Chris L

Came home tonight to find the new issue of Evo on the door mat. Outstanding read as ever and a big article on the new WRX, up against a UK MY00. Here are a couple of quotes:

'We figured the WRX on a wet, blustery day and managed 0-60mph in 6.0 secs (Turbo 5.4) and 100 in 18.3 (14.6!). Worse still, our in-gear times show the WRX is seconds adrift of the Turbo's times for 30-50mph in fourth and 50-70 in top. Yes it was windy when we tested the new car, but it felt pretty sluggish.'

'Although the WRX's engine has been remapped to improve low-down torque, it's not evident with an extra 150 kg to haul.'

The new car is more refined with better ride, improved grip, better cabin - but then I could have bought a BMW and got these..

Nice car (and it will still blow away just about any other mid-range car you care to mention), but still not enough to tempt me away from my MY00.

Chris

john banks

This month's Evo & Autocar figures along with 12/98 test of MY99 and Autocar BMW 330Ci (3rd/4th/5th in gear times)

MY99
MY01 Evo
MY01 Autocar
330Ci

20-40
4.6/8.2/13.5
5.0/9.7/19.2
5.6/9.6/16.3
4.8/7.4/9.8
30-50
3.5/6.5/11.4
4.0/8.4/15.1
4.3/8.0/14.5
4.3/6.8/9.3
40-60
3.2/5.2/9.4
3.9/6.9/13.4
3.6/6.4/12.2
4.2/6.3/8.7
50-70
3.3/4.8/8.3
4.3/6.6/10.9
3.6/5.3/9.6
4.1/6.0/8.3
60-80
3.6/5.0/7.7
7.3/7.9/9.1
3.8/5.6/8.6
4.3/5.9/7.9
70-90
4.2/5.3/7.9
---/9.9/10.2
4.6/6.0/9.4
4.5/6.4/8.2
80-100
---/5.8/8.8
---/12.9/---
---/6.6/10.3
5.4/6.7/9.0

Note the 330Ci is faster than the WRX in most situations, but the MY99 is faster than the 330Ci in most situations.
Sure glad I got one of the last of the "old" ones! Being able to hear the turbo spooling up and the punch in the back were the reasons I bought the car along with the idle noise! I think I will be considering the 330Ci rather than the WRX as my next car.

Roll on the STi and the end of affordable performance.

[Edited to make figures readable and add BMW and Autocar times]


[This message has been edited by john banks (edited 06 November 2000).]

Chris L

Yes, that's the reason I bought mine too
It's the in-gear times that I find disappointing. For me, this is where the car really comes into its own and to see that they are worse doesn't seem like progress to me.

Chris

Hunk

Bummer. With my budget there is no such thing as choosing a fat BMW... What does EVO writes about handling? I'm more interested in lap-times than in the 0-infinity figures.
Where the 00 and 01 compared side by side or do they use old data for the 00 figures?

Hunk

Bummer. With my budget there is no such thing as choosing a fat BMW... What does EVO writes about handling? I'm more interested in lap-times than in the 0-infinity figures.
Where the 00 and 01 compared side by side or do they use old data for the 00 figures?

Oops, something went wrong.. doubleposted

[This message has been edited by Hunk (edited 07 November 2000).]

Chris L

Well I wasn't being that scientific I think it's got more to do with BMW not liking the Japanese upstarts beating their 'performance' models

I would also suggest that they are closer than you think. I reckon that a fair number of people buying a new car these days are using some form of lease agreement (especially if it is a company vehicle). The rates generally are not that different. A colleague at work bought a BMW, I bought the Scoob - they were both similar amounts (give or take - but you get the idea).

If you are just looking at buying a car outright, then I think you're right, but I think BMW and others are looking at it in a slightly different way.

Chris

PS Guys - please don't start posting loads of quotes from leasing companies - I know the rates vary a lot depending on mileage etc, but in my case, both cars fell into the same category. Chris

john banks

Old data for the MY99, but even so... The BM trounces it, and a 325i imported for £20k from Europe would probably equal it (similar perf. to old 328i - only 1 bhp less) at least for in gear times if not 0-60 or 30-70.
Oh no, I'm turning into a BMW fan But I'll keep my MY00!

Chris L

In some ways you could take this as a back handed compliment. After all, VW are proposing a new 'mega' Golf, there is the new Focus RS and BMW have introduced the 330.

I guess that Subaru moved the goal posts for mid range cars when they launched the Impreza Turbo. I reckon we will have to wait for the 280BHP version to redress the balance.

Chris

Mungo

You need to compare like with like.

They may be competitive on performance, but a 330Ci is £27,540 in standard trim. That's about £5.5k more than the MY01. I think that may push the beemer out of the budget rande of a lot of Scooby owners, just as a Ferrari 360 is quicker, and would be the car of choice of a lot of us, funds allowing.
The Scooby (current/old car at least) also has a lot of character, something the beemer really lacks.

Hunk

Some Dutch prices (basemodel incl. tax)

Impreza turbo 57000 guilders
318 66100
320 79000
325 85000
330 97000
330xi 105000
AudiS3 92000
Accord Type R 84000

As you can see, there is no comparison..

SwissSub

John, the important in the number you give is the first column that's to say the lowest time you can get for a given measure. I don't care if the 330ci is faster 5th in gear on 40-60, the important is who can get the fastest on 40-60 ...

The results then seems to be in general
MY99 > MY01 > 330ci

The two results obtained on the MY01 by EVO and Autocar are too much different to be trusted. On some measures we simply have the EVO measure that is the double of the Autocar's one (60-80 3rd in gear, 80-100 4th in gear). One of them is not fair because you cannot have such discrepencies in those results.

john banks

Agreed. I think the 12.something 80-100 in 4th must actually be 5th gear, but that is how they printed it. 60-80 in 3rd also as printed but looks like a mistake. But the rest are consistently down by a similar proportion compared with MY99. I disagree that the first column is the most important - the most important is the furthest down in each column as that is the area around peak power (5600rpm) and therefore the best acceleration. Although the MY01 Autocar (the one putting the MY01 in the best light) is quicker than the BMW in some increments, at the top of the rev range eg 70-90 in 3rd and 80-100 in 4th the BMW is virtually identical as the Scoob seems to give out at the top end. So maybe the Scoob wins on midrange, but the BMW beats it on low and equals it on high end. With the kick in the back and noise of the turbo gone, then why not just go for natural aspiration and have the extra flexibility and better throttle response? With 0-60 and 30-70 in 6.0 and 0-100 in around 16, the BMW in real life would probably be at least as fast as MY01. My overall point is that MY99 trounces them all and the MY01 is so much more like so many other previously less exciting cars. **(Of course I haven't driven it yet!)**

The Euro prices really put the MY01 in a better light compared with the BMW though.

[This message has been edited by john banks (edited 07 November 2000).]

Sapphy

Man they're bad times.

My 150bhp Sierra can pull 50-70 in 5th in 8 seconds.

Fair enough it hasnt got a turbo, but i'd be gutted if i had a WRX and it got leveled between 50-70 by a humble H reg Sierra Sapphire. Fair enough after that it'll probably be curtains, but i have dabbled a UK Scoob before from 80 and i was far from impressed.

Still, the Sti V/22B/P1 i wouldnt mess with tho

Mike

Des

Well Ive been looking at the new scooby and
I have come to the following conclusions:

a) Its ugly.
b) Its now underpowered
c) To get real power you need to wait for an
STI in two years.
d) Current import prices are in the £26K+ for
an STI. I dont expect the price to drop for
the new STI so add +- £2K.
e) if all the above is true a new M3 can be
imported for £33K.

Yes I know the scooby handles better but I
cant justify to myself a purchase where
pricing is this close (ie 28K to 33K) and
I know Ill get better resale for the BMW.

f) I really dont like beemers so what does
this tell you about my disappointment with
the new model.

FLAME SUIT ON!!! (Help help its not working)

Des (MY00,DBM the last good model.....)

schuey

D'oh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



[This message has been edited by schuey (edited 07 November 2000).]

schuey

My copy of EVO just arrived this morning. Straight to the Impreza article. Well I knew the new model was slower but I did not think it was that much slower. Nearly 4 secs to 100mph.
What have they done?
They have made it a civilised car, if I wanted one of those I would buy a BMW or a Merc.
As Clarkson said in The Sun on Friday, the appeal of the old car was how raw it was, and that people who buy them listen to music to make your ears bleed and don't mind sleeping on the floor.
New Impreza " very ugly and very slow "
I'll be sticking with the MY99 for some time yet.

merlin

For anyone interested, Clarkson's take on the MY01 can be found at

bugwaan

Are you guys all raving lunatics..
Now I live in Australia and surely it cant be that different in the UK...
Where can anyone go from 0-100 mph other than a racetrack....Thats 160 kmh whuch is 60 kmh faster than our speed limits..and I know that UK aint no Germany with autobahns etc...so what is the fuss over all these times quoted.
Question? Does anyone actually rev to 6000rpm then dump the clutch in the ability to post great 0-whatever times??...Grow up...the answer is for 99% of you NO!!!
So that then leaves in gear times which although slower than MY00 or b4 are still bloody quick. None of you can accurately measure 0-whatever times coz u dont have he right equipment..if you can and u use your car on a track, then it makes no difference coz u would modify the exhaust, chip it and whatever else u want to do which would ensure it blows even the old turbo off the road. So again...the lot of u...GET REAL!!

As for the 330BMW....
How can any of you compare a Japanese fast car to refined luxury German Car like a 330ci. In OZ its A$100,000 vs $42,990 for the WRX so there is no comparison.
You wont like hearing this, but the sube has a long way to go to catch up to BMW...its not a speed thing...its the whole car thing.. and i am not talking about a race track. talking about every day driving.
A sube will only turn heads of sube fans ..all the others look at it coz of its scoop on the bonnet...very strange to normal ppl so they have a perv at it.
The BMW is a BMW and ppl look at it coz BMW a have invested millions creating the marque that it now has...Its up with a Mercedes Benz you know!!...a sube??...surely not..

I own an MY01 and love it, but lets be serious...a BMW it will never be..!!

One more point....who the hell cares about 80-100 times (128kmh-160kmh)...totally useless...and dont try and tell me u have speed limit free roads....

GROW UP ALL OF YOU....

blubs

bugwaan,

On a personal note it's as simple as this.

I am not willing to fork out six grand on top of the value of my 99 Turbo to buy a car that is slower and uglier.

I agree you cannot compare a Subaru to a 'refined' German marque like the BMW, but thats just what it is. Refined. The Subaru buries it in terms of driver ennjoyment IMHO, and I have driven both.

It all depends on what you want for everyday driving, and I want excitement AND practicability. For me the BMW only delivers on the second part.

At the end of the day though its just my opinion.

Perhaps I should buy a BMW and grow up

blubs

Robertio

iTrader: (1)

In response to bugwaan, I'm sure that you will find that a large percentage of UK cars are used up to (and heaven forbid) beyond the 80-100 increment.
Take for instance the situation where you are sitting behind a queue of 3 cars doing 50mph, there is a gap so you pull out to face oncoming traffic, were you to accelerate to 60 and sit at the speedlimit it would take you something like a mile to get past them (or make contact with car coming the other way). The rest of us accelerate until we get back onto our own side of the road, be it 110, 120 or whatever, and then slow down (perhaps) to our nornmal driving speed, so minimising the time you are exposed to danger on the wrong side of the road. This may be technically illegal, but to me seems to be a sensible choice.
This is ignoring the fact that a reasonable percentage (read most) of people sit around 90 on a motorway. Any Impreza would be a waste of time if all you did was drive at up to 60, personally I would then be looking at a car with supershort gearing for the frist 4 gears, effectively red lining at 60 in forth, with 5th available for economic cruising.
Sorry for the ramble, all just my opinion of course.

john banks

Comparison with BMW is often relevant - if you want a rear or AWD vehicle with good performance and practicality then there aren't THAT many choices in the UK. The prices are not THAT far apart either. For me buying MY00 it was a choice between that or (at the time) 328Ci. If I preferred the drive of the BMW I would have bought it. As it was I preferred the Scoob to drive and happened to save lots of money. Refinement and ride qual do not matter that much to me IF the drive is good, and overall I would get in the Scoob every time over any sub £30k BMW/Merc. I don't think the BMW is a better car than MY99/00 overall, but that is why I bought a Subaru. I think there are a lot of people in the UK that would have the choice between a 3 series and a Scoob either private or company. Cost per mile is not that far off here when you consider lower insurance and fuel costs for the BMW. In terms of sports saloons they are both at the top of their class. Given that the turbo push and noise have gone and Subaru are playing at refinement, next time round I suspect I will end up with the BMW. My choice, the price is not that different that it really matters to me. If I wanted a practical, fast point to point car, I don't think there is anything else below the cost of the EVO to touch the old model. The drop in performance of the new car is highly relevant. The in gear times are crap as tested so far, and a long way off the MY99/00. This would be enough to make me not buy it alone. After all it is a "performance" car and the differences do not appear insignificant!

As I said above, this is a UK perspective. I can see from the posted prices in Amsterdam and Australia that comparison is less relevant. But for me certainly they are direct competitors.

[This message has been edited by john banks (edited 08 November 2000).]

Chris L

In response to some of what Bugwaan has said. I agree that just quoting 0-X is of little relevance on its own (only really useful for discussing traffic light grand prix's down the pub). My original post was a direct quote from 'Evo'.

In gear times are much more 'real world'. For me it is that performance that I like about my car (and for that reason, makes it one of the safest over-taking cars around - period).

Direct comparisons with similar cars are limited, simply because there aren't many similar cars at the Scooby price (in the UK anyway and hence the reason for the inevitable comparisons with BMW etc).

As I mentioned before, because a lot of cars are now bought on lease agreements, it is about more than just the on the road price - again the reason that the Scooby gets compared to traditionally 'higher class' cars (for want of a better expression)

Quote: Are you guys all raving lunatics?
- probably yes

Chris

JayDee

I bought a scoob instead of a BMW for its shear ***** out performance (acceleration, speed, handling, grip, etc). It is cheaper than the BMW but the gap is narrowing with the 330

They are different cars - for ME scoob is the best compromise between practicability (BMW) and 100% performance (Lotus 340R, Westfield Si etc)

Looking at the original figures, who the hell EVER drives at 20 mph in 5th gear!

JD

TRIGGER

Firstly, my colleague was offered a BMW M3 for delivery in Feb at £30,500, so prices are closing all the time. (I personally would still prefer the Sti though.)

Secondly, Robertio is absolutely correct - 80-100 is a vital performance measure in the UK where most people I know drive at 90-100 consistently.

Lastly, Bugwaan has obviously been beaten into submission by the ozzie police - we still can have fun over here (only just I admit) and that is what scoobies are all about. I didnt get a BMW coz I dont find them nearly as fun. 0-60 is pretty meaningless, but it's always fun to be able to out accelerate others at traffic lights - well I enjoy it anyway. In fact 0-30 is more important. Fun - that's the key for me.

bugwaan

In reply..
No the ozzie cops havent got me whipped just yet...I can still have some fun away from the dozens of rotten speed cameras moving around all over the place..real ****** down here i tell u.
Overtaking and flying up to whatever speed neccessary (ie: flat out) is essential for a safe overtake so the faster the better...but not 0-160kmh..maybe 100kmh to 150kmh is probably more realistic assuming you r overtaking only 1 car. allow a tad more for a truck.
And I forgot to add that i agree with u guys that the BMW is to different to the scoob to compare.
The sube is pure fun and i wouldnt swap it for any 330ci....maybe an M3....!!
And as for the MY99/00 model...i love it and would have bought it but couldnt really justify it with the new model so close so i bought a my01. It may not be as fast but coming from an 84kw Pug its really really quick....
When i get used to the speed (that is, not fast enough) i'll start some serious whinging....
So Again..
BMW 330ci....great car but i don't want it
Subaru My99/00/01..I'll take any of em..
and save $60,000..or an M3...i'll save $100,000

chrisp

Auto express this week have an article about the new STi. Six speed very slick gear box . Aparently they are looking to official import the STi for around 30K. They say it is supposely as fast if not faster than the current STi.

cheers

chrisp

Dippy

I really want to like the MY01, but as the days go by I am becoming less interested. I only had my MY00 for 5 months but I loved it for all the reasons we know.

Some of the new features/characteristics of the MY01 appeal to me, but if it now lacks excitement, then I'm asking myself "can't I get those same features and more in another car?" The answer seems to be yes, as I'm looking at the BMW 330i in the Tourer model.

The MY01 that I would want is a sportswagon with extras to take it to just under £24K. The 330i SE comes with loads of extras and I'd actually be happy with one costing £28K.

Clearly BMWs cost a lot more down under!

I use personal finance for my car so with the BMW's better residuals, it wouldn't cost me any more.

Of course I'm not going to make my decision until I test drive both cars. Despite the fact the people have already bought MY01s in Oz, here in the UK we can't even get a test drive yet!

I think that Subaru are taking a BIG gamble here. If I, as someone who appreciates a smoother, quieter engine, and doesn't mind the ugly looks of the new car, is already losing interest, then how the hell are the rest of you going to be interested either?

[This message has been edited by Dippy (edited 08 November 2000).]

Des

Also read the Autosport article today.

If the STI costs £30K then that M3
comparison becomes a whole lot more relevant,
with an imported Beemer costing £33K.
Dont know how the prices would compare with
Oz though.

bugwaan

DES
In reply and going with the current exchange rates the cost of the cars in Australia converted to British Pounds is as follows..

WRX 15,700 pounds
330ci 36,500 pounds
M3 54,750 pounds..

As you can see, a 6 cylinder BMW is out of the question when buying in Australia.
You guys in UK have it cheap.and never forget that.
Try 121,000 pounds for a Porsche Turbo....crazy

Dippy

Bugwaan,

Firstly the cost of living in the UK is much higher than Australia.

Secondly yes, it appears that we can buy BMWs, Porches etc. cheaper here than you, but NOT the WRX.

As you have stated the GBP equivalent price in Australia is 15.7K. Here it is over 5K more.

If you're a Scooby fan then the Australians have got it cheap - never forget that!!!

So now do you understand why we are being less enthusiastic than you about the new WRX?

[This message has been edited by Dippy (edited 09 November 2000).]