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Toad Ai600

Old 15 June 2006, 07:34 PM
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scottc_hsv
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Default Toad Ai600

Hi guys i was woundering if any1 had a wiring diagram for a toad Ai600. When i got mine it didnt have it so im trying to find 1 as i realy wanna install the thing lol
Cheers guys
Scott
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Old 15 June 2006, 11:05 PM
  #2  
Sigma Sam
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As you'll be aware the AI606 is a Thatcham Category 1 approved alarm and immobiliser, intended for professional fitment only.
As this case shows, we can't control the sale of the product, however,the installation information is a confidential document of a security sensitive nature, that should only be provided to trained, authorised dealers.
This is the reason that the wiring information is not supplied with the systems.

I would be very dissapointed if anyone were to provide you with the wiring information, thus making it generally available in the public domain, as this jeopardizes the security of all similar installed systems. Anyone releasing this information clearly does not have a genuine interest in vehicle security.

In addition to this, Category 1 systems incorporate at least 2 engine immobilisation circuits. As well as being potentially hazardous if the system is not installed correctly, all security systems are only as effective as the installation and poor adjustment gives products a bad name.

My advice would be to contact your local Toad dealer with regard to fitting the system and setting it up for you correctly.
Dealers, however, will understandably be reluctant to fit a system from an unknown source (due to later problems with your supplied system, warranty claims etc on what they may consider to be a second hand product) so it may prove more cost effective to return the system to your supplier.

SS

Last edited by Sigma Sam; 15 June 2006 at 11:44 PM.
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Old 16 June 2006, 08:56 PM
  #3  
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good for you sigma sam only way to stop thieves from find circuit diagrams sorry scottc no offence but why make it any easier for scum bags
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Old 18 June 2006, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by scottc_hsv
Hi guys i was woundering if any1 had a wiring diagram for a toad Ai600. When i got mine it didnt have it so im trying to find 1 as i realy wanna install the thing lol
Cheers guys
Scott
You have a old system there as Sigma sam says wiring diagrams are secure documents and your alarm will have 3 engine cuts where as new ones only have 2

go to www.toade.com and put your postcode in that will give your local Toad Dealer

Ian
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Old 18 June 2006, 07:11 PM
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They are that secure that they can be bought on ebay for a couple of quid.

Are Toad VTD doing anything about it?
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Old 19 June 2006, 11:05 AM
  #6  
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People are also selling them on ebay with completed certificates. Whats all that about?

Toad seriously need to stop selling to anyone and have more control over their dealers. Bad fits will get Toad a bad name.
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Old 19 June 2006, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by MotorGuard
People are also selling them on ebay with completed certificates. Whats all that about?

Toad seriously need to stop selling to anyone and have more control over their dealers. Bad fits will get Toad a bad name.

PM sent

Ian
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Old 19 June 2006, 07:46 PM
  #8  
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Originally Posted by MotorGuard
People are also selling them on ebay with completed certificates. Whats all that about?

Toad seriously need to stop selling to anyone and have more control over their dealers. Bad fits will get Toad a bad name.
At the end of the day they are only interested in shifting boxes. I doubt that they will be doing anything about the situation.
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Old 23 June 2006, 11:28 PM
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Unfortunately we (Toad VTD) have been trying all means to stop sales of the type discussed, however, unlike Live8 tickets and Blue Peter badges E-bay are unwilling to help close auctions containing "security sensitive documentation" because there is no category specific category (such as "breach of copyright") that the items can be classified within.

It appears that only if the item reaches the national press and shows E-bay in a poor light are they prepared to do anything about it or indeed create new categories for outlawed item. Perhaps we should remember that E-bay get a proportion of the final sale price, so it is in their interests for items to be listed and sell!

It is disappointing that they do not seem to care that such sales could compromise vehicle security. Although it wouldn't meet any existing outlawed categories I'm sure that if I listed a “hack” through the backdoor to the Paypal account system that my auction would get pulled pretty quickly!

It is easy to say we should have more control over our dealers, but the items are seldom listed under a company name, so we cannot trace the seller in order to discuss this with them.
We have done everything available to us to end auctions of security sensitive information.
If anyone can suggest a way that we can counter both items and instructions being listed on E-bay we would be more than happy to hear from you as we have a long term interest in keeping the systems secure and are not so short sighted that we just want to "move boxes".

SS (Toad VTD)

Last edited by Sigma Sam; 23 June 2006 at 11:49 PM.
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Old 24 June 2006, 11:28 AM
  #10  
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I agree with you sigma sam that you can not control what people sell on ebay but you can control who you give dealership to. It is so easy to get a toad account that people can be fitting from home and they can still get an account. I think your sales reps should be more concerned about the reputation of the company then their commission at the end of the month.

How many people have got a toad installer certificate without even attending a training course?
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Old 24 June 2006, 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by MotorGuard
I agree with you sigma sam that you can not control what people sell on ebay but you can control who you give dealership to. It is so easy to get a toad account that people can be fitting from home and they can still get an account. I think your sales reps should be more concerned about the reputation of the company then their commission at the end of the month.

How many people have got a toad installer certificate without even attending a training course?
Hey i have fitted TOAD for 5 to 6 years what is this installer cert i aint got one mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm anmd i am LEEDS MAIN TOAD DEALER

IAN
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Old 26 June 2006, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by MR_TOAD_INSTALLER
Hey i have fitted TOAD for 5 to 6 years what is this installer cert i aint got one mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm anmd i am LEEDS MAIN TOAD DEALER

IAN
That has just backed up what i have been saying.
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Old 26 June 2006, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by MotorGuard
That has just backed up what i have been saying.
Only Cert i got was fitting Vecta immobilisors and cat one alarms years ago before they dissapeared not a bad course but better on City and Guild course.

Ian
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Old 27 June 2006, 08:29 AM
  #14  
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Originally Posted by Sigma Sam
If anyone can suggest a way that we can counter both items and instructions being listed on E-bay we would be more than happy to hear from you as we have a long term interest in keeping the systems secure and are not so short sighted that we just want to "move boxes".

SS (Toad VTD)
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/TOAD-AI606-THA...QQcmdZViewItem

They have been selling stuff on ebay for ages, it has their company name , telephone number and enough details to tell you who they are. Have VTD done anything to stop them? NO. Why?, because your not interested.
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Old 27 June 2006, 09:10 AM
  #15  
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Originally Posted by evolutionice.com
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/TOAD-AI606-THA...QQcmdZViewItem

They have been selling stuff on ebay for ages, it has their company name , telephone number and enough details to tell you who they are. Have VTD done anything to stop them? NO. Why?, because your not interested.
So are they authorised dealers Sigma Sam? If so will you lot be doing anything about it?
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Old 27 June 2006, 02:49 PM
  #16  
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Right Guys.

The link above is indeed to a new product with the product's certificate of compliance within the sealed box.
As I posted before, we cannot control the sale of product whether it be new or second hand, once it has passed from our hands, anymore than Sony can - and there are plenty of their items up for sale on E-bay too.

The products certificate of compliance only states that the product meets the insurance requirement and does not certify the installation.
Unless completed by a professional installer the certificate need not be recognised by the insurance industry.

The wiring details for this item are not included with the product.
As any dealers amongst you (naming no names), who have tried to sell installation instructions or signed certificates of installation on E-bay will know, our sales reps have discussed this with the dealers in question, where they can be identified, and these have now been removed.

It is important to remember here, that an effective vehicle security system relies on both a "Thatcham" approved product and a quality installation. The item for sale here is only one half of the whole package.
"Thatcham" approval (such as this certificate here) relates purely to the product. As a manufacturer this is the only criteria we can ensure.
The VSIB (Vehicle Systems Installation Board) was set up to certify installation standards.

We always recommend fitment in accordance with VSIB standards (Vehicle Systems Installation Board) or better still by a VSIB approved dealer, however, market forces and dealer's freedom of choice dictates whether they become accredited VSIB members - it is afterall a free market and we cannot dictate what organisations dealers should join or how they should run their businesses - they are not franchises.

Ultimately the installation standards are in the interest of the end purchaser and their insurance company and it is these who have the option to insist that the installation is carried out by a VSIB certified dealer.

Unfortunately not all insusrance companies still insist on seeing a VSIB certificate when a policy is taken out, but they will assume that a "Thatcham" product has been professionally installed, and would be within their rights to decline a claim against theft if they found the installation of the the "Thatcham" approved security system had been carried out on a DIY basis - unless this was disclosed to them at the time of quotation.

The VSIB was set up to ensure minimum installation standards, perhaps those dealers concerned with such issues should join the provided they can meet the necessary criteria in order to distance themselves from other "dealers" who they feel are giving the industry a bad name..

The item listed above can be purchased legitimately on E-bay, and could be purchased by another dealer, however if purchased by the general public:
A. It is only half of an effective security system without a professional installation.
B. It will be difficult very difficult to install without the installation instructions.
C.The certificate of compliance is merely stating that "the product conforms to Thatcham requirements".
D. Without professional fitment, the installation itself is not certifed in any way. In fact when the sealed box of this item is opened by the purchaser, a sheet draws the purchaser attention to this.

As ever, this is a case of "Buyer beware".
This item is of as much use to the general public as a new gas boiler without a Corgi registerd installation - buy it and attempt to fit it at your own risk.

SS

Last edited by Sigma Sam; 28 June 2006 at 07:44 AM.
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Old 27 June 2006, 06:43 PM
  #17  
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Baloney.

Alpine dealers have been told that they will have their accounts closed if they sell stuff on ebay or any other auction site. Have a look and see how little there is in the way of brand new Alpines.

IF Toad wanted to stop the supply of alarms via ebay then they could but as i said before you are not interested.
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Old 27 June 2006, 07:24 PM
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Baloney? I'm sorry, I didn't realise you were an expert on the legal aspects of free trade and internet commerce.

So you've seen this threat in print, first-hand have you?
Being told that they will have their account closed is one thing. If you can name one account that has been closed directly as a result, I would be interested to watch the on-going legal battle.

Do you recall the recent case where Levi's tried to stop Tesco selling it's jeans at discounted prices?

We live in a country where free trade exists and dealers such as yourself have benefitted from competition bringing the price of Cat 1 systems down over the years to the level that they are now. Now this competition is just a little too close to home perhaps, but this is not our fault.

We, as other manufacturers, have very little control over how our products are sold on, or at what price. Such meddling can be considered price fixing and how quick we all are to speak up about "rip off Britain" when this happens!

Don't get me wrong here, I agree with the issues regarding Installation Instructions. I was the first to post a comment to the initial request at the top of this thread to deter any assistance to supply these and to make it clear to anyone else considering such a purchase that this not the cheap, easy option that it might first appear to be. We are already acting upon this issue, as I have posted.
I have also explained in my post above, in quite some detail, that the certificate included with the product is only for the product itself and, if not professionally installed, of what little use the product would be to the general public in terms of Insurance Approval - this is the crux of the matter and purchasers should be made aware of this, hopefully these podts will have enlightened them.
We have done what we can to remove products from E-bay, but we have been told that we have no good reason to close such auctions.

I'm sorry if you are unhappy with the society we live in, and that the internet has exposed sale prices nationally leading to increased competition, but to sell the product on, is perfectly legal.
We are not encouraging this by any means, as the product is intended for professional fitment only we will not support it technically, or offer any warranty on it, as no contract exists between us and the end user of a product bought in this manner (and this is explained on the sheet within the box, to discourage these purchases) however, we cannot legally prevent free trade as you suggest, anymore than IM or Subaru Japan can prevent the "grey" imports of new Subarus from European Dealers.

We can't pick and choose when competition suits us, no matter from what medium.

Perhaps we should also discuss the effect that internet shopping is having on the high street stores if you like - is it fair that Currys, Comet etc should pay the same for a product as an on-line retailer, when they have increased overheads from offering the customer a chance to view the manufacturers product, when the majority go to view the product first hand there, then go on the internet for a cheap search and then buy the product from an on-line retailer who has less overheads?
Perhaps you think that the manufacturers should sell the same product to the on-line retailers at twice the price or even prevent sales to the on-line retailers because it's damaging the high street retailers?
We're right back to the legal "baloney" I'm afraid.

SS

Last edited by Sigma Sam; 28 June 2006 at 07:48 AM.
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Old 28 June 2006, 10:49 AM
  #19  
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I have checked on toads website and the company in question are authorised toad dealers. So surely you can say to them that stop or your account will be shut down?

Cliffford will never let a dealer sell on ebay if they don't fit the unit. You can not supply products out. A dealer local to us recently had their dealership removed because of this reason. I'm sure your company has the power to also do this.
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Old 28 June 2006, 06:58 PM
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I was trying to have a day off from typing today - and rest my bandaged fingers!

The points raised in my post above still stand, as a UK registered PLC we have to tread very carefully.
Even if a "fit only policy" could be enforced, we have a number of large customers who legitimately distribute products within the trade to other professional installers and therefore, they do not fit every product. It would be unfair to penalise them, as a result of the actions of others and we cannot have one rule for one customer and one for another.

I still have my doubts whether this could be legally be upheld anyway and would like to hear from the dealer you mention if they have any documentary evidence to support that this was infact the reason the account was closed, unilaterally and against the dealer's wishes, and that this is not just a scare story, circulated to keep dealers in check.
Excuse my sceptisism, but did you hear this from the same source that told you that they had a Cat 1 approved/compatible remote start unit on the way?

If such a policy does exist and can be legally enforced, then I'm a little puzzled by this....
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BRAND-NEW-CLIF...QQcmdZViewItem
and this is not the only listing.
I trust this will be the last item that they'll be selling if the policy you suggest is correct? I shall watch with interest.

It just happens to be the very same dealer that is also selling the Toad product highlighted ealier in this thread.
I have not taken the time to do a search for other manufacturers systems, but I'm in no doubt that an item could be found for each manufacturer.

It a appears to me to underline the fact that this is something that all manufacturers are having to bear and handle as best they can.
It is a little unfair to pick Toad out from any of the manufacturers you could mention and vilify us in this thread, as I can assure you we are doing all we can legally, to keep Thatcham product details secure.

SS

Last edited by Sigma Sam; 29 June 2006 at 08:45 AM.
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Old 29 June 2006, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Sigma Sam
Excuse my sceptisism, but did you hear this from the same source that told you that they had a Cat 1 approved/compatible remote start unit on the way?
From what i also gather it will be called the Intelliguard 1000
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Old 30 June 2006, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Sigma Sam
If such a policy does exist and can be legally enforced, then I'm a little puzzled by this....
It's a contract between the dealers and the manufacturer (Alpine, Kenwood are making an anouncement shortly)

When you sign your Alpine dealer agreement it states that you will only sell the products to the end users. It is a breach of the contract for a dealer to sell the products via a third party ie. ebay. This results in account closure or a removal of appropriate discounts ie. they will have their discounts reduced so that they have to buy them and a much greater price making it uneconomical for them to sell the products competatively.
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Old 01 July 2006, 08:34 AM
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That would be fair enough if the dealer agreed to these terms when signing up.
The problem occurs as the vast majority of our dealers have bean trading with us for quite some years and such an agreement was not necessary when there accounts were set up - in the pre Ebay era!
This is something that we could perhaps look at introducing on new account applications, whereby both parties are agreeable to the terms.

SS
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Old 01 July 2006, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Sigma Sam
That would be fair enough if the dealer agreed to these terms when signing up.
The problem occurs as the vast majority of our dealers have bean trading with us for quite some years and such an agreement was not necessary when there accounts were set up - in the pre Ebay era!
This is something that we could perhaps look at introducing on new account applications, whereby both parties are agreeable to the terms.

SS
Idealy this is something you have to do with all dealers no matter when they signed up. If they dont sign the new agreements then offer them less discounts (if any). Simple and legal
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Old 03 July 2006, 11:01 AM
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Sigma sam what it sounds like is that your trying to defend your company which is fair enough. If you looked at the dealer in question then they are selling Toad alarms as supplied only but with the Clifford alarms they are supplied & fitted. Clifford don't have a problem with dealers selling on ebay if they are fitting the goods themselves. This way you can still control the quality of fits.

The dealer in question is surely doing wrong by just selling your goods to anybody? If nothing can be done about it then surely your company is only interested in shifting boxes?
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Old 03 July 2006, 03:49 PM
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I hear what you are saying and your suggestions are something that I will discuss with our sales team, however, I imagine that from a company point of view, as I posted above, this could be difficult as we have a large number of customer who are legitimate distibutors to other installers, so such a policy would impact on their business if enforced and I do not see how we can have different rules for different customers. Offering different discounts is a possibility, but would only be effective up to a point.

With regard this policy that you are suggesting to control sale of product, the link I posted above is to an item that makes no mention of fitting. Infact it offers a postage cost subject to discount if you take a quantity of product - surely this makes fitting out of the question? Please take a look:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BRAND-NEW-CLIF...QQcmdZViewItem

Additionally the dealer is offering vehicle wiring information, so the manufacturer has no control of the quality of the final installation (or the other 48 available) any more than any other manufacturer has.

The fact that this item is listed supplied only, does question the effectiveness of the policy that you are championing and shows that if such a policy exists between the seller this manufacturer, that this is very difficult to police and enforce.
In theory it sounds like it could work, but in practice the above listing is showing that there are still holes

SS

Last edited by Sigma Sam; 03 July 2006 at 04:45 PM.
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Old 20 August 2010, 07:18 PM
  #27  
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Default toad ai600

Originally Posted by MotorGuard View Post
That has just backed up what i have been saying.
hey i have toad alarmbut idntwant it 2 imob engine i only want 2 install the central locking, power windows and alarmcan any 1 help email [email protected]
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Old 21 August 2010, 10:11 PM
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you will be lucky nearly all them members are banned and the last post was in July 2006
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Old 22 August 2010, 11:57 AM
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What do you want to know
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