Hawkeye Engine Rebuild
27 May 2010, 12:35 AM
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Hawkeye Engine Rebuild
Hi,
I bought a 06 STI Spec D PPP in sep 09 with full subaru service history and 30k on the clock.
In Nov 09 the head gaskets go and I get it rebuilt at a garage for £1700. Details in this thread.
https://www.scoobynet.com/800474-haw...t-right-2.html
The car is running fine now temp wise but is using a lot of oil (1 litre every 200 miles sometimes)
It used this amount of oil before the head gaskets failed.
The car shows no sign of burning oil, there's no leaks underneath.
I took it to scooby clinic and they said it had 'an intermittent compression leak' when they did the compression test. Sometimes it was fine sometimes it failed.
I thought this a bit suspicious as I thought that compression tests either passed or failed and were not intermittent, but hey, i'm no expert.
So I took the car to noble motorsports for a second opinion.
They told me the engine was fine 145 PSI on all cylinders and were confused about scooby clinics analysis.
Not sure on the compression test but this oil is going somewhere, that's for sure.
I had the turbo taken off by noble and they found no oil in the exhaust and no play on the turbo. There was a small hairline crack on the wastegate but I was told that it was common and not the cause of my oil loss.
Basically I just want to get this sorted once and for all and want some advice/quotes on the best route to take for an engine rebuild.
Scooby clinic recommend forged pistons at a cost of £3000 ish.
I know they have a good rep and I do live in Chesterfield so would be handy, but sounds steep to me, didn't really appreciate the immediate analysis of "it's ****ed you need an engine rebuild" in the first 2 minutes of arriving but hey, their reputation precedes them even though it did seem a bit rough round the edges.
Power station offer a fully forged brand new cosworth lump for £3361 + VAT.
http://www.powerstation.org.uk/subaru_cosworth.asp
OK so it needs to be fitted but still not much more money for a lot more engine in my book. New case. forged pistons, rods new crank the lot.
I can just imagine taking my car somewhere to just get the pistons done then being told, oooohhh your cylinder walls/crank/everything is broken it's gonna cost £7000 etc for cheaper parts.
Lateral performance also offer quite good deals on a new short block.
http://lateralperformance.co.uk/sect..._short_engines
I phoned subaru and got quotes of around £3000-£3500 for a new shortblock and that's fitted with a 3 year 60k warranty so could be a good option (even though they still use the same **** pistons and will not swap them for forged ones)
At least with these short block options I still get to keep my original short block which probably just needs new pistons so I could sell on. Reducing the price even more.
What would you do?
The heads were skimmed and the valve seats were redone when the gaskets went so I know the top half is OK. I'm assuming it is piston ring/land failure.
I just want to get this sorted as well as possible for as cheap as possible.
I am running 316BHP with the PPP at the mo but wouldn't mind upping it to 400BHP later on the down the line, I'm not colin Mcrae and yeah i give it some sometimes but most of my driving is dual carriage ways and motorways at 80 mph. All these options do seem very over kill, I'm buying it to drive to work not for a speed attack competition.
I know forged pistons are the way to go, but it's like the options are never ending sometimes.
I don't want some forged piston slapping blue smoke on cold tickover running like bag of nails if i'm spending a lot of money. I want it done right as i'm sick of paying out on this thing and have lost all trust in the car.
If you read the other threads i've posted on you'll see how I was ripped off with the garage I bought the car from, the warranty that came with the car (or lack of it i should say) and the garage that did the head gaskets.
I just don't seem to trust car garages anymore and with good reason. That's why I ask your advice.
Noble seem to fill me with confidence but they are expensive and not subaru specialists.
Scooby clinic have a good rep but i've also heard they do everything well but everything seems to need a full engine rebuild/quotes get inflated after they have the car in bits (and i'm a bit suspicious of the intermittent compression test.) + are expensive too.
I phoned up sheffield subaru service and i'm waiting for them to get back to me but also thinking of trying Andy Williams or any others with a good rep.
None of the garages I have taken the car to have been able to tell me where the oil is going for definite. They make out that I am using less than I think so I took a log.
38313 - 1 litre
38500 - 1 litre
38923 - 1 litre
39246 - 1 litre
No power loss, or oil coming out of the exhaust/leaks underneath. It makes no sense.
Please advise as I love my car but i'm sick of spending money on it. I want to get this sorted once and for all.
Thanks in advance.
I bought a 06 STI Spec D PPP in sep 09 with full subaru service history and 30k on the clock.
In Nov 09 the head gaskets go and I get it rebuilt at a garage for £1700. Details in this thread.
https://www.scoobynet.com/800474-haw...t-right-2.html
The car is running fine now temp wise but is using a lot of oil (1 litre every 200 miles sometimes)
It used this amount of oil before the head gaskets failed.
The car shows no sign of burning oil, there's no leaks underneath.
I took it to scooby clinic and they said it had 'an intermittent compression leak' when they did the compression test. Sometimes it was fine sometimes it failed.
I thought this a bit suspicious as I thought that compression tests either passed or failed and were not intermittent, but hey, i'm no expert.
So I took the car to noble motorsports for a second opinion.
They told me the engine was fine 145 PSI on all cylinders and were confused about scooby clinics analysis.
Not sure on the compression test but this oil is going somewhere, that's for sure.
I had the turbo taken off by noble and they found no oil in the exhaust and no play on the turbo. There was a small hairline crack on the wastegate but I was told that it was common and not the cause of my oil loss.
Basically I just want to get this sorted once and for all and want some advice/quotes on the best route to take for an engine rebuild.
Scooby clinic recommend forged pistons at a cost of £3000 ish.
I know they have a good rep and I do live in Chesterfield so would be handy, but sounds steep to me, didn't really appreciate the immediate analysis of "it's ****ed you need an engine rebuild" in the first 2 minutes of arriving but hey, their reputation precedes them even though it did seem a bit rough round the edges.
Power station offer a fully forged brand new cosworth lump for £3361 + VAT.
http://www.powerstation.org.uk/subaru_cosworth.asp
OK so it needs to be fitted but still not much more money for a lot more engine in my book. New case. forged pistons, rods new crank the lot.
I can just imagine taking my car somewhere to just get the pistons done then being told, oooohhh your cylinder walls/crank/everything is broken it's gonna cost £7000 etc for cheaper parts.
Lateral performance also offer quite good deals on a new short block.
http://lateralperformance.co.uk/sect..._short_engines
I phoned subaru and got quotes of around £3000-£3500 for a new shortblock and that's fitted with a 3 year 60k warranty so could be a good option (even though they still use the same **** pistons and will not swap them for forged ones)
At least with these short block options I still get to keep my original short block which probably just needs new pistons so I could sell on. Reducing the price even more.
What would you do?
The heads were skimmed and the valve seats were redone when the gaskets went so I know the top half is OK. I'm assuming it is piston ring/land failure.
I just want to get this sorted as well as possible for as cheap as possible.
I am running 316BHP with the PPP at the mo but wouldn't mind upping it to 400BHP later on the down the line, I'm not colin Mcrae and yeah i give it some sometimes but most of my driving is dual carriage ways and motorways at 80 mph. All these options do seem very over kill, I'm buying it to drive to work not for a speed attack competition.
I know forged pistons are the way to go, but it's like the options are never ending sometimes.
I don't want some forged piston slapping blue smoke on cold tickover running like bag of nails if i'm spending a lot of money. I want it done right as i'm sick of paying out on this thing and have lost all trust in the car.
If you read the other threads i've posted on you'll see how I was ripped off with the garage I bought the car from, the warranty that came with the car (or lack of it i should say) and the garage that did the head gaskets.
I just don't seem to trust car garages anymore and with good reason. That's why I ask your advice.
Noble seem to fill me with confidence but they are expensive and not subaru specialists.
Scooby clinic have a good rep but i've also heard they do everything well but everything seems to need a full engine rebuild/quotes get inflated after they have the car in bits (and i'm a bit suspicious of the intermittent compression test.) + are expensive too.
I phoned up sheffield subaru service and i'm waiting for them to get back to me but also thinking of trying Andy Williams or any others with a good rep.
None of the garages I have taken the car to have been able to tell me where the oil is going for definite. They make out that I am using less than I think so I took a log.
38313 - 1 litre
38500 - 1 litre
38923 - 1 litre
39246 - 1 litre
No power loss, or oil coming out of the exhaust/leaks underneath. It makes no sense.
Please advise as I love my car but i'm sick of spending money on it. I want to get this sorted once and for all.
Thanks in advance.
Last edited by TheDuke; 27 May 2010 at 12:48 AM.
27 May 2010, 07:30 AM
#2
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Hi mate,
I have a spec d and looks like im following you too, the oil usage is about half of yours (which is still high) and yes, the headgasket etc was done under warranty too.
Hope you get the best solution.
Thanks
Pritesh
I have a spec d and looks like im following you too, the oil usage is about half of yours (which is still high) and yes, the headgasket etc was done under warranty too.
Hope you get the best solution.
Thanks
Pritesh
27 May 2010, 07:36 AM
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Hi,
Scooby clinic recommend forged pistons at a cost of £3000 ish.
I know they have a good rep and I do live in Chesterfield so would be handy, but sounds steep to me, didn't really appreciate the immediate analysis of "it's ****ed you need an engine rebuild" in the first 2 minutes of arriving but hey, their reputation precedes them even though it did seem a bit rough round the edges.
Scooby clinic recommend forged pistons at a cost of £3000 ish.
I know they have a good rep and I do live in Chesterfield so would be handy, but sounds steep to me, didn't really appreciate the immediate analysis of "it's ****ed you need an engine rebuild" in the first 2 minutes of arriving but hey, their reputation precedes them even though it did seem a bit rough round the edges.
The Cosworth engine sounds a nice option
27 May 2010, 07:48 AM
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Yep, you've broken a ring land on one or more pistons.
So essentially SC were correct, it is ****ed
Will be a simple strip, inspect, replace.
Very unlikley you've got a knackered crank etc etc.
It is possible you've scored the bore/cylinder and it may need a hone or rebore.
So essentially SC were correct, it is ****ed
Will be a simple strip, inspect, replace.
Very unlikley you've got a knackered crank etc etc.
It is possible you've scored the bore/cylinder and it may need a hone or rebore.
27 May 2010, 07:59 AM
#5
Perhaps I can shed some light on another way of doing this....
I've been through a recent rebuild on my Spec D recently to cure its leaky head gaskets and decided to do as much as a I could DIY plus keep as much control as I could on costs, plus learn how to do an engine rebuild.
The original plan was to reuse my block and to add some drop in forged pistons with a basic hone. I was already running 370 hp on the std unit and due to the reputation of the pistons, it would be an opportunity to swap them for ones that would see me IRO 400 hp rather more safely.
After a bit of research, I plumped on the Mahle Powerpaks (not the plus version). They are a low expansion drop in set at around £400. I was then going to re-use the existing block as I thought it had no apparent damage and hone it myself.
In the end I chickened out as the block condition wasn't known (would I also need to skim the top?), I hadn't done this work before and tooling costs were an added cost.
The solution was to buy a short block from Paul at Finch Motorsport, due to his reputation and being near to me.
Cost of the block (Mahle Powerpaks, ACL bearings, 11mm uprated oil pump, std rods, skimmed and crown to deck volumes measured) was £1400 total.
Selling the old block yielded £750, so a forged unit effectively cost £650!!
I also managed to snap up some used ARP 11mm bolts for £70.
Amazing value and Paul gives very obvious care to detail on your exact requirements and how he builds the block.
For your power needs the Cosworth blocks are just overkill IMHO.
The other route is to buy a std short block from Subaru at £1600 inc VAT and drop in the Powerpaks with a check on the bore tolerances beforehand.
Don't forget the additional costs on top - value of your time, gaskets & small parts, lubes/3 bond, plugs and any extras that you may want to do while the engine is out and apart such as clutch and timing belt (though not due on yours yet).
Even DIY, I think the extras ran to several £100s plus the clutch was £270.
Work was carried out by renting space and equipment at Zen Performance (big thanks Paul who also gave advice and help at critical stages).
If you handed the work over to a garage to install, then the cost on top of the block is going to be IRO £1500/£2000 to do the job properly and make it last.
In hindsight, I think that if Zen were still doing engine builds then I'd have handed the block over to them as the job took me far longer than expected and was starting to interfere with my work - but it was good fun in the end.
As for your current block, the oil HAS to be burnt somewhere - valve guide wear or a chunk of ringland coming away.
Is there no comeback on the company who did the HG work?
nick
I've been through a recent rebuild on my Spec D recently to cure its leaky head gaskets and decided to do as much as a I could DIY plus keep as much control as I could on costs, plus learn how to do an engine rebuild.
The original plan was to reuse my block and to add some drop in forged pistons with a basic hone. I was already running 370 hp on the std unit and due to the reputation of the pistons, it would be an opportunity to swap them for ones that would see me IRO 400 hp rather more safely.
After a bit of research, I plumped on the Mahle Powerpaks (not the plus version). They are a low expansion drop in set at around £400. I was then going to re-use the existing block as I thought it had no apparent damage and hone it myself.
In the end I chickened out as the block condition wasn't known (would I also need to skim the top?), I hadn't done this work before and tooling costs were an added cost.
The solution was to buy a short block from Paul at Finch Motorsport, due to his reputation and being near to me.
Cost of the block (Mahle Powerpaks, ACL bearings, 11mm uprated oil pump, std rods, skimmed and crown to deck volumes measured) was £1400 total.
Selling the old block yielded £750, so a forged unit effectively cost £650!!
I also managed to snap up some used ARP 11mm bolts for £70.
Amazing value and Paul gives very obvious care to detail on your exact requirements and how he builds the block.
For your power needs the Cosworth blocks are just overkill IMHO.
The other route is to buy a std short block from Subaru at £1600 inc VAT and drop in the Powerpaks with a check on the bore tolerances beforehand.
Don't forget the additional costs on top - value of your time, gaskets & small parts, lubes/3 bond, plugs and any extras that you may want to do while the engine is out and apart such as clutch and timing belt (though not due on yours yet).
Even DIY, I think the extras ran to several £100s plus the clutch was £270.
Work was carried out by renting space and equipment at Zen Performance (big thanks Paul
who also gave advice and help at critical stages).If you handed the work over to a garage to install, then the cost on top of the block is going to be IRO £1500/£2000 to do the job properly and make it last.
In hindsight, I think that if Zen were still doing engine builds then I'd have handed the block over to them as the job took me far longer than expected and was starting to interfere with my work - but it was good fun in the end.
As for your current block, the oil HAS to be burnt somewhere - valve guide wear or a chunk of ringland coming away.
Is there no comeback on the company who did the HG work?
nick
27 May 2010, 11:36 AM
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No. It was burning oil before the headgaskets went.
I got some money back from the garage for some exhaust gaskets they charged me for and didn't replace and I had to get it rectified somewhere else ( after taking it back 3 times)
It is strange you should recommend Paul at finch motorsport as I was reading his website last night with the intention of phoning him today.
Another one who seems to have competitive prices are Williams motorsport in Flintshire Holywell. They have supposed to have built Subaru engines for 20 years.
Great news on your engine.
Does it still burn oil? Do you get piston slap from cold? How long do forged engines last compared to normal ones? Any difference?
I think I'm going to go the route you took. I know my heads are good as they have been reskimmed and had the valve seats done when I head the head gaskets done.
Surely anyone can swap an engine if I buy a short engine prebuilt. £2000 to swap an engine sounds a bit steep. Thanks a lot for your advice and opinions.
If anyone wants to pm me some quotes id appreciate it.
I'm conviniced there's nothig wrong with my engine apart from the piston/s. Starts first time every time, no loss of power, no noises, no smoke. So I should get a good price for mine if I sell it. Thanks
I got some money back from the garage for some exhaust gaskets they charged me for and didn't replace and I had to get it rectified somewhere else ( after taking it back 3 times)
It is strange you should recommend Paul at finch motorsport as I was reading his website last night with the intention of phoning him today.
Another one who seems to have competitive prices are Williams motorsport in Flintshire Holywell. They have supposed to have built Subaru engines for 20 years.
Great news on your engine.
Does it still burn oil? Do you get piston slap from cold? How long do forged engines last compared to normal ones? Any difference?
I think I'm going to go the route you took. I know my heads are good as they have been reskimmed and had the valve seats done when I head the head gaskets done.
Surely anyone can swap an engine if I buy a short engine prebuilt. £2000 to swap an engine sounds a bit steep. Thanks a lot for your advice and opinions.
If anyone wants to pm me some quotes id appreciate it.
I'm conviniced there's nothig wrong with my engine apart from the piston/s. Starts first time every time, no loss of power, no noises, no smoke. So I should get a good price for mine if I sell it. Thanks
Last edited by TheDuke; 27 May 2010 at 11:37 AM.
27 May 2010, 02:18 PM
#7
It never burnt oil at all, just pushed coolant into the expansion tank.
When I took the engine apart, all HGs showed they had gone around the bottom (exhaust) end with no.s 1 &3 the worst.
I've done around 700 miles running in to date with absolutely no oil loss. The powerpak pistons have very tight tolerances and are low expansion forged types so there is no slap.
Although forged pistons are reputed to slap and use oil, I suspect that a fair number of cases are often down to poor bore preparation and mismatched sizing of rings/pistons.
When I took the engine apart, all HGs showed they had gone around the bottom (exhaust) end with no.s 1 &3 the worst.
I've done around 700 miles running in to date with absolutely no oil loss. The powerpak pistons have very tight tolerances and are low expansion forged types so there is no slap.
Although forged pistons are reputed to slap and use oil, I suspect that a fair number of cases are often down to poor bore preparation and mismatched sizing of rings/pistons.
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27 May 2010, 02:24 PM
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I'm happy for you. Sounds like it's all sorted.
My main fear is shelling out £000's only for it to still burn oil. I wouldn't even know it was consuming oil if it wasn't for checking the dipstick.
My main fear is shelling out £000's only for it to still burn oil. I wouldn't even know it was consuming oil if it wasn't for checking the dipstick.
27 May 2010, 02:32 PM
#9
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always found clinic tell it as it is, would say it depends what you want from a garage, wanna go up there and sit in a waiting room or chat with folks and see whats going on in the workshop. Most other places, you hadnd them your keys and sit there rading magazines. Not everyones cup of tea, but you wont find a better set of egg head enthusiasts than them.
if you want a reliable 400 then forged pistons will be a very good move, standard ones arn't forged.
clinic does all the work on all my cars, i wouldn;t take them anywere else.
if you want a reliable 400 then forged pistons will be a very good move, standard ones arn't forged.
clinic does all the work on all my cars, i wouldn;t take them anywere else.
Last edited by Tidgy; 27 May 2010 at 02:35 PM.
27 May 2010, 05:26 PM
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I'm sure they are very good at what they do. I know they have an excellent rep. It's just a bit too expensive for me. £3-3500 for forged pistons only. I'd rather get a new short block or get everything done on mine for the £2-2500 from another reputable Subaru specialist.
You pays your money you takes your choice.
Oh, and Just so you know they told me to wait in the waiting room as they don't like customers in the workshop!
it was like a depression clinic In that terrapin! everyone sharing their horror stories of what's gone wrong with their car!
You pays your money you takes your choice.
Oh, and Just so you know they told me to wait in the waiting room as they don't like customers in the workshop!
it was like a depression clinic In that terrapin!
everyone sharing their horror stories of what's gone wrong with their car!
27 May 2010, 05:48 PM
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scoobyclinics reputation does preceed them for sure, i wouldnt go back there after a couple of different problems, relatively minor in comparison to yours, which i hope sincerely you get sorted as soon and as cheaply as possible, but considering they are supposed to be the uk's largest scoob only tuner, for the problems ive had, you would expect the same from a back street garage that had never seen a scoob before!!!! i also know of others that have had similar and more expensive problems with them as well and also wouldnt use them again.
pm if you would like details!!!
pm if you would like details!!!
27 May 2010, 07:10 PM
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https://www.scoobynet.com/scoobynet-...ks-to-api.html
I have alot of respect for Mark@WRX, Had you thought of this place ??
Shaun
I have alot of respect for Mark@WRX, Had you thought of this place ??
Shaun
27 May 2010, 08:19 PM
#17
The Duke...........what I was trying to say was that mark@WRX had his engine rebuilt by API. Mark@WRX is pretty savvy when it comes to having work done on his impreza
Does this make sense ?
Cheers
Shaun
Does this make sense ?
Cheers
Shaun
27 May 2010, 09:55 PM
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Got some quotes today which were quite cheap from various Subaru specialists. I'll give API a ring too. None of these places seem to offer any decent warranties mind. I know they are motorsport products that don't carry a warranty but you think they might be able to back up their work for a year at least!
27 May 2010, 10:22 PM
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Got some quotes today which were quite cheap from various Subaru specialists. I'll give API a ring too. None of these places seem to offer any decent warranties mind. I know they are motorsport products that don't carry a warranty but you think they might be able to back up their work for a year at least!
whats quite cheap mate?
27 May 2010, 11:30 PM
#22
Hi Mark
API sorted my jap 6 speed gearbox and a few other things
...... The only real grief was that having driven a few STi's I had never actually put one in reverse (why reverse on the A69) LOL.
All my other Fords / Toyota's never had a reverse involving lifting the collar and pulling it backwards ........ total sad git me had to walk back to API and ask how I could get it into reverse to leave ..... !!
I'm looking at sensible options for prolonging the life of my bugeye engine and for down to earth advice it's either API or Harvey, not saying one is better than the other but I need to fit any work around the summer holiday plans
Cheers
Shaun
API sorted my jap 6 speed gearbox and a few other things
...... The only real grief was that having driven a few STi's I had never actually put one in reverse (why reverse on the A69) LOL.
All my other Fords / Toyota's never had a reverse involving lifting the collar and pulling it backwards ........ total sad git me had to walk back to API and ask how I could get it into reverse to leave ..... !!
I'm looking at sensible options for prolonging the life of my bugeye engine and for down to earth advice it's either API or Harvey, not saying one is better than the other but I need to fit any work around the summer holiday plans
Cheers
Shaun
27 May 2010, 11:51 PM
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i would recomend api to as they have just rebuilt my bugeye engine and i'm picking it up on tuesday david the owner has been a great guy by keeping me up to date with how the car is coming along. just give him a call he is some times hard to get hold of if you can't get through to him ask for simon.
