Northern Nick

iTrader: (1)

Just noticed today after filling the car up, there was some jelly type stuff stuck the the spout of my 5ltr plastic container I use to put the stuff in at the filling station. At first I didn't know what it was so I clean it off and drove home. I inspected it further when I got back and it was like glue, very sticky and slimey. I looked in the container and it is inside the container, stuck to the plastic. I tried to rinse it out with meth but it wont budge unless you scrap it with your finger or screwdriver.

The mix is never in the container for more than 15 minutes while I'm on my way to the filling station.

I did a little experiment with and same percentage ratio in a clear plastic bottle ( 0.02% mix (100ml NF in 5ltr meth) and this is what happened after 5 minutes in the bottle

Agitated in the bottle



Settled in the bottle



Has anybody else experienced anything like this?

Its not crystal like, its definately more jelly like. Just worried about whats ending up in the fule tank and clogging the pump filter. Car runs fine with very little noise on the knock link, no amber lights (Knock Link setting check by AndyF during mapping).

HEEELLLLPPPPP

frayz

iTrader: (7)

I use a BLITZ 8ltr plastic fuel can. I have a 50:50 mix of Meth/toluene in it and have not seen this issue mate.

Northern Nick

iTrader: (1)

I think it is more to do with the NF rather than the meth.

I'm just concerned I've got a dodgey batch of NF as I got it reasonably cheap because the bottles were damaged.

Its not cheap though if there no good

scooby0809

iTrader: (11)

do a search on meths mate, its well talked about by the pros when mixing with nf.

Northern Nick

iTrader: (1)

I've spent a bit of time looking in the past but cant remember reading much about that but I'll have another look,

Cheers

lunar tick

iTrader: (2)

Almost certainly some kind of polymerisation reaction between NEAT methanol and NF Nick. Obviously though, happens more rapidly than we thought. Once the methanol is diluted with petrol, doesn't seem to be a problem. Seem to recall that AndyF said methanol and NF should not be mixed without addition of petrol. That's why I've been adding my methanol at the petrol station, then NF, then washing the whole lot down with V-Power

Northern Nick

iTrader: (1)

Just saw you were online, was going to pm you a link here

lunar tick

iTrader: (2)

I must be psychic - the methanol word has reached me through the spirits...

Northern Nick

iTrader: (1)

I think I'm going to start adding NF seperately also, I was lead to believe that it would mix back together when agitated but this mix doesn't. I'll try adding a splash of fuel tomorrow night and see what happens then.

This is the inside of my container

lunar tick

iTrader: (2)

Yes - try a 10% methanol/90% V-Power mix, add NF and then leave and see what happens

jd5217

be interesting to see the results

Northern Nick

iTrader: (1)

Been playing with my chemestry set again tonight

Spent the last 2 hours mixing this with that and in different orders, agitating and settling etc..... with some quite interesting results.

First, I started with the scaled down 5ltr methanol and 100ml of NF. We know what it did from last night but what I didn't notice last night is how fast it happened. The picture below was taken only 5 seconds of a slight agitation



And 15 seconds



As you can see, its not completely seperating as the methanol has changed colour but something is seperating out from it.

The picture below is after 10 minutes and a vigarous agitation



What ever it is that is seperating out is clinging to itself turning into a small ball and turning darker in colour. I decided to drain the methanol NF mix out of the container to see what the ball of "stuff" was like.

The pictures below show the stuff after it has come out. I can only discribe it as a snotty glue/grease. It is very very sticky, very slippery and impossible to get off once its on something.





Right, so time to move on.

I tried a simple Petrol & NF mix next, no particular amounts, just to see how it mixed really. As soon as the petrol hit the NF, the NF desolved and mixed in really well, like ice in hot water.



My next experiment was to simulate in the best posible way, the true mix that I, and most will use. I used a scaled down 45ltrs of petrol (450ml), 5ltrs of methanol (50ml) and 100ml of NF (I should have used 1ml of NF but this didn't seem to me like it would work so I used 3mls to get a good dose in for the experiment). It was added in the order of Petrol, NF then Methanol. Not strickly the way it would be added at a petrol station but I want to see how well it mixed in the most obvious way for the best result. As expected, it mixed up quite nicely with a lovely golden colour and NO floaty bits.

Picture below shows the mix, one thing that became very apparent when dong this bit was how cold the petrol became when that little amount of meth was added. You can see the condensation the cold created on the bottle on the bottom right hand corner the the container.



Lovely

Putting that to a side, I decided to have a closer look at how NF sits in meth. Bellow is a picture of some meth in a jug with NF added with no agitation.



It stays completly seperate with the NF sitting under the meth and the NF has no intension of mixing. Below is a picture of the same mix after a slight stir up



It is starting to seperate out into seperate globules if you like. It wouldn't mix anymore than this by only stiring.

I decided next that I would mix up another 500ml meth and ad 10ml NF to replicate the 5ltr/100ml mix ratio. Same thing happened again as expected, fast seperation and turning into the glue ball after a 10 minute period and a sharp agitation.





So thinking about if this was in my petrol tank, I woundered what would happen if I added some petrol to what I have here. I had run out of petrol by this time and all I have was the previously mixed 450ml petrol 50ml meth 3ml NF. I didn't have a lot of choice so I added this to the meth NF mix. As the petrol mix hit the meth mix the grease ball started to break down into pieces and disperce into the conbined mix of petrol/meth/NF.

Picture below shows after 15 seconds, you cant see to well but there is still little particals floating around in the container.



After a 10 minute period it had almost desolved all the floaty bits and is looking more like the initial mix that I had done.



I didn't think this was a fair test and would have liked to see all the floaty its gone all together. The only reason I can think of that is stopping this from happening is because by the time I had finished, I had more methanol than petrol in my container which, in my mind will not be helping at all. Tomorrow I will get some more petrol and do a few more experiment with the grease ball meth/NF mix and add a relatively similar ratio of fuel to it.

Oh, I also decided to see what happened when I tipped the mix into the container I posted a picture of last night. I gave it a really good shake and tipped it out. Looking into the container I struggle to believe what i saw. It had come perfectly clean

I can only guess that the petrol I have left will be very high octane stuff by now with all the NF and methanol in it. Probably so high that a spark plug wont even ignite it

I haven't come up with a conclusion yet but I will have by tomorrow night.

I'll keep you posted

lunar tick

iTrader: (2)

Brilliant post Nick - thanks for taking the time and trouble!

G.Mac

iTrader: (2)

Ok im lazy and half caned, but methanol and NF will not mix. you have to mix the methanol with petrol before adding the NF or mix petrol with NF and add methanol.

easiest way is to add the nf to the fuel tank and stick in a few litres of fuel then add your %age of methanol then finnish filling up with fuel.

Graeme

cookstar

iTrader: (6)

Great thread

Playsatan

iTrader: (2)

Top work Nick, if you can figure out if a pre-mix solution will work I'd imagine I'd get less funny looks at the petrol station.

GROWLER_GRRRR

interesting reading nick keep the updated labratory test's coming lol

jd5217

excellent reading

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

This is well documented by Andy F already.

Northern Nick

iTrader: (1)

Not be doing any experiments tonight, too tired and had a bad head all day

Would you mind posting a link up mate as I'd like to compare my findings with his. I cant find anything he has wrote regarding NF & Meth apart from him saying they dont mix to well.

Cheers.

Silver Scooby Sport

iTrader: (15)

Out of cuiosity for the guys that use the meth/petrol mix that leave the car park up for periods of time have you had any issues with the Hydroscopic nature of Meth ? (tendency to absorb moisture from air)

DaveBeck

iTrader: (12)

i dont use meth only nf but really enjoyed seeing your findings. cheers for the effort

Northern Nick

iTrader: (1)

I not 100% on my reply to you but I dont think methanol is still hydroscopic when it is mixed with a higher percentage of petrol.

dnc

Northern Nick,
You would qualify for a PhD in 'rocket fuel science' with that level of investigative research.
Well done
dnc

dnc

Be careful you don't do a 'Richard Pryor making freebase' though
dnc

Northern Nick

iTrader: (1)

jasonius

iTrader: (1)

Excellent research Nick..!

Nearly as good as my TMIC/scoop airflow test (IE bits of wool taped all over the bonnet)..

This kind of thing is SN at it's best..

Steve Whitehorn

iTrader: (13)

Top post

Thanks

Northern Nick

iTrader: (1)

Okay dokay, been splashing around in petromethnf again today. Not as exciting as I have just been seeing the same things as I have seen previously.

Today, I have been using V-Power for the tests to see if there is any differances, previous testing done with normal unleaded petrol. I did notice the smell of V-Power is quite intense compared to the previously used unleaded fuel and made me think twice about lighting a smoke in the garage.

First of all, I was trying to see if the floaty bits seen in my last experiments could be desolved by adding petrol to an already mixed methanol & nf solution. Well to cut along story short, yes the petrol will desolve the floaty bit to a degree but will never get rid of all the bits floating around in the mix.

Secondly today, I tried different methods of putting the three together in the same container, trying my best to simulate what would happen in a petrol station. Now this is where I struggled to know exactly what to do as when you go to a petrol station, your car normally hasn't run out of fuel so there is always petrol in the tank but, I'm lead to beleive that there is a low point in the fueling pipe that leads to the petrol tank trapping an unknown amout of what ever was last through the fueling pipe. So I tried a couple of ways, this time, not aggitating the mix at all, as it wouldn't get aggitated while refueling unless there's an earth quake or somebody has just ran into the back of your car, then I dont supposed you'll be concerned about the nf and meth not mixing properly

On this experiment, I tried adding a little petrol to a container as there will be always petrol in your fuel tank, putting a percentage of meth in, adding a percentage of NF after that not aggitating at all. The three mixed very well, and simulating a weaving affect of going up the road swing side to side to mix the fuel in the tank on the car, the complete mix was even with nice little oxygen bubbles rising to the top

The next experiment, baring in mind that if you add methanol first (normally done) then there will be this unknown amount stuck in the fueling pipe to the tank, thats pure methanol stuck in the pipe. I added a percentage of methanol to my container, added the percentage of NF, the picture below shows the result, NF just sits under methanol as seen before



Then I added a percentage of V-Power. The container was not aggitated at this point to try and replicate filling the vehicle. The picture below shows the result



I let it sit for ten minutes (yes, while I went outside for a smoke ) and came back to it to find that it looked look it had mixed in quite well. I aggitated the container to see if there were any bit sitting in the bottom and sure enough there were just tiny little bits




So, after all that, I think I have proved to myself, like most have said all along, you cant add NF to methanol only, not for a second, and the more aggitated the mix is, the worse the mix becomes separating more when shaken. As for adding petrol to the separated mix to desolve it, well, no, it doesn't work either. It will lift it and break it up but from my testing, there will always be little bits floating around in the solution.

Conclusion: DONT MIX NF FORMULA WITH METHANOL ONLY!


So, the next experiment was to try and find how much pertrol has to be added to how much methanol to allow the NF to mix into to it. Well to cut a long story short again (and because I forgot to take pitures (was probably high on V-Power fumes )) I've kept it as brief as possible.

All amounts are basic on the 5ltrs methanol, 100ml NF Formula ratio but at smaller percentages, if that makes sence.

I tried mixing NF with a 100ml Petrol and then adding methanol, nah, it didn't like that, similar result to normal but the separation stuff was blacker.

I tried mixing NF into 500ml of petrol and adding metanol, this seemed OK untill it was aggitated and then you could see the separation.

I tried adding NF to 1ltr of pertrol and then adding methanol, results same as above.

I never tried the 2ltr, 3ltr, 4ltr mixes as time was ticking by fast and I knew I'd be in trouble when I showed my face in the house again

Final test was adding a reduced percentage of 100ml of NF to 5ltrs of V-Power and then adding 5ltrs of methanol. Bingo, that seems to do the trick. It is what I was kinda expecting to see, a 50%/50% mix of methanol/petrol before the NF would blend in.

This would mean, going to the filling station with 10ltrs of the stuff to be able to premix it, I think that would take longer than adding separately.

The only way I can see to run this stuff with out any separations is to either do what AndyF does, tip the methanol into the car, fire 10ltrs of V-Power in, pull the nozzle out and tip you 100ml of Nf in and then fire the rest of the V-Power in, or, premix it all at home in 45 gallon drums

Dont know what the person in the kiosk would think if you rolled one of them out and stuck the nozzle in it to fill it

Well, thats my experimenting done for now, need to get my routine sorted for the next fill up,

So its,

Methanol in, glug...glug...glug....glug, done, can on the floor, nozzle out the pump and v-power in while screwing the top off the nf bottle. V-power nozzle out, NF bottle in, quick look over the shoulder, everthing is cool, NF bottle out, V-power nozzle back in, screw the tops on your containers while the rest of the fuel goes in.

Shouldn't look to dodgey

Cheers all

Andy.F

Or if you are lazy and/or short of time, just add a double dose of NF for normal road use and only put the methanol in for special occasions