Scooby Soon!

I need a little bit of inpartial advice about an alarm for a new Mercedes Sprinter (yr 2007).

I have visited a couple of installers one wanted put wither a toad 850T or clifford concept 650 on it and the other one wanted to put a gemini? (never heard of them) the same installer said it had to be a Canbus system?

He said that because it had a electronic ignition (no regular key just a funny remote type thing) I would need a expensive canbus system?

Can anyone tell me what I need?

"OE Alarm" Sam

We're currently developing a bespoke system for a large courier company who are looking to take the new Sprinter van, so I'm quite familiar with the vehicle.

Although the vehicle does utilise CAN-BUS electrics for a number of systems, it hasn't caused us any problems and a specific CAN-BUS alarm is not necessary, although locating suitable points at which to make the connections can be more time consuming for the installer.
Many installers don't understand CAN-BUS systems, see it as a bit of a Black Art and that vehicles such equipped are off bounds, but this is not the case.
Although the vehicle may have an electronic steering lock, the ignition supply can still be picked up on the NS at the fuse box, as can the perm supply etc. The only complications that we discovered were 1. that each indicator connection (x4) has to be made at the fuse box and the connections dioded to prevent back feeds. 2. The cab door switch wires must be located within the NS and OS doors and again diodes must be used to prevent problems as a result of the dimming interior light.

Our technical department holds the vehicle details to assist authorised installers and for simplicity we would recommend the Toad A850 or Sigma S32 "upgrade" systems. These will arm and disarm when locking/unlocking the vehicle from the factory remote key. It should be noted however, that as with all such "upgrades" (- that rely on the vehicle's original remotes to switch the alarm), the Full Cat 1 status of an "upgrade" system can only be claimed if the vehicle's original remotes have a secure encryption accepted by Thatcham - which is seldom the case.
You may be aswell checking the original Sprinter remote status with Thatcham before installing an "Upgrade" system if a Category 1 system is required for insurance purposes.

Due to our customers security requirements, rather than the Thatcham issue of the vehicles original remotes (above) we have fitted a full Sigma S34 Cat 2 to 1, with its own Radio Keys to operate the vehicle's locking directly (as oposed to using the vehicles original remote). In order to do this, we have had to run additional wires into each cab door, the bottom of the NS bulkhead to access the slide door motor wires (and slide door switch) and the OS rear door harness for the rear door motor wires (and door switch). This additional work would only be necessary if fitting a Cat 2 to 1 "Remote Controlled" Alarm System such as the Sigma S34 or Toad Ai606.

I hope that that goes some way to explaining things - if your installer appears reluctant to take the installation on due to the CAN BUS systems, then it is probably best to take it elsewhere anyway.

With regard to specific product, thats your choice.

SS

Scooby Soon!

So do you think its better holding out for the bespoke system?

Do you actually fit the alarms? I drive all over the country and want to go somewhere that actually knows what they are talking about and I would prefer to take it to someone that already has experiance in fitting alarms on the new Sprinters.

I just emailed Toad directly and they said they dont have anything suitable ??? Its very confusing!

The installer that mentioned the canbus system said that is was all todo with 1's and 0's (binary code) and that my van wouldnt be able to understand anything like i regular alarm because it need a binary feed. It sounded like complete made up rubbish to me!

The sprinter I have is a chassis cab (with a seperate luton body) if possible I wanted to be able to press a button on the new remote to turn off the luton section but keep the front locked and alarmed. The luton body is not connected to the currecnt central locking it is completly seperate.

Scooby Soon!

Forgot to add I wanted either a Toad or Sigma alarm, but I am not paticulary concered about the make I am more concerned on the instalation and experiance of the installer.

"OE Alarm" Sam

The bespoke system I mentioned isn't for general release - its just for the one customer who has some very specific security requirements (doors to automatically lock, only one door to open at a time, touch pads rather than remotes and effectively three interior alarm zones etc).

I design the systems and tailor them to the requirements of large fleets and manufacturers, so generally only do the first few installations and write the instructions, but and take an age fitting!!!

That's a strange response from the e-mail - who exactly did you e-mail, as I'm sat here in the technical office and we've not received such an enquiry. It's quite a big organisation and getting intouch with the right person can be tricky though. It maybe that someone on our sales desk also has the CAN BUS phobia and thinks saying no is playing it safe too!

The CAN BUS system relies on a digital link between various control units whick allows them to communicate using a digital code on just two wires, however, the digital signal cannot power a motor, illuminate a bulb etc and so the conventional connections can found at some point on the vehicle - usually just further away than conventionally.

Being a chasis cab should make matters easier as the CDL and door wire issues for the side door don't apply.
I imagine the Luton has a roller shutter rear door, so a specialist door switch is required with a mechanical (or maybe electrical) shutter lock.
Do you require Thatcham approval for insurance purposes or is it just for your own peace of mind?

Simply using our own products as an examples:
I would suggest the full Remote Operated S34 if Cat 2 to 1 system is required for insurance approval. The cab connections would be made just as I have done for our "bespoke courier system" with the alarm directly operating the vehicles cab door motors and run two additional motor wires (and door switch wire) to the Luton shutter if an electronic lock is to be fitted. Although a full Cat 1, the only downsides here would be 1. The Merc key buttons would do nothing and you would have an additional remote 2.Using the system's remote would unlock the cab and disarm the alarm and then, either at the same time, or on a second press the electronic shutter would unlock. ie the Load area couldn't be opened without first disarming the alarm and unlocking the cab.

The upgrade S32 (or even S12 without battery siren) would be the easiest fit if a Cat 1 system is not required for insurance purposes. The Merc remote could be retained and depending on the Merc Chasis Cab wiring, it may even be possible on the Merc remote to disarm the alarm and Unlock the roller shutter electronic lock whist leaving the cab doors locked.

I think your main issue is finding a local installer who would be comfortable doing the job. The technical office here would be happy to advise the dealer on the connections (for the fitment of one of our systems of course!)

The Toad sales desk can usually advise you of your nearest authorised dealer from your post code or you can try the dealer search at TOADe.com. Try talking to a few of the dealers and find one that you feel comfortable with their attitude toward CAN BUS etc. It shouldn't be like pulling teeth!

SS

Scooby Soon!

Sorry I made a mistake, I tried to email using the TOADE contact form but I get an error (I tried twice) I also emailed another company with the domain toadalarm.co.uk and mistook it for the real toad company. They did reply and told me its not possible to fit anything ( )

i have tried 5 installers so far, the nearest has no VSIB approval, the second nearest is working from a little garage/mobile and the others just dont seem to know what they are talking about!

Its annoying really, if I had called someone and they had told me just some of what you had written above I would have a little bit of confidence with them. Most of the people I have spoke to have no real depth in what they are talking about, I am a little bit concerned in handing over the keys for a vehicle that will cost me £30k + 3 months waiting time to replace if they completly hack the wiring in to pieces and it goes up in smoke!

I will hopefully find somewhere, but I feel that the discounters and ebay sellers have affected the sales of the genuine top notch installers.

Sadly the hunt continues