the steering pump? But i dont think it is. i think its my imagination.
Could the camber adjust have come loose and let the wheel vertically wobble ever so slightly?
Cmon saturday i got so much to do to the car!
Just been out for a drive. Sometimes it pulls to the left. sometimes it feels it pulls to the right (could be the car is neutral but im over compensating still).
It seems that when i turn a certain way, it then will pull to the left. If i flick it another way it will be normal again.
Feels like it wobbles from correct to incorrect. Does that make sense?
Also, i think, sometimes it felt heavier to steer then other times (could wrong tracking change the weight needed to corner?)
Tbh i thilnk it feels a littler heavier (i like). But if its fluctuating as i think perhaps its a prob with the steering pump? But i dont think it is. i think its my imagination.
Could the camber adjust have come loose and let the wheel vertically wobble ever so slightly?
Cmon saturday i got so much to do to the car!