New Age Impreza handling leagues ahead of the old model (NOT)!
06 February 2002, 02:57 PM
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A worrying trait is starting to spread across this BBS. Let me explain.
Back in the 80's when the original Cosworth Sierra was launched everyone who drove one (press included) lauded it as the performance car of the decade and said it was not far off perfect for the money.
When the next version arrived (the RS500 I think - sorry to the RS boys if I've got it wrong) everyone who drove it lauded it with praise and called it performance car of the decade, but more importantly said that it addressed all the handling shortcomings of the previous model (shortcomings that weren't there when they'd originally tested the previous model!!).
And so it went on with each subsequent release of the Cosworth.
Now this appears to be happening with the Impreza. The new age Impreza is here and all over this BBS you see comments like 'The handling of the new car is leagues ahead of the old model' or 'gone is the awful uncertainty and body roll of the old Impreza' etc. etc.
If the old model was so bad how come so many of us bought one and how come no one spotted these problems originally. I think you'll find it's because they're not there. I'm not saying the new car doesn't handle better as it may do, but the difference can not be measured in 'leagues' especially when you consider that an awful lot of people on here don't ever approach the handling limits of any car they own.
Your thoughts please!
Regards,
tiggers.
Back in the 80's when the original Cosworth Sierra was launched everyone who drove one (press included) lauded it as the performance car of the decade and said it was not far off perfect for the money.
When the next version arrived (the RS500 I think - sorry to the RS boys if I've got it wrong) everyone who drove it lauded it with praise and called it performance car of the decade, but more importantly said that it addressed all the handling shortcomings of the previous model (shortcomings that weren't there when they'd originally tested the previous model!!).
And so it went on with each subsequent release of the Cosworth.
Now this appears to be happening with the Impreza. The new age Impreza is here and all over this BBS you see comments like 'The handling of the new car is leagues ahead of the old model' or 'gone is the awful uncertainty and body roll of the old Impreza' etc. etc.
If the old model was so bad how come so many of us bought one and how come no one spotted these problems originally. I think you'll find it's because they're not there. I'm not saying the new car doesn't handle better as it may do, but the difference can not be measured in 'leagues' especially when you consider that an awful lot of people on here don't ever approach the handling limits of any car they own.
Your thoughts please!
Regards,
tiggers.
06 February 2002, 03:12 PM
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Unless you are a professional racing/rally driver on a track handling is a subjective term. Even then some drivers prefer an over-steery car to an under-steery one.
The new car is easier to drive faster, mainly (IMHO) because of the additional chassis stiffness. Whether that equates to 'better handling' is down to each one of us.
Horses for courses.
The new car is easier to drive faster, mainly (IMHO) because of the additional chassis stiffness. Whether that equates to 'better handling' is down to each one of us.
Horses for courses.
06 February 2002, 03:17 PM
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I think it's a case of emperors new clothes.
Remember when the new age impreza first came out everyone was saying how ugly, heavy and slow it was? Now suddenly the old model is crap and the new model is much better.
When I sold my Impreza a few weeks ago the dealer was trying to tell me how the new age impreza was a hundred times better and that the chassis was 250% more rigid. Oh really I replied, I haven't really noticed any chassis flex on the drive to work.
Lets be honest how often are you driving you car on the ragged edge on the road? And if you are you're a total pr!ck, what are you going to do when something goes wrong?. It's not just cars though the same applies to bikes. The R1 used to be the best but now the GSXR 1000 is out the R1 is obviously crap. It doesn't matter that unless you are Colin Edwards you are not even going to use 60% of the bikes ability people still slag off anything that isn't in their eyes the latest thing.
Lets be honest with ourselves we don't really need a car that handles slightly better as we are never going to use it but deep down we want to own the latest bestest thing.
Same goes for Optimax petrol, First of all it was the best thing ever, people claiming how much faster the car felt. Then a few people started saying how it made their car det and suddenly there was a thread how crap it was. Now by the looks of things it is the dogs twitcher again and makes the car smoother and more responsive. Now I used to own a UK car and I am not afraid to admit that I didn't really notice any difference. I still used Optimax because I thought it was the best petrol even though I noticed no difference. It makes me laugh when somebody posts they can tell the difference when they use supermarket petrol and how the car runs really badly. Well I do a lot of work for Shell and I can tell you that it is all the same stuff. Do you really believe that safeway, tescos, sainsburys etc all have their own refineries? No of course not that buy it off the big boys such as Esso and Shell.
Remember when the new age impreza first came out everyone was saying how ugly, heavy and slow it was? Now suddenly the old model is crap and the new model is much better.
When I sold my Impreza a few weeks ago the dealer was trying to tell me how the new age impreza was a hundred times better and that the chassis was 250% more rigid. Oh really I replied, I haven't really noticed any chassis flex on the drive to work.
Lets be honest how often are you driving you car on the ragged edge on the road? And if you are you're a total pr!ck, what are you going to do when something goes wrong?. It's not just cars though the same applies to bikes. The R1 used to be the best but now the GSXR 1000 is out the R1 is obviously crap. It doesn't matter that unless you are Colin Edwards you are not even going to use 60% of the bikes ability people still slag off anything that isn't in their eyes the latest thing.
Lets be honest with ourselves we don't really need a car that handles slightly better as we are never going to use it but deep down we want to own the latest bestest thing.
Same goes for Optimax petrol, First of all it was the best thing ever, people claiming how much faster the car felt. Then a few people started saying how it made their car det and suddenly there was a thread how crap it was. Now by the looks of things it is the dogs twitcher again and makes the car smoother and more responsive. Now I used to own a UK car and I am not afraid to admit that I didn't really notice any difference. I still used Optimax because I thought it was the best petrol even though I noticed no difference. It makes me laugh when somebody posts they can tell the difference when they use supermarket petrol and how the car runs really badly. Well I do a lot of work for Shell and I can tell you that it is all the same stuff. Do you really believe that safeway, tescos, sainsburys etc all have their own refineries? No of course not that buy it off the big boys such as Esso and Shell.
06 February 2002, 03:21 PM
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The fact is, most of us are not good enough drivers to notice any difference.
The better drivers seem to comment that the new one handles better.
The better drivers seem to comment that the new one handles better.
06 February 2002, 03:33 PM
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Even for the real good drivers, it sometimes is horses for courses etc ... SDB really thinks the new car is better handling, other rally drivers I know are either indifferent or think the new car is more understeered than the old one.
Depends on your driving style, experience, etc...
Horst Von Saurma litterally said: "understeer is not on the menu with this car" when he tested the MY00 around the Ring. That wouldn't have gone down well on this BBS
Personally, I think I need another 20 years to really get to know my MY99's handling (maybe because I change to many bits all the time
)
Depends on your driving style, experience, etc...
Horst Von Saurma litterally said: "understeer is not on the menu with this car" when he tested the MY00 around the Ring. That wouldn't have gone down well on this BBS
Personally, I think I need another 20 years to really get to know my MY99's handling (maybe because I change to many bits all the time
)
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06 February 2002, 04:53 PM
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In response to the first post, you cannot see how inferior something is until something better comes along! True, the difference to minions like us is negligible, but that doesn't mean to say the new car is not significantly better dynamically.
I bought a new PC just before Xmas, very high spec. I'm very happy with it. However, 3 yrs from now I won't be able to give it away because people will appreciate how good having a 200ghz pc with a terrabyte of the latest type of RAM and a GeForce 55 graphics card is! Doesn't mean mine is crap, but when newer better technology comes out, you start to "see" my PCs shortcomings.
It's rather hypocritical of some people on this BBS to constantly defend their older models in this way when they are quite happy to use the same argument to put down the RS boys and their older cars. I'm sorry to say it, but if things never really improved then we would still be driving around in Model Ts, because there would no point in moving to newer models! The WRX is an evolution, not a revolution, but it is undoubtedly a move in a better direction.
Geezr
I bought a new PC just before Xmas, very high spec. I'm very happy with it. However, 3 yrs from now I won't be able to give it away because people will appreciate how good having a 200ghz pc with a terrabyte of the latest type of RAM and a GeForce 55 graphics card is! Doesn't mean mine is crap, but when newer better technology comes out, you start to "see" my PCs shortcomings.
It's rather hypocritical of some people on this BBS to constantly defend their older models in this way when they are quite happy to use the same argument to put down the RS boys and their older cars. I'm sorry to say it, but if things never really improved then we would still be driving around in Model Ts, because there would no point in moving to newer models! The WRX is an evolution, not a revolution, but it is undoubtedly a move in a better direction.
Geezr
06 February 2002, 05:01 PM
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HANDLING - What is it eh? Is it the ability to pull the highest G on a circle? Is it the ability to do the fastest slalom? Is it the ability to turn whilst braking hard, or accelerating hard? Is it the ability to find the limits of the car easily and safely? What are your thoughts? In my mind handling is all about the ability to change direction abruptly without under/oversteering into trouble and recover dead quick, and the ability to position the car perfectly on the road. What would be the ultimate handling test? I liked the one on driven last week where they avoided the boxes falling out the back of a lorry!
06 February 2002, 05:12 PM
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Geezer, fair point, but fortunately cars have a bit of a longer development curve/history than PC's.
And even then: it's just as easy to spout crap on a 200 Ghz PC than on a 1.5 one... it's a tool.
I have always been very un-vocal about the MY01. It may have a better chassis. But frankly, the "oooh, 250 % stiffer" thing is slowly starting to ennoy me. It's what I would say to my wife, not on a BBS.
The difference is very small, live with it. Just believing that every car manufactured in the 00ties is better than any previous car is not exactly gonna do you a favor.
Dave TS: are you saying you have the driving skills to really feel which car is better ?
Theo [fighting mode on]
And even then: it's just as easy to spout crap on a 200 Ghz PC than on a 1.5 one... it's a tool.
I have always been very un-vocal about the MY01. It may have a better chassis. But frankly, the "oooh, 250 % stiffer" thing is slowly starting to ennoy me. It's what I would say to my wife, not on a BBS.
The difference is very small, live with it. Just believing that every car manufactured in the 00ties is better than any previous car is not exactly gonna do you a favor.
Dave TS: are you saying you have the driving skills to really feel which car is better ?
Theo [fighting mode on]
06 February 2002, 05:20 PM
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Geezer,
If your comment about hypocrisy was aimed at me then I don't think you've read my original post properly. I am quite happy to concede that the new car is better in many departments including handling (although I'll fight you all the way on looks!).
I'm just not prepared to concede that it is massively better and all of a sudden because a new version has arrived the old model suddenly develops a host of faults that no one spotted before. That I'm afraid is just plain stupidity.
At the end of the day I'm not sure most people could exploit the difference between the two cars in the handling department as they just don't have the skill. I think a lot of people on here and in the world in general have far too high an opinion of their own driving abilities and to talk of handling being in a different league makes them sound a little silly in my opinion.
Let me put this to you. I think we'd all agree that a Scooby (new or old) handles better than a standard Astra/Focus etc. So if you were in your Scooby and Michael Schumacher was in the Astra/Focus who would be quickest round a race track. If you seriously think you'd stand a chance (despite the power difference) then let me tell you - you're sadly deluded. The driver matters far more than the car so to hear some people talk of handling the way they do makes me laugh.
Regards,
tiggers.
If your comment about hypocrisy was aimed at me then I don't think you've read my original post properly. I am quite happy to concede that the new car is better in many departments including handling (although I'll fight you all the way on looks!).
I'm just not prepared to concede that it is massively better and all of a sudden because a new version has arrived the old model suddenly develops a host of faults that no one spotted before. That I'm afraid is just plain stupidity.
At the end of the day I'm not sure most people could exploit the difference between the two cars in the handling department as they just don't have the skill. I think a lot of people on here and in the world in general have far too high an opinion of their own driving abilities and to talk of handling being in a different league makes them sound a little silly in my opinion.
Let me put this to you. I think we'd all agree that a Scooby (new or old) handles better than a standard Astra/Focus etc. So if you were in your Scooby and Michael Schumacher was in the Astra/Focus who would be quickest round a race track. If you seriously think you'd stand a chance (despite the power difference) then let me tell you - you're sadly deluded. The driver matters far more than the car so to hear some people talk of handling the way they do makes me laugh.
Regards,
tiggers.
06 February 2002, 05:21 PM
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Theo - just to help you on your way with the fight.. heres my 2peneth..
I've gone from a UK Turbo to P1 to WRX '01.. and it seems easier to drive the '01 faster round the bends than either of the previous... whether this equates to vastly improved handling I don't know, but it would certainly feel that way.. (i'm very touchy feely dontcha know ).
Alex
I've gone from a UK Turbo to P1 to WRX '01.. and it seems easier to drive the '01 faster round the bends than either of the previous... whether this equates to vastly improved handling I don't know, but it would certainly feel that way.. (i'm very touchy feely dontcha know
).Alex
06 February 2002, 05:32 PM
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When I've been behind an MY01 on track (not for very long mind you) and both cars fitted with big brakes they look much more stable under braking.
) and both cars fitted with big brakes they look much more stable under braking.
06 February 2002, 05:42 PM
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Alex ... well that may be a very good point as well !
I'm a touchy/feely kind of guy myself
But ...
Everytime I sit next to someone in my own car that *can* drive, I'm absolutely gobsmacked just how much that car can do. Put me behind the wheel again, and yeah, it's slow
I remember, from a post from John Felstead, that "250 % stiffer" may mean "well, it flexes 0.1 mm less in extreme conditions"...
Not in 50 years, I would be able to tell which car was "better". Still, it amazed me how many people apparently *can* tell.
I really must be a crap driver.
Throw in Leda/DMS/bumpsteer/etc... or whatever ... such a complicated issue.
Why the hell would you fit Leda to an already incredibly fantastic stiff etc car ???? Does not compute !
Can you make the MY00 better ? Yes, of course. Can you make the MY01 better ? Yes, of course. Can you make 'm very close re: handling ? Yes of course.
Can you think away 150 kg's more ? Nope, nope@noway.com.
Never.
If anything, the handling difference will be down to the wheelbase, not the marketing **** about the 250 %. Marketing BS, sorry.
Theo
I'm a touchy/feely kind of guy myself
But ...
Everytime I sit next to someone in my own car that *can* drive, I'm absolutely gobsmacked just how much that car can do. Put me behind the wheel again, and yeah, it's slow
I remember, from a post from John Felstead, that "250 % stiffer" may mean "well, it flexes 0.1 mm less in extreme conditions"...
Not in 50 years, I would be able to tell which car was "better". Still, it amazed me how many people apparently *can* tell.
I really must be a crap driver.
Throw in Leda/DMS/bumpsteer/etc... or whatever ... such a complicated issue.
Why the hell would you fit Leda to an already incredibly fantastic stiff etc car ???? Does not compute !
Can you make the MY00 better ? Yes, of course. Can you make the MY01 better ? Yes, of course. Can you make 'm very close re: handling ? Yes of course.
Can you think away 150 kg's more ? Nope, nope@noway.com.
Never.
If anything, the handling difference will be down to the wheelbase, not the marketing **** about the 250 %. Marketing BS, sorry.
Theo
06 February 2002, 05:48 PM
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I have to ask myself if the new car is really going to change my life enough to part with the cost to change it would require.
I just think of all the other toys I could buy with £6k+ and still have a modded MY00 to play with that only costs me £1k a year + petrol & road tax.....hmmmmmmm
I really love everything about the new STi7 and I'm having a personal battle over whether or not I really need one. My heart says yes, my head says no.
I drove a standard new WRX and my impression (as someone who only has car for 'fast road' use my comment is that the newer car enables you to drive faster with less concetration. I'd describe the driving experience as somewhat diluted compared to the old model. I think I'd be more comfortable on a long journey & around town but have a smaller smile on my face after a trip round the lanes and less sweat on my brow!!
I just think of all the other toys I could buy with £6k+ and still have a modded MY00 to play with that only costs me £1k a year + petrol & road tax.....hmmmmmmm
I really love everything about the new STi7 and I'm having a personal battle over whether or not I really need one. My heart says yes, my head says no.
I drove a standard new WRX and my impression (as someone who only has car for 'fast road' use my comment is that the newer car enables you to drive faster with less concetration. I'd describe the driving experience as somewhat diluted compared to the old model. I think I'd be more comfortable on a long journey & around town but have a smaller smile on my face after a trip round the lanes and less sweat on my brow!!
06 February 2002, 05:54 PM
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My tuppence worth......
I've got an MY00 with Bump Steer, Anti-Lift and Eibachs (Geom of course). When I test drove the car, I though it was quite something (a little slow ( well it is if you've got a bike )) but great none the less. I then bought one and got to "learn" the car and started to be a little disapointed with some of the aspects of it's handling.... e.g.
Vaugeness on high speed bends
A little too much body roll for my liking
A little lack of feel from the front end
Too much understeer, particularly in the wet
I then drove Scott's 98WRX which had Powerflex bushes, Eibachs, Bump Steer, Anti-Lift and SO2's. I couldn't believe how different (better ( IMHO )) it was over my car - hence why I've since upgraded mine. I know *some* of my understeer, vaugeness and lack of feel is down to the PZeros (we live and learn) but the feel of the car now in every type of situation (involving a change or direction) is sooooooooooo much better. You don't have to take the car to it's limits to appreciate the improvements, they are there on low speed bends and such like......
When the MY01 came out, I couldn't believe how Fugley it was and vowed NEVER to own one on looks alone. However, since then, Dave T-S and others have shown what good looking cars they can be made into and I have since driven various MY01's from standard to fairly modified, both suspension and power wise. I have to say (and I've got no reason to promote the new car), the "poise", lack of body roll, lack of understeer and general "handling" ( IMHO ) is better than the MY00 as standard. I would go as far as to say, in standard trim, the MY01 is nearly as good as mine (but not quite 
). But with some (cheapish) mods like Eibachs/Prodrive Eibachs, Anti-Lift, Geometry, I think it will be better. The LEDA on Dave's car is fantastic both on the road and on the track.
Perhaps some of you will say I can't drive and don't know what I'm talking about, perhaps some will say you have to be a racing driver to tell the difference, or you have to take the car to it's limits to find the difference. IMHO, I think I can (of course ), I know I'm not, I know I don't need too. I think the new car is better all round, from a driving it point of view, and I don't see why that causes anybody a problem???? 
I like my car, am keeping it and will continue to make it better, but that doesn't mean I'm not tempted by an STi 7 as a new "starting point" ( )
Like I said, IMHO!!!!
Matt
I've got an MY00 with Bump Steer, Anti-Lift and Eibachs (Geom of course). When I test drove the car, I though it was quite something (a little slow ( well it is if you've got a bike
)) but great none the less. I then bought one and got to "learn" the car and started to be a little disapointed with some of the aspects of it's handling.... e.g.Vaugeness on high speed bends
A little too much body roll for my liking
A little lack of feel from the front end
Too much understeer, particularly in the wet
I then drove Scott's 98WRX which had Powerflex bushes, Eibachs, Bump Steer, Anti-Lift and SO2's. I couldn't believe how different (better ( IMHO
)) it was over my car - hence why I've since upgraded mine. I know *some* of my understeer, vaugeness and lack of feel is down to the PZeros (we live and learn) but the feel of the car now in every type of situation (involving a change or direction) is sooooooooooo much better. You don't have to take the car to it's limits to appreciate the improvements, they are there on low speed bends and such like......When the MY01 came out, I couldn't believe how Fugley it was and vowed NEVER to own one on looks alone. However, since then, Dave T-S and others have shown what good looking cars they can be made into and I have since driven various MY01's from standard to fairly modified, both suspension and power wise. I have to say (and I've got no reason to promote the new car), the "poise", lack of body roll, lack of understeer and general "handling" ( IMHO
) is better than the MY00 as standard. I would go as far as to say, in standard trim, the MY01 is nearly as good as mine (but not quite ). But with some (cheapish) mods like Eibachs/Prodrive Eibachs, Anti-Lift, Geometry, I think it will be better. The LEDA on Dave's car is fantastic both on the road and on the track.Perhaps some of you will say I can't drive and don't know what I'm talking about, perhaps some will say you have to be a racing driver to tell the difference, or you have to take the car to it's limits to find the difference. IMHO, I think I can (of course
), I know I'm not, I know I don't need too. I think the new car is better all round, from a driving it point of view, and I don't see why that causes anybody a problem???? I like my car, am keeping it and will continue to make it better, but that doesn't mean I'm not tempted by an STi 7 as a new "starting point" (
)Like I said, IMHO!!!!
Matt
06 February 2002, 05:59 PM
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Very good point again Alex re: being thrown into passenger seat. I'm 6'7", so I kinda know that feeling.
When I fitted stiffer rollbars, I *thought* my car handled a lot better. SDB may explain why it actually felt better, but has *less* cornering ability
Oh, and don't worry, I'm pretty straight for a thouchy/feely guy
Theo
When I fitted stiffer rollbars, I *thought* my car handled a lot better. SDB may explain why it actually felt better, but has *less* cornering ability
Oh, and don't worry, I'm pretty straight for a thouchy/feely guy
Theo
06 February 2002, 06:09 PM
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mutant_matt,
That is an extremely well written and intelligent set of comments. That is just so much better than 'the handling is in a different league'.
My aplogies as my comments above were not meant to be taken to mean that you have to be a racing driver to feel the difference, but just that there are a lot of people who make inane comments when they have no real idea of what they are talking about. I'm sure there are quite a few people on this board who are better drivers than the average Joe, but I'm also sure that the people who come out with the 'leagues of difference' statements are probably guilty of thinking they are a lot better drivers than they actually are.
Regards,
tiggers.
That is an extremely well written and intelligent set of comments. That is just so much better than 'the handling is in a different league'.
My aplogies as my comments above were not meant to be taken to mean that you have to be a racing driver to feel the difference, but just that there are a lot of people who make inane comments when they have no real idea of what they are talking about. I'm sure there are quite a few people on this board who are better drivers than the average Joe, but I'm also sure that the people who come out with the 'leagues of difference' statements are probably guilty of thinking they are a lot better drivers than they actually are.
Regards,
tiggers.
06 February 2002, 07:24 PM
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Here is my view (even though i wear bottom of the bottle glasses!).
I used to own a Clio Williams heavily modified (180 Hp brakes and a very good suspension settings, modified by the same mechanic that prepared me my clio Gr.N (basically i lived inside a Clio!).
All this to say that it was the best handling car you could possible imagine (forget about catheram 7 and friends).
When I bought the WRX my first sensation has been: "It's a comfortable fast car but lacks immediacy; everything starting from steering, brakes,engine response (ok , it's a turbo) seems retarded."
Then I wanted to find it's pro's in its original form. From the prvious car I realized it was much faster of fast bends, more composed but you had to make it weight on one side first. Infact along S's made at medium high speeds it suffered from load transfer that had to be corrected (loss of time).
Then I tried it on twisty Italian mountain roads, and it disappointed me. There was some understeer mostly on hairpins but that didn't preoccupied me too much 'cause I had realized before that with AWD was better approaching the corner little bit slower to exploit the huge amount of grip and coming out of the corner much faster. The point is that the car was lacking power! So basically you had to turn in slow and come out slow!!
I therefore fitted a PPP. Nice, i like it. Mostly because it improves accelerator response. Now i'm having Leda fitted. And I will tell you soon my opinion on them.
To move to a more coherent argument with this thread I wanted to say that my father (Ex rally driver, did Montecarlo Rally in 1969 with a semi-official Fulvia HF) has a wagon '00 in its original form.
We mounted on both the same winter tires (same dimension). Then we went through the best Italian Autostrada "Serravalle", that it's more a race track then else ( www.serravalleracing.com , you can find some pictures of the road, and myself on the Clio under AMICI link). It was raining and the Autostrada was empty. my father was in front I was behind. My car was pretty much faster. I could see from behind his car skitting on high speed corners (100+ Mph) whereas my car had still some margins. I find it a good proof of Wrx superiority.
Regarding the wagon handling ( of course I had different occasions for driving it): It's firmier, more harsh but the suspensions cope less with imperfections of the road. There is less body roll, this is why at the limit it's more difficult to control.
There isn't a definitive result, I believe. But if I have to make an overall decision over the two I would say the old is more radical, the WRX is a more sophisticated and complete car.
Sorry for the long POST
Cheers Caronte
I used to own a Clio Williams heavily modified (180 Hp brakes and a very good suspension settings, modified by the same mechanic that prepared me my clio Gr.N (basically i lived inside a Clio!).
All this to say that it was the best handling car you could possible imagine (forget about catheram 7 and friends).
When I bought the WRX my first sensation has been: "It's a comfortable fast car but lacks immediacy; everything starting from steering, brakes,engine response (ok , it's a turbo) seems retarded."
Then I wanted to find it's pro's in its original form. From the prvious car I realized it was much faster of fast bends, more composed but you had to make it weight on one side first. Infact along S's made at medium high speeds it suffered from load transfer that had to be corrected (loss of time).
Then I tried it on twisty Italian mountain roads, and it disappointed me. There was some understeer mostly on hairpins but that didn't preoccupied me too much 'cause I had realized before that with AWD was better approaching the corner little bit slower to exploit the huge amount of grip and coming out of the corner much faster. The point is that the car was lacking power! So basically you had to turn in slow and come out slow!!
I therefore fitted a PPP. Nice, i like it. Mostly because it improves accelerator response. Now i'm having Leda fitted. And I will tell you soon my opinion on them.
To move to a more coherent argument with this thread I wanted to say that my father (Ex rally driver, did Montecarlo Rally in 1969 with a semi-official Fulvia HF) has a wagon '00 in its original form.
We mounted on both the same winter tires (same dimension). Then we went through the best Italian Autostrada "Serravalle", that it's more a race track then else ( www.serravalleracing.com , you can find some pictures of the road, and myself on the Clio under AMICI link). It was raining and the Autostrada was empty. my father was in front I was behind. My car was pretty much faster. I could see from behind his car skitting on high speed corners (100+ Mph) whereas my car had still some margins. I find it a good proof of Wrx superiority.
Regarding the wagon handling ( of course I had different occasions for driving it): It's firmier, more harsh but the suspensions cope less with imperfections of the road. There is less body roll, this is why at the limit it's more difficult to control.
There isn't a definitive result, I believe. But if I have to make an overall decision over the two I would say the old is more radical, the WRX is a more sophisticated and complete car.
Sorry for the long POST
Cheers Caronte
06 February 2002, 08:17 PM
#21
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Tiggers,
Not a prob m8 - I didn't take anything personally, I just wanted to point out that I didn't agree with the "you have a be a racing driver" type argument or the "you're dangerous if you get close to the limits on the road" argument.
It's nice to have a decent debate again on the BBS that isn't in Drivetrain......
Matt
Not a prob m8 - I didn't take anything personally, I just wanted to point out that I didn't agree with the "you have a be a racing driver" type argument or the "you're dangerous if you get close to the limits on the road" argument.
It's nice to have a decent debate again on the BBS that isn't in Drivetrain......
Matt
06 February 2002, 09:46 PM
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Current car;
Fiesta (don't laugh) Zetec S. Handles supremely well.
Previous car;
MY99 Impreza. Didn't 'handle' any better.
Yes, it got from A to B a lot quicker, bu it didn't handle any better.
This is the best way I can explain it from the comfort of my asbestos portacabin.
blubs
Fiesta (don't laugh) Zetec S. Handles supremely well.
Previous car;
MY99 Impreza. Didn't 'handle' any better.
Yes, it got from A to B a lot quicker, bu it didn't handle any better.
This is the best way I can explain it from the comfort of my asbestos portacabin.
blubs
06 February 2002, 11:14 PM
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blubs, have you got any spare room in there?
IMVVVVHO my old VTR handled better than the Scoob, having the MY00 on 17" with revised geometry has made the car almost as adjustable, however, it still lacks the feedback of the Saxo. The car can now carry more speed through corners, but as has been mentioned grip and handling is not the same, although grip is a part of my definition of handling, it is a small part.
IMVVVVHO my old VTR handled better than the Scoob, having the MY00 on 17" with revised geometry has made the car almost as adjustable, however, it still lacks the feedback of the Saxo. The car can now carry more speed through corners, but as has been mentioned grip and handling is not the same, although grip is a part of my definition of handling, it is a small part.
07 February 2002, 08:29 AM
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Like this thread!
Following on from my post on the first page I would like to justify what I said re the RB5 and UK300. I'm a pretty high mileage driver (40K+ a year) and I have never been on a track or had any special driver training. I guess I could class myself as an "average" driver, whatever that means.
I do however often drive the two cars back to back, often for long journeys. Just to clarify the RB5 is a WR and the UK300 is PPP'd.
Steering. RB5 has more feedback and is "firmer" (can't describe it better), has less body roll (although neither have much) and IMO can be driven (and is) through the same corners quicker, at least with a more composed feel. My girlfriend noticed the difference in steering when we first swapped (she uses the RB5 mostly). The UK300 is a more comfortable drive and much better for driving the long trips. Power wise the RB5 is up on the UK so it's quicker, it is noticeable, but not by a huge amount (it in fact feels "frantic" in 1st and 2nd compared to the 300).
Which is better? Neither, both great cars, both great fun, both do things differently, both for enjoying!
I think I would like to get them both on a track day at some point, with some decent tuition, then I may learn a lot more about the differences.
All opinions above from my own experience....
Following on from my post on the first page I would like to justify what I said re the RB5 and UK300. I'm a pretty high mileage driver (40K+ a year) and I have never been on a track or had any special driver training. I guess I could class myself as an "average" driver, whatever that means.
I do however often drive the two cars back to back, often for long journeys. Just to clarify the RB5 is a WR and the UK300 is PPP'd.
Steering. RB5 has more feedback and is "firmer" (can't describe it better), has less body roll (although neither have much) and IMO can be driven (and is) through the same corners quicker, at least with a more composed feel. My girlfriend noticed the difference in steering when we first swapped (she uses the RB5 mostly). The UK300 is a more comfortable drive and much better for driving the long trips. Power wise the RB5 is up on the UK so it's quicker, it is noticeable, but not by a huge amount (it in fact feels "frantic" in 1st and 2nd compared to the 300).
Which is better? Neither, both great cars, both great fun, both do things differently, both for enjoying!
I think I would like to get them both on a track day at some point, with some decent tuition, then I may learn a lot more about the differences.
All opinions above from my own experience....
07 February 2002, 09:12 AM
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Damn, was looking for a good comeback Dave, but couldn't find any
I'm pretty sure there is a difference (I did feel that after driving 100 meters), but I then had to compare my MY99 with DMS/bumpsteer/ALK/swaybars/endlinks/17"/SO2's etc etc. That of course meant that I completely "forgot" how the MY99 drove out of the box. I mean to say it wasn't better than my car at that time.
I'm sure though the MY01 is probably a better starting package for suspension mods because of the extended wheelbase and maybe/probably a slightly stiffer chassis. But I agree with tiggers, it's not miles ahead.
That said, I really would like a drive in the STi7. I'm not in a bying mood, but I do really wonder how that car feels.
blubs & Robertio, I don't think that's strange at all. These "little" nimble cars are getting better all the time, VTS is surely built with some GrpN rallying in mind etc... very direct feedback etc... steady state cornering will be on the same level as an Impreza, it's just the added traction (if you know how to use it) can give you an advantage out of corners/in the wet.
But wait, too much agreement in this thread... someone say something controversion, quick !
I'm pretty sure there is a difference (I did feel that after driving 100 meters), but I then had to compare my MY99 with DMS/bumpsteer/ALK/swaybars/endlinks/17"/SO2's etc etc. That of course meant that I completely "forgot" how the MY99 drove out of the box. I mean to say it wasn't better than my car at that time.
I'm sure though the MY01 is probably a better starting package for suspension mods because of the extended wheelbase and maybe/probably a slightly stiffer chassis. But I agree with tiggers, it's not miles ahead.
That said, I really would like a drive in the STi7. I'm not in a bying mood, but I do really wonder how that car feels.
blubs & Robertio, I don't think that's strange at all. These "little" nimble cars are getting better all the time, VTS is surely built with some GrpN rallying in mind etc... very direct feedback etc... steady state cornering will be on the same level as an Impreza, it's just the added traction (if you know how to use it) can give you an advantage out of corners/in the wet.
But wait, too much agreement in this thread... someone say something controversion, quick !
07 February 2002, 09:18 AM
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One other factors guys which I forgot to mention which I think is important.....Subaru's as they come out of the factory have geometry tollerances which are quite frankly, enormous!!!! If the Scoob(s) you are comparing are completely standard suspension wise (i.e. not had any changes OR Geometry reset) then a "good" one will feel better/handle nicer than a "bad" one. Really to be able to comment, you have to drive the different models (MY00 vs MY01 say) that have both had the Geom done, to be working from a level playing field. So, (not picking on you Seamus) in Seamus' example, suppose that the RB5 was a "good" example (i.e. Geom is close to being correct) and the UK300 is a "bad" example (Geom way out but still inside factory tollerances ( 
)), the RB5 would be better even though it's technically (IMHO ), inferior in the handling department. So, perhaps, when staing your opinions, it's worth quantifying what it is based upon?
And before some clever dick pipes up, yes, the comparisons I have made are from such cars
Matt
)), the RB5 would be better even though it's technically (IMHO ), inferior in the handling department. So, perhaps, when staing your opinions, it's worth quantifying what it is based upon?And before some clever dick pipes up, yes, the comparisons I have made are from such cars
Matt
07 February 2002, 09:27 AM
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Dave TS could you lend me a fiver!
i own a MY00, when i bought the car new in 2000 it felt great, as i got used to it and covered a few miles i started to feel it understeered, to wallowy etc. now with 17's on eibachs, geometry, it feels more composed, great!
i have driven the new wrx and imho the steering just isnt my tipple, to light for me anyway. when i test drove it i mentioned to the salesman about this and he replied "its so when your shopping its easier to park!" roflmao at this
The only way i can sum them up for me is:
with the MY00 with my set up it lets you know if you get it wrong, go through a series of corners and get it right it feels so rewarding, i like the concentration the more excitement knowing its not as easy to drive a the MY01 if you know what i mean
When i drove the MY01 i can relate to the cornering is less effort somehow, it did feel more composed but i wasnt overjoyed by the overassisted steering.
my car does 85% of its 28000 miles on A/B roads and personally just enjoy the more commitment i have to put in.
cheers Lee
i own a MY00, when i bought the car new in 2000 it felt great, as i got used to it and covered a few miles i started to feel it understeered, to wallowy etc. now with 17's on eibachs, geometry, it feels more composed, great!
i have driven the new wrx and imho the steering just isnt my tipple, to light for me anyway. when i test drove it i mentioned to the salesman about this and he replied "its so when your shopping its easier to park!" roflmao at this
The only way i can sum them up for me is:
with the MY00 with my set up it lets you know if you get it wrong, go through a series of corners and get it right it feels so rewarding, i like the concentration the more excitement knowing its not as easy to drive a the MY01 if you know what i mean
When i drove the MY01 i can relate to the cornering is less effort somehow, it did feel more composed but i wasnt overjoyed by the overassisted steering.
my car does 85% of its 28000 miles on A/B roads and personally just enjoy the more commitment i have to put in.
cheers Lee
07 February 2002, 09:31 AM
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At the end of the day they are completely different cars, a set up preference may favour one driver over another etc. My experience is purely based on getting out of one and into the other, thats about it. What I don't know about mechanics and car geometery etc would fill a warehouse! I plan to have suspension done on the UK300 shortly we'll see what a difference that makes.
It would be good to hear about a comparison between two completely standard "out of the box" cars.
It would be good to hear about a comparison between two completely standard "out of the box" cars.
07 February 2002, 09:46 AM
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tiggers:
I may be slightly of target here but :
Subaru may have also done some very clever marketing, in not making the MY01 "'leagues" better they still sell loads because of the client base and fanatical fan base. But then they do a double whamy and dont bring out a special edition that peolple cant afford - instead they bring out the STi, which is "'leagues" ahead in standard forms. They have addressed the known problem that MY01 needed to be much better than MY00.
What i'm trying to say is you are right at getting peed off with inane comments, everyones comments in this thread are completely honest and very interesting - lets not dwell - do as Subaru want and sell all the MY00 7 MY01's buy buy buy STi 7.
Time to run
Bye
I may be slightly of target here but :
Subaru may have also done some very clever marketing, in not making the MY01 "'leagues" better they still sell loads because of the client base and fanatical fan base. But then they do a double whamy and dont bring out a special edition that peolple cant afford - instead they bring out the STi, which is "'leagues" ahead in standard forms. They have addressed the known problem that MY01 needed to be much better than MY00.
What i'm trying to say is you are right at getting peed off with inane comments, everyones comments in this thread are completely honest and very interesting - lets not dwell - do as Subaru want and sell all the MY00 7 MY01's buy buy buy STi 7.
Time to run
Bye