New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Hi all,

Warning: long post alert....again!

Just thought I'd share my experience of the latest round of modifications with you all, as

a) The last thread seemed to go down quite well
b) The latest modifications include the hot potato that is an FMIC
and
c) I just like the look of my own text!

Background and car details:

So, where had I got to with the car prior to this stage:

Haywood and Scott Sports Cat DP (wrapped)
Haywood and Scott Decat centre section
Haywood and Scott Original Scooby design backbox
Ported and wrapped OEM headers
Samco turbo kit hoses
Simota Panel filter
VF35 Turbo
Walbro 255lph fuel pump, 3 port boost solenoid
Ecutek Remap by Bob Rawle

It produced 319bhp and 316 ft lbs of torque! Made for a very quick and responsive daily driver!

So, why didn't I leave it at that?

A few reasons:

a) I was at the limit of the standard TMIC
b) I was sick and tired of the ‘drive by’ boost cut mode, which couldn't be mapped out
c) I was also aware that the car wasn't achieving its potential in the first three gears in terms of achieving target boost, owing to the lack of in gear boost compensation facility with the JECS ECU
d) You can never have enough power!

Solving the first issue meant one of two things: install a TMIC from a new age STi, or get an FMIC fitted. So, why didn't I go for the STI TMIC option?

Well, fitting an STi 8 TMIC to a classic is a bit of a chore, and when you weigh up the costs of purchasing and installing it (with the requsite under-tray and larger bonnet scoop), it's not any more economical than getting an FMIC and having that fitted. However, the principle reason for choosing an FMIC was that, good though the new age TMICs are, a TMIC is still in the wrong place i.e. sitting on top of a blooming hot engine! Also, the concensus appears to be that even the best TMICs aren't as good as keeping temps down as a quality FMIC.

So which FMIC? Well, it could be only one: the Hybrid! I'd heard nothing but good reports about this FMIC, especially from the people tasked with fitting them and those who've mapped cars featuring them. These are the folks you want to listen to, believe me, unless you want a very big bill for fitting a piece of dog dodo! What's remarkable about this FMIC is the value for money. I got it for £299 and was genuinely surprised by the quality of the item- it looked great! I'm no engineer, but I've often heard the following saying banded about: "If it looks right, chances are it will be right!"

I was about to find out.

Now, some info for the newbies, or those unfamiliar with what getting an FMIC entails: fitting an FMIC is not a straightforward job and it requires other supporting modifications i.e. an induction kit (there is no room for the standard airbox after an FMIC is fitted) and an ECU remap. As my car is an MY99, which means it has a notoriously fragile MAF sensor, I wanted an induction kit that wouldn't significantly increase the risk of MAF sensor damage. Oh, and one that didn't sound like Henry the hover! The K&N 57i was suggested and subsequently ordered from Scoobyworld. Another quality looking item, I might add!

Ok, so how do I go about addressing the other two issues? Two options: first, ditch the ECU for an after-market one; second, get an electronic boost controller. To be honest, ditching the factory ECU, which is generally regarded as very capable at the levels of tune I was considering, seemed a bit excessive and not especially economical. A Boost controller, however, was much more viable, and could be set up properly by Bob with the ECU remap following the FMIC fitting. Which one? Well, the AVC-R was very well regarded on SN and a quick chat to the experts revealed that it was indeed a capable and economical choice.

At this point I was aware that my 440 injectors were working quite hard at 320bhp and that the FMIC was likely to result in a slightly higher power output. It was likely that the 440s would still have enough headroom to accommodate the increase, but they would be pretty much maxed out. Personally, I don’t think it’s especially wise to run components at their absolute maximum levels, so a call to David at APi saw some nice new 550s arrive at my doorstep the next day

Modification fitting

It was time to fit the modifications to the car. As many of you know, fitting an FMIC does involve cutting into the bumper and inner wing of the car, so it has to be done correctly i.e. NOT by me! Consequently, I wanted to make sure that the car was left with people with experience of this kind of installation in a classic Impreza. I’d already been in touch with Jolly Green Monster about the AVC-R, so asked him if he knew anywhere local. He recommended SW Autos and said that he would install the injectors and AVC-R for me whilst they took care of the intercooler. Great stuff! I arranged things such that the modifications would be fitted the day before the remap, then a drive to Bob’s via the GF’s house to have him work his magic on the car.

Simon and Stewart did a great job fitting the FMIC and associated modifications and the car emerged from the garage looking mean! The FMIC does look very good on a classic…..Bling…..er, well, you know what I mean! *ahem* Simon very kindly put a base map on the car for the new injectors to get me to Bob’s without having to be too gentle with the throttle, although I had no intention of giving the car some beans prior to the remap.

I pulled out of the garage and was pleased to note, the car felt perfectly normal, changed into second very cautiously, still fine, let the revs increase to 2500 rpm then changed into third only to be greeted with the sound of a “chipmunk blender”, to use the words of Jeremy Clarkson.

I should explain. Another knock on effect of an FMIC installation is that most kits require an adapter to allow the standard re-circulating dump valve to fit. The alternative is to run without a dump valve. The chipmunk blender noise occurs because air that would normally have been released by the dump valve when you lift off the accelerator is now stalling across the compressor blades of the turbo. Apart from the lovely WRC style noise, the advantage of running without a dump valve is, apparently, that it can help prevent lag between gear changes that is reputed to afflict FMIC set ups. The disadvantage is that not all turbos are amenable to it; the extra stress can cause some to fail prematurely. SN folklore says that it’s ok to run the TD series of turbos without a dump valve, but not the VF series. This is actually a bit misleading: for the earlier VF turbos, it’s not advisable, but the latter ones appear to be ok with it.

Cue more chipmunk blending noises (it just doesn’t get old – unlike some DV sounds!) and I’m on my way to Bob’s. A car pulls out in front of me, and I give the throttle a little squeeze in a higher gear than is optimal. “Blimey” I think, “the VF35 is spooling even earlier than usual, must be the AVCR doing its stuff!” Suddenly it sounds like I’ve got Woddy Woodpecker under the bonnet.

More explanation is required, methinks. The sound is actually the boost solenoid for the AVC-R doing its job. It’s a noisy bugger and the sound is most unwelcome! Fortunately, there is a simple fix. Mount the solenoid on the bracket that the OEM solenoid is affixed to and stick some rubber under it. That kills off Woddy….no flowers please!

Mapping

Got to Bob’s and watched as he attached all his monitoring equipment to the car; I was anxious to get going and see what the car would be like on boost! The usual sequence of requests to hold certain boost levels ensued, which were made somewhat harder by the fact that it was now pouring down with rain!! Oh great! In Subaru’s AWD we trust! Then to a back road to set up the gear dependent boost control with the AVC-R. This was an eye opener, as you get to see the turbo really strut its stuff in the first 3 gears for the first time. Previously, the boost levels and boost climb rates would have been respectively lower and slower in these gears than in 4th and 5th gear.

This is the experience of a first time run in first gear with an FMIC Scooby, having been accustomed to the TMIC set up.

Apply WOT
Wonder what an earth that hissing noise is “woooooaaaaaaa f**king elllllllll”
Hit limiter
Apologise for crap driving

It’s pretty much the same story for the other gears too, although you have a bit more time to avoid hitting the limiter.

It was immediately obvious that the car had undergone a significant change: the boost was now coming in sooner and when the turbo had fully girded its loins, the car was lunging forward considerably more violently; it felt like it had taken quite a leap in peak torque. It was stronger everywhere. Moreover, there was none of the drop off in performance that you get with TMICs; repeated and sustained boost was not a problem. It felt great.

I was keen to see how much of this improvment was subjective and what difference the FMIC had made to the mapping of the car. “TMICs and FMICs are chalk and cheese” was Bob’s candid reply: “I’ve just dialled in 5 degrees of ignition advance on your car over the TMIC set up, which was struggling! You’re showing quite a bit more torque.”

No kidding. We did several power runs and the figures were 338bhp and a very pleasing 343ft lbs of torque, from a humble UK spec car with a very quick spooling VF35! Nice! I think you’ll agree!

Yes, yes, but what about drivability and the infamous lag issue?

Ok, this has been a contentious issue on SN and I should preface my contribution by reiterating that my car is a road car, not a track toy. Drivability is, and always has been, paramount. It should be noted that I had the AVC-R installed at the same time as the FMIC and this does complicate comments concerning boost characteristics somewhat. HOWEVER, many times when people talk about their experiences of lag associated with FMICs, they don’t state their supporting modifications, which are likely to be significant determinants of the effect on an FMIC installation on drivability. I’ve not made that mistake. The only relevant aspect of my car’s configuration that I’ve neglected to mention so far is that it is running with the standard up-pipe.

With the above specification I can confidently say that the FMIC set up has done absolutely nothing deleterious to boost characteristics. The lag that some have spoken of just has not materialised. I’ve also not noticed any more lag between gear changes over the TMIC set up, perhaps this is due, at least in part, to running without a dump valve. What has changed is the “ompf factor” when the turbo comes on song, which is now significantly greater. The car also feels more “meaty” throughout the rev range and the performance is now entirely consistent, no matter how much sustained boost you’ve been using. If you get stuck in traffic for a while before pulling away, the car no longer feels a bit flat for a little while afterwards. You also definitely feel the benefits of the FMIC when you’re putting your foot down at motorway speeds, the car feels noticeably stronger.

Yeah, yeah, but you’ve just spent a tidy sum getting these modifications installed, you’re hardly going to give us an negative report, are you? Come on, are there any disadvantages to the FMIC installation

Take my word for it, if it had detracted from the drivability of the car, I’d be straight with you all! Potentially, yes there are some disadvantages to the installation. Firstly, as previously stated, you do have to cut into the car’s bumper and inner wing, which may be unacceptable to some. Secondly, the engine bay no longer looks stock; you can now tell it’s a modified car; some will like this, others will find it objectionable. Thirdly, there is a lot more induction noise audible from the cabin. It’s an acquired taste, I really like it; it sounds purposeful and aggressive, but some may find it irritating or a bit conspicuous! Fourthly, as noted, the AVC-R boost solenoid makes a really annoying row- you should avoid this from the outset by getting it rubber mounted to the bracket the OEM boost solenoid is attached to. On the subject of the AVC-R, you might want to use Velcro to affix it to the dashboard, as if you use the stickers and bracket provided the very nifty looking interface will be on display in the car at all times and constitute a security risk. Finally, if you’re going to run without a dump valve, you need to be aware that it does make on and off throttle transitions in the lower gears and when coming off boost in all gears (without pressing in the clutch) more jerky. You can, of course, drive around this, but some might not want to!

That’s about it!

Oh, you want to see the graph don’t you?

Image of FMIC modification - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

Thanks to:

Jolly Green Monster (Simon) who is a really nice, helpful and knowledgeable chap, Stewart at SW Autos for doing a neat job on the FMIC install, David at APi, Harvey, Dannyboy007, Scoobyworld and Bob Rawle

Questions?

Hope you found the above informative.

Ns04

lunar tick

iTrader: (2)

Very good read - thanks for sharing. Made for a nice break from the work I should have been doing

Very interesting to hear your thoughts on driveability with the FMIC installed. I ran a VF35 and Hybrid FMIC on a 2L mapped by Bob and I found it a bit like driving with a throttle connected to an elastic band. But then I used to drive a car running throttle bodies and that had instant response, so maybe I'm just a paranoid old git . But then that was using a variety of dumpvalves (all tried to see if we could reduce lag), so maybe running with no DV is helping. Anyway, the main thing is that you're pleased with it and that's after all what it's all about

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

LOL, I'm not responsible for any lost work time!

I was concerned about the lag between gear change issue that I recall you'd identified, hence running without the dump valve.

Certainly seems to have done the trick. Throttle response from a turbo will never be as good as the best NA engines, but it's certainly not noticeably worse with the FMIC than it was with the TMIC.

Ns04

Tidgy

glad your happy with it matey.

told you the front mount didn't make any noticable differenace to lag

lunar tick

iTrader: (2)

Hmm - you've got me thinking now. I wonder if the throttle response on my Hyperflow TMIC and MD321H setup would be improved even further if I ditched the OEM DV . Besides, I just love those squirrel noises you get without a DV

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

I'll try and get some recordings for you, it is a great noise!!

In the meantime, this gives you an idea!

YouTube - Subaru Impreza GT Kuruma

Ads78

iTrader: (2)

Ns04, that was a great read. You seem to have achieved the results which I aspire to.

As a daily driver, what sort of fuel consumption do you get?

Is SW Autos in Biddenden?? I need a cambelt change and would prefer to avoid my local Subaru dealers, I take it you would recommend these guys?

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Ads, ta

I haven't had the heart to measure properly! lol

I can certainly get 250miles out of a tank with a combination of sensible driving with the occasional blast.

Stewart at SW autos (Yes, it's in Biddenden) certainly knows his way around a turbo car; he has a lovely 800bhp Skyline of his own development! So I'd recommend him definitely! Really nice chap and clearly no stranger to Subarus!

Ns04

Aztec Performance Ltd

iTrader: (234)

Very good write up

Get some pics up though...!

trails

iTrader: (41)

glad you are still pleased with the car and great to see a balanced write up of actual facts rather than people repeating what they have read

btw you better get some pics up...it will help Bob shift more fmic's

Aztec Performance Ltd

iTrader: (234)

trails

iTrader: (41)

HKS SSQV with a recirculating adapter sounds pretty much the same when dumping full boost

53

iTrader: (41)

Nice write up. Pretty much a similar path to the one I am on although I have started relatively conservative with the DV blanking and the Simtek re: maf concerns. I am interested to see the difference DV blanking makes to the turbo as the standard classic lag is seems quite noticable. Should say compared to my 2.5 remapped STi (not a fair comparison I know).

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

You ask, I deliver.

I've have been as unflattering as I can with this picture: camera phone taken right up close and personal and from an angle slightly lower than the bumper line on a wonky drive. And it still looks nice

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v683/ns04/FMIC.jpg

Apologies for the dirty car!

Bob, I want commission!!!

Ns04

Aztec Performance Ltd

iTrader: (234)

Commission? And spend it on a photography course

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Would you like to see my *other* photographs?

jasonius

iTrader: (1)

Very well written account as usual..

Humm, providing your 35 is still running OK in six months I might have to give the DV delete a try..

I take it there's no reason you can't do this with a TMIC (as I don't have any CT issues)..?

More pics of the engine bay please..

Out of interest, was your previous map on v-power or optimax..?

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Good question!

Optimax if memory serves, but then had it tweaked for V power
I'd urge a bit of caution in comparing headline figures per se. I didn't go for the FMIC for gains, but those that happen are nice It's more of an engine efficiency/safety mod. The real difference isn't so much in the peak figures as much as the way the boost is now delivered and the impact it's had on the torque curve, which is higher pretty much everywhere: due to the extra ignition advance permitted by the FMIC I guess?

I don't think there is any reason why you can't delete the dump valve with a TMIC, although the chatter might not be as loud without the induction cone etc...

Both Bob and David said the 35 would be fine at the boost levels I'm running (1.35 peak).
Ns04

dnc

Nice one NS, another well written, informative post. Think you made the correct choice wrt top-mount; the larger bonnet scoop does not suit the classic look IMHO.
dnc

jasonius

iTrader: (1)

Ah the old V-power tweak..

My VF35 might not be up for it then as I run 1.5bar (holding 1.3 @6k)..

Actually it was mapped for 1.5 but my defi's often show 1.6..

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Yep, Bob found that the car wanted a little more fuel in the map after the switch to VPower, didn't do a power run, so unsure if it yielded any increase, most likely ver marginal if any.

You'll probably still be ok, ask your mapper for their opinion....didn't Bob do yours too??

Ns04

jasonius

iTrader: (1)

Yep, Bob..

Had a tweak last autumn as it seemed a little feting of the OEM airbox (mainly heat management) resulted in the engine sucking in more air. Only knew about it as I started to get to odd KL red..!

So a bit more fuel and some WG duty adjustments. The difference was . So much stronger through the gears in the mid range, particularly 2nd..!

As Andy F says, 'many a mickle makes a muckle'..

Where's those engine bay pics BTW..?

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

As requested mate.

Image of FMIC install 4 - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...Photo-0296.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...Photo-0295.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...Photo-0294.jpg

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Oh, and another disadvantage: You have to loose the plastic undertray things that sit under the engine bay

trails

iTrader: (41)

10 min job to trim it so it fits with a fmic

hoskib

iTrader: (1)

lol, sounds like a ******* horse sneezing!

great write up

dunx

iTrader: (3)

In a parallel story I have a Forge VTA with their softest spring in and mine only "dumps" when the car and the weather are cold.... the rest of the time it's chipmunk time....

I like it !

Fantastic write up as well !

DunxC

P.S. wardrobe is still higher spec than my Scoob.... (MD321H + manifold) LOL

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Ah, is it worth the hassle or shall I just leave it off.
.
.

By me, I mean the friendly mechanic!

burt2000

iTrader: (1)

is that sound not compressor surge??

trails

iTrader: (41)

mine is actually off at the mo but after offering up my oil filter and sandwhich plate for my oil cooler its going to drop the filter by 20\25mm. That drop makes me nervous about road debris hitting it...paranoid; moi?