Arse v Utd = 2 Bobbins Refereeing Decisions
16 April 2003, 10:04 PM
#1
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Arborfield, Berkshire
Posts: 12,387
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A lot better match than I thought it would be, even though a draw. However, yet againg the main points of discussion aftermatch will be the two (main) atrocious refereing decisions.
1. Henry's offside. About as blatant as you can get.
2. Campbells elbow. He definetly elbowed Solskjaer but it was not intentionally. It was more being unaware of where Ole was. Yellow card yes, but not red. As for Ole over reacting - cant say for sure. Any kind of punch/elbow to the nose is very painful.
Which hurt the most? Well we lost a goal but Arsenal have lost an important player for 4 games so only time will tell.
Draw seems a fair result in the end even considering the flukey nature of Henry's first goal.
Simon.
1. Henry's offside. About as blatant as you can get.
2. Campbells elbow. He definetly elbowed Solskjaer but it was not intentionally. It was more being unaware of where Ole was. Yellow card yes, but not red. As for Ole over reacting - cant say for sure. Any kind of punch/elbow to the nose is very painful.
Which hurt the most? Well we lost a goal but Arsenal have lost an important player for 4 games so only time will tell.
Draw seems a fair result in the end even considering the flukey nature of Henry's first goal.
Simon.
16 April 2003, 10:08 PM
#2
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Republic Of Mancunia
Posts: 2,474
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Offside was clear as day, comentators and fans at home can see it, but linesmen can't 
Red card was clear too, he knew ole was there and elbowed him, why else would he have his elbow there?
Red card was clear too, he knew ole was there and elbowed him, why else would he have his elbow there?
16 April 2003, 10:32 PM
#3
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 16,517
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Agree with P1. I think the first Arsenal goal was off side also.
I agree that Campbel should only have got a yellow. Will he miss games this season? or will Arsenal appeal allowing him to play all the remaining games!
I agree that Campbel should only have got a yellow. Will he miss games this season? or will Arsenal appeal allowing him to play all the remaining games!
16 April 2003, 10:36 PM
#4
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 845
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree with Simon on this one.
Linesman for Henry's goal should be demoted to schoolboy football. I defy ANY Arsenal fan to argue that Henry was onside.
I think the red card was harsh, given the various replays, but from the Linesman's view it looked pretty bad. But... he definately deliberately swung his arm, and you're not allowed to shield the ball using your arm. He definately made contact with Solskjaer, so you could argue that deliberate elbow or not, it was dangerous play. Even though I think it was harsh, I don't think it will be overturned on appeal.
One that I'll need to see again... was Henry offside for the first goal?
[Edited to add:]
The sending off was not down to the ref. Once the Linesman called it as deliberate, he had no choice.
[Edited by dharbige - 4/16/2003 10:38:45 PM]
Linesman for Henry's goal should be demoted to schoolboy football. I defy ANY Arsenal fan to argue that Henry was onside.
I think the red card was harsh, given the various replays, but from the Linesman's view it looked pretty bad. But... he definately deliberately swung his arm, and you're not allowed to shield the ball using your arm. He definately made contact with Solskjaer, so you could argue that deliberate elbow or not, it was dangerous play. Even though I think it was harsh, I don't think it will be overturned on appeal.
One that I'll need to see again... was Henry offside for the first goal?
[Edited to add:]
The sending off was not down to the ref. Once the Linesman called it as deliberate, he had no choice.
[Edited by dharbige - 4/16/2003 10:38:45 PM]
16 April 2003, 10:43 PM
#5
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Arborfield, Berkshire
Posts: 12,387
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yeah dharbige (is it Dan??) - I forget to say that. The cameras were up close and you heard the ref ask the linesman are you sure "it was deliberate" was the answer. He had no choice if he didnt have a clear view.
Simon.
Simon.
16 April 2003, 11:09 PM
#6
Guest
Posts: n/a
Simon I totally agree with you on this one.
Its refreshing to know that its not just Arsenal fans who thought it was harsh. From the rear camera angle it looked viscious but from the front angle you could see he was trying to shield himself but had no idea where Ole was. Yellow card definately for me. He stands to miss 4 games now so all but one of the rest of the remaining matches. Hope Wenger appeals but like he said its probably a waste of time as the FA are always right
Henry was definately offside for the 2nd goal, only thing I can think is that the linesman saw him walking away from goal and his turn was sharp and the linesman wasn't in line with them at the time.
I think 2:2 is a fair result and that Giggs goal did the game justice in levelling it up.
As for Keane's yellow card that was a disgace as well, I hate the bloke but compared to what Nicky Butt was getting away with all night on Pires, Keane was very very unlucky to get booked. Another case of reputation getting you booked just like happens to Viera all the time.
Another game ruined by officials for me. Can't we hire Colina from Italy for when Arsenal play Man Utd as to me he is the only one who can keep these two sides playing a fair game!
Certainly makes it a good finish to the season for me
Both teams have difficult runs ins, especially this weekend. Right down to the wire this year I reckon.
Its refreshing to know that its not just Arsenal fans who thought it was harsh. From the rear camera angle it looked viscious but from the front angle you could see he was trying to shield himself but had no idea where Ole was. Yellow card definately for me. He stands to miss 4 games now so all but one of the rest of the remaining matches. Hope Wenger appeals but like he said its probably a waste of time as the FA are always right
Henry was definately offside for the 2nd goal, only thing I can think is that the linesman saw him walking away from goal and his turn was sharp and the linesman wasn't in line with them at the time.
I think 2:2 is a fair result and that Giggs goal did the game justice in levelling it up.
As for Keane's yellow card that was a disgace as well, I hate the bloke but compared to what Nicky Butt was getting away with all night on Pires, Keane was very very unlucky to get booked. Another case of reputation getting you booked just like happens to Viera all the time.
Another game ruined by officials for me. Can't we hire Colina from Italy for when Arsenal play Man Utd as to me he is the only one who can keep these two sides playing a fair game!
Certainly makes it a good finish to the season for me
Both teams have difficult runs ins, especially this weekend. Right down to the wire this year I reckon.
Trending Topics
17 April 2003, 12:23 AM
#10
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 758
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If none of you could see that 'the ambulance driver from casualty' deliberatley swung his arm out you should start following bowls or something.
He stepped into the Manc and swung out. The Manc made a meal of it but the facts speak for themselves.
Big ambulance driver against a baby faced Manc, no real need to swing out. But then again the **** seem to get away with flailing arms. (Keown - Van Nistleroy, Berkamp - Bowyer).
Top decision from lino.
By the way I am a neutral so not biased.
He stepped into the Manc and swung out. The Manc made a meal of it but the facts speak for themselves.
Big ambulance driver against a baby faced Manc, no real need to swing out. But then again the **** seem to get away with flailing arms. (Keown - Van Nistleroy, Berkamp - Bowyer).
Top decision from lino.
By the way I am a neutral so not biased.
17 April 2003, 12:26 AM
#12
Guest
Posts: n/a
LOL you then haven't looked carefully at the forward view then as you can clearly see he is trying to palm him off with a hand to the shoulder, his elbow hits face though and from the linesmans view it was very nasty.
Thing is if you get hit hard on the nose it bleeds heavily, there was no blood so I'm suspicious as to whether the baby faced assasin made a meal of it
As for Arsenal getting away with elbows give me a break! Shearer is the number one spanish archer thrower and gets away with it week in week out
Thing is if you get hit hard on the nose it bleeds heavily, there was no blood so I'm suspicious as to whether the baby faced assasin made a meal of it
As for Arsenal getting away with elbows give me a break! Shearer is the number one spanish archer thrower and gets away with it week in week out
17 April 2003, 12:31 AM
#13
Guest
Posts: n/a
I would say Utd played better football definately. Arsenal have been totally out of form for weeks since beating Man City 5-1. I think unless Wenger gives the team a good kick up the backside we are going to find it very hard to beat the remaining teams.
We are not playing to the same level as we did at the beginning of the season or last season where we could beat any team in the World. Now teams like Real Madrid would rip us to pieces. We need a new defence as current one is worst one for 15 years. Gilberto is not the ideal partner for Viera and Kanu and Jeffers are just plain sh!te!
Wenger needs to buy this summer or we will go down hill as other teams strengthen their squads.
We are not playing to the same level as we did at the beginning of the season or last season where we could beat any team in the World. Now teams like Real Madrid would rip us to pieces. We need a new defence as current one is worst one for 15 years. Gilberto is not the ideal partner for Viera and Kanu and Jeffers are just plain sh!te!
Wenger needs to buy this summer or we will go down hill as other teams strengthen their squads.
17 April 2003, 11:12 AM
#14
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Arborfield, Berkshire
Posts: 12,387
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Shearer is the elbow god. He was throwing it around like nobodies business last weekend. On the whole I think it was a fair result although its always a bit gutting to lose to a fluke goal and and offside goal. It sure keeps the title fight alive - I dont think I will have any nails left by the end of the season.
I would never had dreamed that we got 7 points out of Liverpool, Newcastle and Arsenal - especially as we played the top two away.
Simon.
I would never had dreamed that we got 7 points out of Liverpool, Newcastle and Arsenal - especially as we played the top two away.
Simon.
17 April 2003, 11:17 AM
#15
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 845
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just to add something to the debate on Sol's sending-off:
From FIFA Rules Of the Game:
Screening the ball
It is not an offence if a player, with the ball under control within playing distance, screens the ball from an opponent without using his arms.
If however he prevents an opponent challenging for the ball by illegal use of the hand, arm, legs or body he must be penalised by a direct free kick, or a penalty kick if the offence was committed inside the penalty area.
So the argument that Sol was "legitimately" trying to hold Solskjaer off is a moot point.
(And I know, it happens all the time. That doesn't make it a valid defence.)
From FIFA Rules Of the Game:
Screening the ball
It is not an offence if a player, with the ball under control within playing distance, screens the ball from an opponent without using his arms.
If however he prevents an opponent challenging for the ball by illegal use of the hand, arm, legs or body he must be penalised by a direct free kick, or a penalty kick if the offence was committed inside the penalty area.
So the argument that Sol was "legitimately" trying to hold Solskjaer off is a moot point.
(And I know, it happens all the time. That doesn't make it a valid defence.)
17 April 2003, 12:07 PM
#16
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Arborfield, Berkshire
Posts: 12,387
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What about Ruuds push on Campbell when he was shadowing the ball out for a goal kick? How on earth did we get a corner for that? Should have been a free kick to ****.
I for one think ball shadowing really spoils the game but until they introduce a rule then we are just going to have to lump it and play by it.
Simon.
I for one think ball shadowing really spoils the game but until they introduce a rule then we are just going to have to lump it and play by it.
Simon.
17 April 2003, 12:45 PM
#17
Scooby Senior
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Scotchland
Posts: 6,566
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
3times - agree with you 100% (except for the Neutral bit - not sure how Neutral a Hammer can be when it come's to the **** ). Utd should have had three points last night - at least it keeps it interesting for the next few weeks - which can't be bad - all the **** need now is for Spurs to help them out .
Wonder if Sol can sing as well as what's his name from casualty
). Utd should have had three points last night - at least it keeps it interesting for the next few weeks - which can't be bad - all the **** need now is for Spurs to help them out .Wonder if Sol can sing as well as what's his name from casualty
17 April 2003, 01:17 PM
#19
Good game in the end, thought Gooners showed too much respect first half.
Decisions, well sometimes you get them and sometimes you don't, these things do have a way of levelling themselves out.
Hope Campbell decision gets overturned as IMO didn't think it was deliberate.
Decisions, well sometimes you get them and sometimes you don't, these things do have a way of levelling themselves out.
Hope Campbell decision gets overturned as IMO didn't think it was deliberate.
17 April 2003, 01:46 PM
#20
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 845
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Doesn't matter if it was deliberate. Only matters if it was dangerous. If it was deliberate, it's a matter for the Courts.
I also agree with MattW on the Ruud/Sol coming together. Sol set himself to shield out Ruud with his body...Ruud just went in harder with his shoulder. Looked fair to me. (But I was wearing blue-tinted glasses yesterday evening!)
I also agree with MattW on the Ruud/Sol coming together. Sol set himself to shield out Ruud with his body...Ruud just went in harder with his shoulder. Looked fair to me. (But I was wearing blue-tinted glasses yesterday evening!)
17 April 2003, 02:47 PM
#21
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Arborfield, Berkshire
Posts: 12,387
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well I'll have to watch it again as I swear it was a push with the hand and not the shoulder.
I see Henry is complaining about the sending off even though the ref has agreed to review it. Dont see him mentioning the fact his goal was 2 yards offside.
Spurs may do **** a favour but theyve got Saints to come whove taken 3 points off them already and are playing well - that wont be an easy match!
Si.
I see Henry is complaining about the sending off even though the ref has agreed to review it. Dont see him mentioning the fact his goal was 2 yards offside.
Spurs may do **** a favour but theyve got Saints to come whove taken 3 points off them already and are playing well - that wont be an easy match!
Si.
19 April 2003, 12:26 PM
#23
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 845
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, if you're going to get all technical about it, he could have chosen to to book Solskjaer for unsporting behaviour.
But I still mantain that after going over to the linesman and asking him what happened (live, in full view of the camera, and audible on the mikes aswell), after specifically asking him "deliberate?", and receiving the answer "yes", he had no option.
But I still mantain that after going over to the linesman and asking him what happened (live, in full view of the camera, and audible on the mikes aswell), after specifically asking him "deliberate?", and receiving the answer "yes", he had no option.
19 April 2003, 01:56 PM
#25
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Arborfield, Berkshire
Posts: 12,387
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The referee DID have a choice.
He chose to act on the linesman's word........
He chose to act on the linesman's word........
), and bases his decision on the information he is given. IMHO this was the right choice at the time as the assistant was in a much better position to see what happened.Simon.
19 April 2003, 07:54 PM
#26
Pontificating
"Given the amount of pressure"
What pressure??? from whom?? a couple of the Arsenal team made small comments but I did not see 10 players running towards him demanding Sol was sent off or kept on. A ref who makes decisions because of "pressure" beit from players or the crowd should not be reffing a game to start with!
JP on 606 made a valid comment tonight, the English game and the players participating are much faster than they were 10-15 years ago and he feels sorry for the refs who have to make these instant decisions when the game is played at the pace it is. I agree and the old argument of a 4th official in the stands with a monitor has to be the only way forward, so what the game may take an extra 5-10 minutes to complete, big deal. If that had happened on Wednesday Sol would of had a yellow, but how would the 4th "stand" official see the 2nd Henry goal, would he have buzzed the ref and the line to say by the way lads that was two weeks offside dont give the goal?? a bit of a tough one because so many little things are missed you could have my imaginary 4th official blowing up for everything and taking full control of the game which sort of defeats the object.
On that note I wish you all goodbye for two weeks, im off on me hols what a bummer i'm going to have to watch the next two games in a bar drinking ice cold beer complaining about the heat
Dave
What pressure??? from whom?? a couple of the Arsenal team made small comments but I did not see 10 players running towards him demanding Sol was sent off or kept on. A ref who makes decisions because of "pressure" beit from players or the crowd should not be reffing a game to start with!
JP on 606 made a valid comment tonight, the English game and the players participating are much faster than they were 10-15 years ago and he feels sorry for the refs who have to make these instant decisions when the game is played at the pace it is. I agree and the old argument of a 4th official in the stands with a monitor has to be the only way forward, so what the game may take an extra 5-10 minutes to complete, big deal. If that had happened on Wednesday Sol would of had a yellow, but how would the 4th "stand" official see the 2nd Henry goal, would he have buzzed the ref and the line to say by the way lads that was two weeks offside dont give the goal?? a bit of a tough one because so many little things are missed you could have my imaginary 4th official blowing up for everything and taking full control of the game which sort of defeats the object.
On that note I wish you all goodbye for two weeks, im off on me hols
what a bummer i'm going to have to watch the next two games in a bar drinking ice cold beer complaining about the heatDave
19 April 2003, 11:41 PM
#27
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Arborfield, Berkshire
Posts: 12,387
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What about Ljundberg today vs Boro? He went down like a sack of spuds and he only had a hand across the side of his head. Ole had an elbow to his nose and was accused of exaggerating. I dont confess that our team are saints but **** should look a bit closer to home when speaking IMHO.
Simon.
Simon.
20 April 2003, 12:15 AM
#28
Shouldn't Neimi have been sent off ?
Why didn't Ricardo get sent off for being last man (ref Hyppia incident!). Didn't even get a card. Would have been a diff game if he had been sent off, but then I guess the ref knew that.
Not sure if the pressure at the top is now getting to the officials. Too much inconsistency, ruining the game.
Why didn't Ricardo get sent off for being last man (ref Hyppia incident!). Didn't even get a card. Would have been a diff game if he had been sent off, but then I guess the ref knew that.
Not sure if the pressure at the top is now getting to the officials. Too much inconsistency, ruining the game.
20 April 2003, 05:24 AM
#29
Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 19,910
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When I say pressure I mean the fact that he could have been caught on camera and what he said audible.......
If you, as a referee, feel pressure from the fans and let them affect your decisions.....then IMHO it is time to put your whistle away and give up refereeing.
P1Fanatic....yeah I know they are called referee's assistants....all because of this stupid PC stuff. It doesn't bother me one single bit being called a linesmen and I am sure it doesn't really bother other female officials either. Probably some male who thought it better to play safe and bow down to the feminists in this world who probably don't even know what football is.
[Edited by Little Miss WRX - 4/20/2003 5:25:06 AM]
If you, as a referee, feel pressure from the fans and let them affect your decisions.....then IMHO it is time to put your whistle away and give up refereeing.
P1Fanatic....yeah I know they are called referee's assistants....all because of this stupid PC stuff.
It doesn't bother me one single bit being called a linesmen and I am sure it doesn't really bother other female officials either. Probably some male who thought it better to play safe and bow down to the feminists in this world who probably don't even know what football is. [Edited by Little Miss WRX - 4/20/2003 5:25:06 AM]
20 April 2003, 07:59 AM
#30
Scooby Senior
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Scotchland
Posts: 6,566
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
P1 - if ever there was a "crime" suitable for FA "Video evidence" punishments it's diving in it's various forms. I don't know anyone on the planet that likes diving (in football) so why don't the FA get their fingers out and punish this aspect of the game out of the game once and for all ??