Dougy Giro

Alan - I can see entirely where you are coming from. But the V1 is better at detecting Laser aswell as Radar. The better the detection, the better the scatter pickup, the more chance.

If you've dramatically gota reduce speed, you aint exactlly got time to look at display anyway !!

Accident black spots are usually marked, be it with a speed limit (ie 50 mph on duals) or red road markings or cameras in area signs.

Cant remember me, or anyone saying they were gonna use it to speed anywhere! (thats me off my hign horse now!)

Like i said before IMO the only advantage a GPS has is with Truvelo/Specs sites, and i'll forego these for an excellent Radar/Laser Detector. Its all about what you want from the unit, just wish they made a V1/Road Angel/Jammer combo - but they dont.
It'll be the size of Yorkshire anyway !!!


Cheers
Dave


[Edited by Dougy Giro - 7/1/2003 1:12:30 PM]

Alan C

Ajax, absolutely.

I'm not going to buy a diffuser, as they are illegal to use.

But the question is, how many forces have the ability to be at the end of your street waiting for you to get home at an unknown time, becuase they got a bunch ao gibberish on a laser screen when they zapped you (possibly, as they have no proof!) speeding?

If it happened several times, them they would come and have a chat, but I believe the law is that you are allowed to own and fit a diffuser, but you are not allowed to turn it on.

A Bit like a radio scanner. You can own one, but you can't listen in to police frequencies that are pre-programmed. In order to be done, you have to be caught (taped and recorded probably) listening to it.

Definately a grey area.

[Edited by Alan C - 7/1/2003 2:32:05 PM]

Alan C

As the purchase of my replacement Scoob nears, I am looking at fitting the various security and 'making progress' licence protection options. I should be protected from fixed GATSO with SmartNav, but what about mobile?

I've read the advertisement blurb and seen people selling units here. But as I have never owned a detector, and from a 'real world' perspective, how good are these units? And can they actually protect me rather than telling me that I've just been done?

For example, can you RELIABLY spot a trap BEFORE it spots me? I've heard that as soon as the unit detects a LASER trap, your done. Simple.

Can GATSO, as I drive up from behind the unit, be spotted before I've passed it? With inductive loop detection, how far ahead can these be detected without actually driving over the buggers.

What about being followed by a radar equipped patrol car? I saw a Valentine 1 up for sale and thought how often would I need rear facing protection?

Real world examples would help me (and others reading this post)make an informed choice. You can list units if you wish, but I'm after their real world capabilities.

Muchos.....

Al.

ZAZ

I have a Bel550 (the Valentine1 is better but more expensive) which picks up fixed Gatsos at a reasonable distance but have never come across mobile units although they apparently emit more stray radar than fixed cameras so should be easier to pick up!

If you get hit by a laser you have to be very, very quick on the brakes as the guns only emit laser when actually aimed at a vehicle, I have a friend who has an older Bel detector and he has managed to get away with it once. They have to take something like 3 readings so you have some chance to slow down but not much! If you want to be safer about lasers get a diffuser/jammer (dubious legality though).

As for the induction loops, they should be picked up by your SmartNav I would have thought as they are fixed sites!

Car wise I think that they just have cameras that record you and the speed that they are travelling, I don't think they emit any signals so detectors don't pick them up so you just have to use your eyes for them I'm afraid!

Hope this is of some use. Check out http://www.ukspeedtraps.co.uk/frames.htm as it has lots of details about the cameras and detectors.

NorthDave

I have a Snooper 815i which I use. It is excellent- you get plenty of warning on the fixed cameras. I dont think I have ever been lasered but the idea is they would more than likely laser somebody in front of you as the cars approach and as they can detect up to a mile away you get plenty of warning.

Can't recommend them enough although the false beeps can be annoying at first.

Cheers

Dave

Dougy Giro

Hi,
I just got a Valentine 1. I'm CONSIDERING doing a group buy - need 7 buyers. It will then cost approx £320. Which is an massive and excellent saving - cheapest i've seen is £519.

Even if i dont do a group buy (or get the numbers) i can still get it for about £350. Still damn good !!

IMHO - Its without doubt the best theres is !! (YES - They all say that - but this one is !!)

See this link - and take time to read all pages - excellent.
http://www.valentine1.com/lab/

Cheers
Dave

Alan C

May not be of much help, but keep me in mind.

I've got essentials to get yet such as the car, insurance etc!

What money I've got over will be put to alarm and detector.

Al.

Monkeh

I have a snooper s6, and have been caught by a mobile camera when it was switched on !!!

I think they use video cameras instead of lasers, so there is no was to detect them.

I am going to buy a GPS one ans they will detect the fixed camers 99% of the time

Dougy Giro

Videos cameras cant measure speed by themselves.

GPS systems are very good. But they must only know where the STATIC sites are. In which case you would still have been done, coz you said it was a mobile unit. So its the mobile gatso's and traffic cops that are difficult to spot, and a GPS aint gonna help you with them. Yes GPS systems generally have detectores in them - but probably as good as your Snooper's Detection !!

Get the best - Get A Valentine 1 - you wont regret it.

cheers Dave

Alan C

I've heard that some GPS systems have known mobile sites stored.

Though it's appreciated that mobiles move (Duh!) it still helps to know that you are approaching a Mobile 'Blackspot'.

But with a tight budget, it's good to know that 'real life' situations such as the one Monkeh was in can flag up the limitations of these devices (as long as it is fitted correctly and working of course!)

Am I right in assuming that owners update the main location database themselves (or via an operator) with new fixed cameras, mobile sites and inductive loop sensors etc etc????

Al.

Dougy Giro

Its just that I'm not quite sure what benefit a GPS sysytem has over a GOOD detector. The only thing i can think of is that a detector wont alert you if the camera/radar is not working (it has nothing to detect). So you go past a camera and think "why didnt that go off? - Sh*te it must be knackered". Then the seeds of doubt are sown. Is it working, how good is it?


Mobile camera "blackspots" have to be signed. So I know when i'm entering a "blackspot" (the couple i know are some 2 miles long) consequently a more vigilant approach is adopted.

So what will the GPS do - it'll just confirm this i suppose.

I think most if not all (otherwise they are out of date as soon as you've bought it) have an update facility - dunno if they are done by the ownwer or via an operator though.

Alan C

Good point mate.

And that's the whole point of the question I raised really.

Real world means that a GOOD detector, properly fited, will or should alert you to the fixed Gatsos anyway. Why pay the premium and monthly fee to GPS them when mobiles, which GPS's can't loacte on a'real time basis' are going to get you anyway. At least a detector will alert you to the fact that a mobile is operating.

It just means that to have a 'belt and braces' approach you would need to buy both units, or pay for a combo system.

Spillin over from the 'group buy' thread, does the Valentine have a 'in dash' fiting option with a small unit placed on the dash / front grill rather than the whole unit sat there, which is a magnet for some toe rag to break into the car?

Dougy Giro

Thats the crux (is that a word??) of the matter really. - IE is the combo units Dectection part good enough. IMHO i think not (well a least not the best)

If you have a good detector - you dont need a GPS. Thats the i'm looking at it anyway.

No they cant be mounted in the grill or whatever coz its the only Detector made that has Front and Rear facing Antennas. (thats why its has a good rear and wide angle detection). So obviously it needs to be mounted so it can "look" backwards through the rear window. So it comes with a windscreen mount. But it also has a Sunvisor mount. Both of which are one handed in their opperation.

A concealing unit can be bought (£40), which can be mounted anywhere (in instrument binacle or in ciggy lighter) then the main unit is "blacked out" To be honest all this will do is stop PC Pig from seeing it (and harrassing you) and other drivers tailgating you and living off your protection ! (Ive never known this to happen though!!)

Cheers

Editted to add - Removal is the only way to stop the toe rags !!
But it a one handed opperation.



[Edited by Dougy Giro - 6/27/2003 3:11:21 PM]

Ajax

Road Angel is good and cheap works on gps and has a gps Speedo

The laser detector wont help you because as soon as you detect it, your speed has been checked.

Don’t count on lasers detection as the beam is small, 300mm at 100m range

Note jammers also work only if you can detect them, so the detector needs to be down by your plate front and rear and also in the front and rear screen.

When they zap you from the motorway bridge, your windows are vertical to the laser reflection, otherwise its your index plate from road level




[Edited by Ajax - 6/30/2003 12:15:22 AM]

Ajax

Confused now Alan C
Your thread is Radar Detectors

Mobiles use Laser, - be afraid very afraid!
Gatsos use Radar, GPS & Laser pick these up

Then there is Specs and Truvelo only GPS pick these up


Don’t get confused, know the enemy!

You could otherwise obey the law and save a fortune in fines and detection equipment, bet you never thought of that one ROFL

Alan C

Ajax,

Clear as mud!

The way the thread is panning out is that peoples 'real world' experiences should build up a nice picture of what does the job. With all the various ways of being monitored, there doesn't appear to be a one box solution.

Your comment on lasers, which is a tiny contradiction to what Zaz said, is that there are some myths and old wives tales about these units and what they can do for you.

It's good to be able to get a proper low down on them in order to make that informed choice. Keep it coming!

Aaaa, that old 'stick to the law' argument. We all know that the law can be an *** sometimes. As an advanced driver, and had the privilege of taking a 'road craft' tutorial with a met instructor, there are many circumstances where sticking to the indicated speed can be quite dangerous. Exceeding the speed limit, in the right conditions, the right car, the right training and with good vision etc, can actually prevent situations arising where an accident is more likely to happen.

Cameras do not have the ability to differentiate between this 'safe' speed and downright unsafe 'speed'. Most people don't realise that traffic cops are actually superb at detecting that difference. They can tell (most of the time) when that speed or maneuver is dangerous, foolhardy, stupid or indeed relatively safe.

A detector is an aid for safety; it shouldn’t be used to condone speeding. I believe that cameras are now being used more and more at accident black spots, rather than just revenue earners for the local constabulary. It will take time, but hopefully all cameras will end up being used this way.

Your detector then is an advanced warning aid that you are entering an accident black spot. Right? Mine will be too

I wasn't planning to talk about the REASONS behind owning a detector, as I'm sure that's been done before! But hey, I'm in debating mood just now......

Ps... I'd like to post a 'smilie' but mines not working. Just an error page saying that it's not available. Ideas?

Al.

Alan C

Ignore my smilies comment...







[Edited by Alan C - 6/30/2003 10:18:07 AM]

Dougy Giro

Because Laser is so instant, theres not much you can do about it.
However a good dectector will (should !!) dectect any scatter from anyone infront of you being Zapped. I suppose it might give you a fighting chance.

Alan C

So up tp now, we've established that a;

Detector will give you warning of accident blackspot GATSO, Mobile, Inductive loop and Laser (if you are quick / lucky)

GPS will protect against GATSO / inductive loop / Truvello / Specs / Some mobile.

A reasonable/good Detector only will cost IRO £200 - £500 (valentine 1).

GPS or combo (Snooper S6 NEO) unit will cost approximately the same but with a monthly (£10?) premium.

Is this mist clearing?

Ajax

Alan C:
Yep that's quite right
Note radar only detectors are out of date forget them!
---------------------------------------------------------------
Your Choice is spend £400 + £50 per year subscription (first year usually free)
for a combo detector GPS + Laser, like Road Angel
----------------------------------------------------------------
Jammers will soon be illegal to own, perverting the course of justice, by the way they know if you use the and your index is still recorded in the road safety van.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Nothing combats laser, until its detected, then in most cases its to late as used in road safety vans and plod standing at the side of the road in the yellow coat

Or risk being a statistic

Simple as that, just cuts down the odds of being caught

sillysi

I used to use a Bell 990i radar detector and it was very good at detecting fixed Gatsos, but that is as far as it goes in the real world. It will not detect anything else IMO other than a few automatic doors! This goes for all other radar detectors IMO. Forget laser detection and don't think there will be enough scatter from another car, there won't.

I now use a RoadAngel with the laser alert. This IMO is a far better solution as it can warn of all fixed devices that are in it's database, as above forget laser detection as it will only warn you you have been caught if you were speeding and that is it.

For me it came down to where I drive, I used to only drive locally but started travelling further a field. I liked the idea of the RoadAngel as it would warn me of far more sites than a radar detector and has done. When traveling locally I don't use any thing as I am aware of all the sites and as I have said if you get caught by a laser then tough luck.

Si.

Alan C

Yep, all of that makes perfect sense.

Ajax, thanks for pointing that the Laser diffuser can be detected doing it's job. Are you able to turn it off when you are back on the limit to give agood reading? Or is it that obvious from the operator that they have been jammed, and you get a summons through the post afew days later?

Regardless of the diffuser issue. I appear to be drawn to the neo S6 or the Road Angel.

I know the Road Angel is selling alot, but from looking at the pictures, I like the S6's mounting option behind the front grill (assuming it has enough clearance) with only a small GPS antenna on the dash with the main module mounted in or flush mounted somewhere on the fron of the dash, rather than a big all in one unit sat on top of the dash that looks good to nick (I know it can be removed, but still a right royal pain of you are just popping in somewhere for two minutes)

I also like the S6's display. IMHO it looks the better at displaying the releveant information.

Dougey Giro. Has this changed your mind from the valentine? I'd be interested to know your thoughts as this discussion has helped me reach the above conclusion.

If so, how about a S6 group buy?

dave cos4x4

SillySi, if your detector was v.good at getting the fixed gatso's, why get another,more expensive one that does the same job.
Did you not have confidence in your first one(been caught maybe?.
Why did you opt to buy a new one?

Thanks,
Dave.

Ajax

Alan C:

I have sat in the road safety van, and seen it for myself
I was told by the operator that the video that is made of the car, instead of putting the correct speed at the top of the picture turns it into false characters of rubbish.

Mind you the video and the video print of the vehicle still shows the index.

It is now not illegal to own, only to use.
It will only be a matter of time before a test case changes all that, then you will be out of pocket with illegal equipment that you cant own or use, that perverts the course of justice.

That will make a speeding fine look cheap!


You can mount road angel anyware, just need the active antenna and piggy back a laser detector to the front of the car.

Problems don’t forget the bridge laser cameras off the windows and the rear of the car.

My advise, buy a Road Angel it has a good up to date database that’s the most important issue. cut down your odds

The digital Speedo at near eye level on the dash is perfect, I use it all the time.
Police cameras in cars and laser, you have no legal protection from them.
Don’t speed, and take risks and you will be safe. never overtake in an accident blackspot it’s in your best interest.


[Edited by Ajax - 6/30/2003 10:43:49 PM]

Alan C

Ajax,

How can they tell that they have been jammed if all they get is a bunch of gibberish on the screen? The only way that they can prove they have been diffused is if they pull you over straight away and check for the device, or they call around your house to do the same after getting you licence plate.

Surely you cannot be held accountable for a garbled reading if they have no immediate proof that they were actually jammed. That would be extremely dodgy for them if all the false or garbled readings were taken at face value as being jammers. I must add that I have experience of electronic jamming techniques (hence my interest here) and have operated anti-jam and jam detection equipment, all of which could be easily stored in the van to give them a pretty good idea of the frequencies and signatures involved from your unit. But I do not know if this sort of equipment is used in such mobile units and I do not know the official operator/equipment error rate of such a targetted device, but it certainly isn't Zero.

Your approval of Road Angel is noted. I will pop down to a local fitter and look at the unit in the flesh and seek direct advice and comparison with the S6 there.

Dougy Giro

Alan C - There are Pros and Cons for all systems.(Need em all really!!!) But - My Basic thinking is that i dont trust the Radar/Laser detection part of a combined GPS n Detection system. The V1 is a solo dectection unit and "obliterates" anything its put up against, so i dont believe these combined units can have this sort of technology in their smaller casings - its just not possible - IMO.

I can certainly appreciate why people like the likes of Road Angel etc,... But like i said before its what YOU consider to be the greatest threat. For me i'd prefer the best protection against mobile units (mini gatso's/radar/laser etc) which has to be the V1 - but then again we dont have many Truvelo or Specs sites up here - YET!!!

Cheers
Dave

Alan C

DG.

As you said, it comes down to what you need it for.

If all you do is travel around your local area that you know particularly well, then a detector just becomes a much simpler aid.

But on a visit to an unknown area, a combo unit comes into its own. You may know how many Truvello / Specs are in your area, but what about mine? Or Birmingham?

From the 'real world' where this thread started, the V1 may be more sensitive and may give you some advantage over a combo unit on a mobile radar (not laser, which is more common), but the fact is that you would need to buy a GPS unit in order to cover the Truvello / Specs areas that you may visit.

One other point is that with a GPS, you are given ADVANCED warning that you are coming up on a site that is commonly used as a mobile site or even an accident blackspot site that may have a mobile active. A Combo driver will slow down and go around that corner and may find there is nothing there. But as we know with laser, and without that advanced warning, a V1 user will go round the bend with no knowledge of whats on the other side and it will just give you a fraction to react to an active site.

In other words, I will have reduced speed on the off chance that it is active. A V1 or lone detector user will have to dramatically reduce speed on the confirmation (because that's what it will be)of a laser hit.

This prior warning is safer in all respects, especially in approaching accident blackspots. That itsels is worth getting GPS alone.

We must not loose sight of the fact that a detector, in whatever form, is an aid to safer driving and not as a protective device to
enable you to speed everywhere.

I'm not getting heavy or on a high horse, honest!

Ajax

Alan C:
Question: How can they tell that they have been jammed if all they get is a bunch of gibberish on the screen?
-----------------------------------------------------------

They know your index and where you live, all they have to do if wait at the end of your street with a gun (laser of course)

Perverting the course of justice is a criminal offence!

Alan C

Dave,

It may not have come accross as such but I was using the Royal 'You' and was aiming at a generalisation about speeding.

I'm not selling the S6, or trashing the V1, just trying to look into their abilities and how they will help ME in my situation.

You again make a good valid point about the sensitivity of the V1 and it's ability to pick up laser scatter, which is good. But laser scatter will be in the order of a few feet at 1/2 a mile. Radar scatter could be hundreds of meters.

Therefore if you picked up laser scatter, you can bet that the guy next to you has been targetted, giving you time to slow.

But the question is; Is the V1 laser capability THAT MUCH better than anything else that even with a direct laser hit, you will have enough time to slow?

As I learn more about them, I don't think it will. The targetting is done without the Laser swithced on. It is simply a optical targetting of an individual suspect vehicles. When the operator thinks he has someone, he then pushes the button. Three to seven readings are taken within a few hundred milliseconds. Your speed is calcualted at the speed of light.

Unfortunately, from what I can gather, the V1 will tell you a few hundreths of a second earlier. The only REAL advantage that a more sensitive detector might do, is tell you if the car next to you is being illuminated.

Unless I see the reality that a V1 can defeat such a threat by giving me a several second lead time, then I'm afraifd the only way to really defeat them is by diffusing (which is illegal) or by doing the right speed (pre-warned or travel at rhe right speed all the time)

Take a look at the following link;

http://www.howstuffworks.com/question396.htm

One of the better sites I have seen up to now that gives you the view from a neutral point of view rather than a laser detector manufacturer telling you how they work!!

This is turning out to be good debate!

Al.

dba

I have the Snooper S6 Neo,GPs and radar/laser built in,its very,very good,

i got it tbh because it has an in built modem and downloads via the phone line

works very well