ring times for standard turbo
04 April 2001, 10:11 AM
#1
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I noticed that in the hall of fame at the Ring, the standard Turbo is slightly lagging the M3 and some way behind the Lotus Esprit. I haven't been there yet but watching videos most of the curves seem to be broad sweeping ones that a lot of cars can take fast, I was wondering if this might account for a possible lack of advantage? Of course there could be loads of other factors like different drivers, conditions etc. I'm only interested in the standard model so lets not worry about the 'ah but the P1/22B/RB5 could do it much quicker .
Also, do you guys who go follow the advice I read somewhere about the points between which you measure your lap times and adding on 23s?
Also, do you guys who go follow the advice I read somewhere about the points between which you measure your lap times and adding on 23s?
04 April 2001, 01:15 PM
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Most people seem to time from BTG (bridge to gantry). The problem with this is that you're not at full speed when you pass under the bridge, and top speeds vary hugely from car to car.
There's no real way to get accurate lap times unless you take part in a private event.
Oh, and 8min 27secs is my best BTG time.
Stef.
There's no real way to get accurate lap times unless you take part in a private event.
Oh, and 8min 27secs is my best BTG time.
Stef.
04 April 2001, 04:09 PM
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The difference could ba as simple as driver talent, and numbers of cars having a go. I'd say that there would be a LOT more M3's going round the ring than standard UK turbos, add in the power difference (and no loss of power through 4 WD on the M3) and I think you have your answer.
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04 April 2001, 05:46 PM
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Just to keep the facts straight: it is normally accepted that the times from Sport Auto are a good reference for the cars in question. The driver that does the tests is always the same one (Horst Von Saurma), and he is pretty familiar with the Ring (big understatement).
Scooby time was 8:37, M3 (previous model) was 8:25 if I'm not mistaken, new M3 a bit quicker. I think his best lap in a "street legal productioncar" was 7:56 (6000 BHP Porsche)
The difference is not so much horsepower (certainly not the be all- end all at the Ring), but - according to SportAuto again - the width of the tyres in the case of the Impreza.
Oh, and he was absolutely over the moon with the performance of the Scooby.
Theo
Edit to say that they use the full Ring for these tests, and don't have to stop at the normal start/finish. So they use the full length of Dottinger Höhe. The Scooby looses a few secs on V-Max there (about 230 real km/h) compared to the other cars.
[This message has been edited by EvilBevel (edited 04 April 2001).]
Scooby time was 8:37, M3 (previous model) was 8:25 if I'm not mistaken, new M3 a bit quicker. I think his best lap in a "street legal productioncar" was 7:56 (6000 BHP Porsche)
The difference is not so much horsepower (certainly not the be all- end all at the Ring), but - according to SportAuto again - the width of the tyres in the case of the Impreza.
Oh, and he was absolutely over the moon with the performance of the Scooby.
Theo
Edit to say that they use the full Ring for these tests, and don't have to stop at the normal start/finish. So they use the full length of Dottinger Höhe. The Scooby looses a few secs on V-Max there (about 230 real km/h) compared to the other cars.
[This message has been edited by EvilBevel (edited 04 April 2001).]
04 April 2001, 06:28 PM
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Personally I'd be disappointed with a 7'56", in a 6,000bhp Porsche. 
Some of the camera angles used on videos can be misleading. I saw one of a Porsche 911 that made much of the track look straight. Reality is very different. The second half of the track is really twisty and tight.
The Scooby loses alot of its time through a lack of top end. There are 3 long sections which although not always straight, are flat in the Scooby. There are alot of hills to get up too. In these areas more grunt would be beneficial. Another problem is trying not to overheat the tyres, the tendency to understeer means that the Scooby is quicker when being hurled about
but on a 13 mile lap the grip is totally gone about 5 miles before the finish if you attack the first half of the lap. Or maybe that's just my cheapo tyres. Sport Auto used PZeros. I've got a set of those to try next time.
P.S. Harj, I'll be bringing a calendar to measure your times mate! Anyone wanting to scalp an RS200, please form an orderly queue at the gate. There'll be plenty of time for you all to get by. LOL
P.P.S. ABS is cheating, turn it off Stef. It makes the lap alot more "interesting". The major braking zones are very badly rippled.
Some of the camera angles used on videos can be misleading. I saw one of a Porsche 911 that made much of the track look straight. Reality is very different. The second half of the track is really twisty and tight.
The Scooby loses alot of its time through a lack of top end. There are 3 long sections which although not always straight, are flat in the Scooby. There are alot of hills to get up too. In these areas more grunt would be beneficial. Another problem is trying not to overheat the tyres, the tendency to understeer means that the Scooby is quicker when being hurled about
but on a 13 mile lap the grip is totally gone about 5 miles before the finish if you attack the first half of the lap. Or maybe that's just my cheapo tyres. Sport Auto used PZeros. I've got a set of those to try next time.P.S. Harj, I'll be bringing a calendar to measure your times mate!
Anyone wanting to scalp an RS200, please form an orderly queue at the gate. There'll be plenty of time for you all to get by. LOLP.P.S. ABS is cheating, turn it off Stef. It makes the lap alot more "interesting". The major braking zones are very badly rippled.
04 April 2001, 06:39 PM
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>>Personally I'd be disappointed with a 7'56", in a 6,000bhp Porsche.
LOL
Sad thing is: I'd probably would be happy still with that time
I am still genuinly wondering BTW why Horst Von Saurma didn't think there was an understeer problem with the standard car.
That said, I have to agree with tyre overheating. On my sub 15 day calender laps ( ) I noticed that my SO2PP's overheat very quickly, even at my pace.
LOL
Sad thing is: I'd probably would be happy still with that time
I am still genuinly wondering BTW why Horst Von Saurma didn't think there was an understeer problem with the standard car.
That said, I have to agree with tyre overheating. On my sub 15 day calender laps (
) I noticed that my SO2PP's overheat very quickly, even at my pace.
04 April 2001, 07:33 PM
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"I am still genuinly wondering BTW why Horst Von Saurma didn't think there was an understeer problem with the standard car."
-Can't have been going quickly enough
It may be that he has a different style to most of us. I suspect that he is much more committed to the corners and is still braking through the first half of each corner. :O This technique would eliminate the understeer wherever braking is required. Personally I wouldn't fancy arriving at many of the circuit's corners at the kind of speeds that this technique would allow/necessitate. I've got enough bruises already.
Knowing that the car will understeer at will is quite reassuring. It's great for Hatzenbach for instance where little or no braking is required and the corner speeds aren't too high. It gives you the confidence to attack the corners and know that the car will not bite you.
-Can't have been going quickly enough
It may be that he has a different style to most of us. I suspect that he is much more committed to the corners and is still braking through the first half of each corner. :O This technique would eliminate the understeer wherever braking is required. Personally I wouldn't fancy arriving at many of the circuit's corners at the kind of speeds that this technique would allow/necessitate. I've got enough bruises already.
Knowing that the car will understeer at will is quite reassuring. It's great for Hatzenbach for instance where little or no braking is required and the corner speeds aren't too high. It gives you the confidence to attack the corners and know that the car will not bite you.
05 April 2001, 09:58 AM
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by EvilBevel:
<B>I am still genuinly wondering BTW why Horst Von Saurma didn't think there was an understeer problem with the standard car.[/quote]Probably because he's a better driver than most of us....
<B>I am still genuinly wondering BTW why Horst Von Saurma didn't think there was an understeer problem with the standard car.[/quote]Probably because he's a better driver than most of us....
05 April 2001, 03:35 PM
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I dont know if this matters, but if you are talking about standard cars, then the limiter on the M3 allows for a higher top speed by (I think) at least 10 mph than the Subaru. So it might not be the bends as much as the straights that count.
06 April 2001, 12:23 AM
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David,
>>Probably because he's a better driver than most of us....
That is a given IMHO. I dug up the old copy with the test, and he states:
"The limits are clearly defined: understeer is absolutely no part of it's driving program. On the contrary, slight to strong oversteer can always be dialled in at will, without being confronted with iffy reactions"
It was this bit that actually made me realize I hadn't even began to exploit the full potention of this car.
This would be in line with Tony's suggestion: breaking very late to force the back out.
Anyway, top speed at Dottinger Hohe was 224 km, Schwedenkreuz gave a 220 km/h.
>>Probably because he's a better driver than most of us....
That is a given IMHO. I dug up the old copy with the test, and he states:
"The limits are clearly defined: understeer is absolutely no part of it's driving program. On the contrary, slight to strong oversteer can always be dialled in at will, without being confronted with iffy reactions"
It was this bit that actually made me realize I hadn't even began to exploit the full potention of this car.
This would be in line with Tony's suggestion: breaking very late to force the back out.
Anyway, top speed at Dottinger Hohe was 224 km, Schwedenkreuz gave a 220 km/h.
06 April 2001, 11:45 AM
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Harj.
I don't recall receiving any!!!
Moray.
The locals didn't put up much of a fight last time, even the ones in M3's.
Tony.
I think it would be useful if you started a lap behind me this time. Y'know, just for a comparison.
David.
Very good point.
Stef.
I don't recall receiving any!!!
Moray.
The locals didn't put up much of a fight last time, even the ones in M3's.
Tony.
I think it would be useful if you started a lap behind me this time. Y'know, just for a comparison.
David.
Very good point.
Stef.
06 April 2001, 06:09 PM
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Stef,
You're on mate. It'll make good video footage for sure. I just wish that I could be sure that you won't spin it. It's always quite disconcerting following someone who always looks like they are about to have an accident at any moment.
You do remember that the lap on your video where you followed me was one of your early laps and that we were only going gently so that Mr Competitive didn't throw it into the armco trying to keep up? 8:47 wasn't it? As Theo warned, prepare yourself for traffic at Easter like you have never seen before. You won't do many laps below 8:27.
Thanks for the translation Theo, I always wandered what that article said. Nice pictures though!
[This message has been edited by Tony Quinn (edited 06 April 2001).]
You're on mate. It'll make good video footage for sure. I just wish that I could be sure that you won't spin it. It's always quite disconcerting following someone who always looks like they are about to have an accident at any moment.
You do remember that the lap on your video where you followed me was one of your early laps and that we were only going gently so that Mr Competitive didn't throw it into the armco trying to keep up? 8:47 wasn't it? As Theo warned, prepare yourself for traffic at Easter like you have never seen before. You won't do many laps below 8:27.
Thanks for the translation Theo, I always wandered what that article said. Nice pictures though!
[This message has been edited by Tony Quinn (edited 06 April 2001).]
06 April 2001, 06:52 PM
#22
Just be carefull and dont go with the mentality that you should be setting such and such a time, if you do, your coming home in a box unless you are very lucky.
And if your near bikes, dont forget how vulnerable they are, they have poor vision and may not see you coming so give them some room. You wouldnt want an irate biker kicking your door in now would you?
And if your near bikes, dont forget how vulnerable they are, they have poor vision and may not see you coming so give them some room. You wouldnt want an irate biker kicking your door in now would you?
07 April 2001, 05:26 PM
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Tony.
It's just that I'd like some footage of CK1 from behind, and you'll be able to keep up, hopefully.
John.
Don't worry, I'm just going to have fun, as always.
Oh, and to the biker comment!
Have you had chance to see the edited video yet?
Stef.
[This message has been edited by Stef (edited 07 April 2001).]
It's just that I'd like some footage of CK1 from behind, and you'll be able to keep up, hopefully.
John.
Don't worry, I'm just going to have fun, as always.
Oh, and
to the biker comment!Have you had chance to see the edited video yet?
Stef.
[This message has been edited by Stef (edited 07 April 2001).]
LOL
08 April 2001, 01:28 PM
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Stef,
I think that I'm gonna need Paul Wilson's trailer to get out there and a tow rope to keep up with you next weekend, engine went pop last night
I think that I know the problem and I'm not happy about it. More info when the problem is confirmed. I can already hear the dealer saying "backorder to Japan". Wander if they'll give me a loaner for Easter?
I think that I'm gonna need Paul Wilson's trailer to get out there and a tow rope to keep up with you next weekend, engine went pop last night
I think that I know the problem and I'm not happy about it. More info when the problem is confirmed. I can already hear the dealer saying "backorder to Japan". Wander if they'll give me a loaner for Easter?
