official response from Subaru regarding engine noise.
16 April 2003, 10:43 AM
#1
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Denmark
Posts: 292
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is another follow-up on my numerous posts and threads about my MY01 which has an unexplainable engine noise (cambelt tensioner already changed). A while ago a "specialist" from Subaru came to the dealership and listened to my engine. Then he was to correspond with Japan to determine the cause of this noise. Unfurtunately I´m not able to scan the fax but here is the official correspondance between the importer and the dealer:
Fax of 18/03/03
Claim from customer who believes his car has a piston slap problem because he´s seen something on the Internet.
Fortunately this car wasn´t the only purpose of our visit because it´d have been difficult to justify my travel expenses. As we could together witness, this car works correctly. We could only hear operation sounds of the engine, but no noise due to abnormal operation, in our conviction. Anyway no noise to worry about at this point, or for which a specific origin could be identified. We have questioned our Japanese colleagues and we are expecting a confirmation. At this point, there´s no question of taking any action on this car. We are astonished by the attitude of your customer who announces that he knows that even if Japanese engineers knew about a piston slap noise problem they wouldn´t say it. Why would anyone want to act like that? Your customer may have have had previous difficult experiences with other brands of cars. Ask him. For several years you could witness with us that FHI engineers have supported us in order to ensure your customers´ satisfaction, given that their requirements remain resonable, of course. Your customer explained that he expects that his car be prepared for free to a 10 years live without repairs. In other words, implicitly, he would like a warranty extension to a total duration of 7 to 10 years. Aren´t all those demands and claims from the customer excuses to lead you to a commercial transaction: by back his car? You know that some employees from large organisations, taking advantage of their tax exemptions and also of the possibility to put you under pressure by reminding you who they work for, may be tempted to swap car quite often...at low cost. We´ll keep you informed as soon as we get more technical information about possible piston noises.
Fax of 21/03/03
Good news for your customer. We received an answer from our Japanese colleagues regarding piston slap noise on WRX MY´01. They confirmed no possibility of piston slap noise was ever acknowledged by FHI on WRX MY´01. That doesn´t mean that there has been an isolated case of piston defect that could have been reported on the Internet. Analysis of probability is made upon analytical and statistical basis, and statistics are based on the study of a "population" rather than by extrapolation out of one isolated case. Anyway, should one isolated case occur (wrong piston size or bad piston installation) it would definately demonstrate by audible typical piston slap noise, which isn´t the case, at this time, in this car. We have opened a case file on this car. Please keep us informed in case of further alteration.
This completes the correspondance between the importer and my dealer from whow I bought the car from new.
Unfurtunately I have to go now, but I´ll be back with my comments on this nonsense.
Claus
Fax of 18/03/03
Claim from customer who believes his car has a piston slap problem because he´s seen something on the Internet.
Fortunately this car wasn´t the only purpose of our visit because it´d have been difficult to justify my travel expenses. As we could together witness, this car works correctly. We could only hear operation sounds of the engine, but no noise due to abnormal operation, in our conviction. Anyway no noise to worry about at this point, or for which a specific origin could be identified. We have questioned our Japanese colleagues and we are expecting a confirmation. At this point, there´s no question of taking any action on this car. We are astonished by the attitude of your customer who announces that he knows that even if Japanese engineers knew about a piston slap noise problem they wouldn´t say it. Why would anyone want to act like that? Your customer may have have had previous difficult experiences with other brands of cars. Ask him. For several years you could witness with us that FHI engineers have supported us in order to ensure your customers´ satisfaction, given that their requirements remain resonable, of course. Your customer explained that he expects that his car be prepared for free to a 10 years live without repairs. In other words, implicitly, he would like a warranty extension to a total duration of 7 to 10 years. Aren´t all those demands and claims from the customer excuses to lead you to a commercial transaction: by back his car? You know that some employees from large organisations, taking advantage of their tax exemptions and also of the possibility to put you under pressure by reminding you who they work for, may be tempted to swap car quite often...at low cost. We´ll keep you informed as soon as we get more technical information about possible piston noises.
Fax of 21/03/03
Good news for your customer. We received an answer from our Japanese colleagues regarding piston slap noise on WRX MY´01. They confirmed no possibility of piston slap noise was ever acknowledged by FHI on WRX MY´01. That doesn´t mean that there has been an isolated case of piston defect that could have been reported on the Internet. Analysis of probability is made upon analytical and statistical basis, and statistics are based on the study of a "population" rather than by extrapolation out of one isolated case. Anyway, should one isolated case occur (wrong piston size or bad piston installation) it would definately demonstrate by audible typical piston slap noise, which isn´t the case, at this time, in this car. We have opened a case file on this car. Please keep us informed in case of further alteration.
This completes the correspondance between the importer and my dealer from whow I bought the car from new.
Unfurtunately I have to go now, but I´ll be back with my comments on this nonsense.
Claus
29 May 2003, 04:50 PM
#3
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Essex
Posts: 1,115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good news it seems to me, in a sense.
They don't think its piston slap, but have agreed to log the fault in case of a future problem.
It doesn't get your problem resolved, but if some thing happens in the future then your problem is logged on file somewhere.
They don't think its piston slap, but have agreed to log the fault in case of a future problem.
It doesn't get your problem resolved, but if some thing happens in the future then your problem is logged on file somewhere.
30 May 2003, 03:37 PM
#6
Scooby Regular
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sounds to me like you have an unrealistic expectation if there is no noise what do you want them to do !
Were you present when the vehicle was examined ?
Did you demonstrate the fault ?
Did you get the Subaru engineer to agree with you that there was a noise ?
Was the engine started from cold ?
If you are poisitive there is a problem with your vehicle why not
spend a few Euro and engage an independent Automobile Engineer
and surely Subaru would have to consider his report if it confirms your vehicle has a problem !
Were you present when the vehicle was examined ?
Did you demonstrate the fault ?
Did you get the Subaru engineer to agree with you that there was a noise ?
Was the engine started from cold ?
If you are poisitive there is a problem with your vehicle why not
spend a few Euro and engage an independent Automobile Engineer
and surely Subaru would have to consider his report if it confirms your vehicle has a problem !
30 May 2003, 10:36 PM
#7
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Denmark
Posts: 292
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi, and thanks for your interest in this matter.
Just thought that I would mention that my car is a WRX ´01. I bought it new, in October 2002 and from a very low mileage the engine made a sound very similar to piston slap which was also the first diagnose from my dealer upon listening to it from cold start in my garage. When the time came and the "expert" from the Belgium importer had a listen to it he started off with revving the engine from cold with the bonnet opened. And what happened. The noise drowned in the noises that an engine normally makes when revved and hey presto, no problem. Remember that my dealer earlier admitted that it sounded like the slap. I invited the "expert" inside the car where the sound normally is most audible but by then the engine was already warm enough and the oil dristibuted to all corners by him revving it, that the noise was not very noticeable. He admitted though that he could hear something, but apparently he wouldn´t put this in writing. The cambelt tensioner has been changed but it made no difference whatsoever.
Now what makes so pi...d in this case is that Subaru used to be fair and correct the problems with the classic shape, but when it comes to the new models they don´t seem to care. Or at least they don´t know what to do.
All I know is that I have a car that makes a hell of a knocking noise for the first 5-7 minutes after start up and Subaru says that there is no problem. Must state that the engine uses no oil at all and sounds sweet when warm. But my main concern is cylinder ovality over the years. I plan to keep my car for a very long time.
Perhaps they installed the new cambelt tensioner wrong, as I´ve read on here that the correct way to install them is backwards??
Claus
Just thought that I would mention that my car is a WRX ´01. I bought it new, in October 2002 and from a very low mileage the engine made a sound very similar to piston slap which was also the first diagnose from my dealer upon listening to it from cold start in my garage. When the time came and the "expert" from the Belgium importer had a listen to it he started off with revving the engine from cold with the bonnet opened. And what happened. The noise drowned in the noises that an engine normally makes when revved and hey presto, no problem. Remember that my dealer earlier admitted that it sounded like the slap. I invited the "expert" inside the car where the sound normally is most audible but by then the engine was already warm enough and the oil dristibuted to all corners by him revving it, that the noise was not very noticeable. He admitted though that he could hear something, but apparently he wouldn´t put this in writing. The cambelt tensioner has been changed but it made no difference whatsoever.
Now what makes so pi...d in this case is that Subaru used to be fair and correct the problems with the classic shape, but when it comes to the new models they don´t seem to care. Or at least they don´t know what to do.
All I know is that I have a car that makes a hell of a knocking noise for the first 5-7 minutes after start up and Subaru says that there is no problem. Must state that the engine uses no oil at all and sounds sweet when warm. But my main concern is cylinder ovality over the years. I plan to keep my car for a very long time.
Perhaps they installed the new cambelt tensioner wrong, as I´ve read on here that the correct way to install them is backwards??
Claus
Trending Topics
30 May 2003, 11:02 PM
#8
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Land without a governement...LOL
Posts: 609
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A while ago I had a talk with some Subaru Engineers, Belgian and Japanese. I met them by luck on a tank stop on the E42 direction of Ardennes in Belgium.
They were very interested in my car, MY00, and the mods I did.
Not engine mods but just a set of 17" and some small cosmetic details.
We had a drink and a talk in the restaurant and the reason they were there was that Subaru Luxembourg had several cars on warranty with blew up or almost blew up engines.
It seems that most of the buyers do not take it serious with the running in periods and terms of service.
Going flat out in the Ardennes is not difficult and riding the *** of tour car also. There were several cars with totally burnt oil pipes (no cool off when driving hard), and damaged internals when using poor fuel, also cracked brake discs and worn drivetrain components because of enthousiastic off roading and riding lide madmen.
It still is a road car and deserves to be treated that way, when you drive hard, let it cool off and, because its a high performance car, service is as important as good fuel and oil.
The Japanese engineers told me that most of the damage was done because drivers didn't care about it because : "It has warranty"
Well, I can tell you that when they take one drop of oil, they can see the condition of your engine and tell you what went wrong and how...
About engine noise, I recently placed an oil cooler. That is one of the first upgrades they perform in Japan, at least, they told me. And my engine makes a little more noise than before...
But, after having serious temperatures on track (125° C), It is now dropped to 95° C on this wheather (25° c).
Most of the Subaru drivers want first of all more power, but they can't even drive a 2.0 litre 115ps sport properly.
I don't discuss the engine noise with you but I think you get my point here. I was just lucky to meet those guys, on a Saturday afternoon, (even engineers make trips with Subaru's !!) but I learned a lot from them.
I also have used mu warranty once, because the Lambe sensor was broken but thats all, and I se my Subaru VERY HARD, so when it goes, it goes, because now my warranty is over.
Subar Belgium is SH*T, but luckuly I have a VERY GOOD dealer whoo happens to be an expert engine builder and mapper also...
So when you have troubles, mail me for the adress, he's a guy that has arranged many problems that were warranty related and solved many problems that Subaru don't wanna touch...
Creepy
They were very interested in my car, MY00, and the mods I did.
Not engine mods but just a set of 17" and some small cosmetic details.
We had a drink and a talk in the restaurant and the reason they were there was that Subaru Luxembourg had several cars on warranty with blew up or almost blew up engines.
It seems that most of the buyers do not take it serious with the running in periods and terms of service.
Going flat out in the Ardennes is not difficult and riding the *** of tour car also. There were several cars with totally burnt oil pipes (no cool off when driving hard), and damaged internals when using poor fuel, also cracked brake discs and worn drivetrain components because of enthousiastic off roading and riding lide madmen.
It still is a road car and deserves to be treated that way, when you drive hard, let it cool off and, because its a high performance car, service is as important as good fuel and oil.
The Japanese engineers told me that most of the damage was done because drivers didn't care about it because : "It has warranty"
Well, I can tell you that when they take one drop of oil, they can see the condition of your engine and tell you what went wrong and how...
About engine noise, I recently placed an oil cooler. That is one of the first upgrades they perform in Japan, at least, they told me. And my engine makes a little more noise than before...
But, after having serious temperatures on track (125° C), It is now dropped to 95° C on this wheather (25° c).
Most of the Subaru drivers want first of all more power, but they can't even drive a 2.0 litre 115ps sport properly.
I don't discuss the engine noise with you but I think you get my point here. I was just lucky to meet those guys, on a Saturday afternoon, (even engineers make trips with Subaru's !!) but I learned a lot from them.
I also have used mu warranty once, because the Lambe sensor was broken but thats all, and I se my Subaru VERY HARD, so when it goes, it goes, because now my warranty is over.
Subar Belgium is SH*T, but luckuly I have a VERY GOOD dealer whoo happens to be an expert engine builder and mapper also...
So when you have troubles, mail me for the adress, he's a guy that has arranged many problems that were warranty related and solved many problems that Subaru don't wanna touch...
Creepy
30 May 2003, 11:25 PM
#9
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Denmark
Posts: 292
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Creepy
My car was run in according to owners manual and all services are OK. I´m a former racechampion so I know the importance of mechanical sympathy; I never use high revs before the engine is properly warmed up and also remember to let it cool after a spirited run. I use Castrol RS in the engine and the fuel is always 98 octane.
Can you specify what you mean Belgium dealers are S..T? or should I mail you? Problem is I don´t know how to find your mail address.
Cheers
Claus
My car was run in according to owners manual and all services are OK. I´m a former racechampion so I know the importance of mechanical sympathy; I never use high revs before the engine is properly warmed up and also remember to let it cool after a spirited run. I use Castrol RS in the engine and the fuel is always 98 octane.
Can you specify what you mean Belgium dealers are S..T? or should I mail you? Problem is I don´t know how to find your mail address.
Cheers
Claus
30 May 2003, 11:30 PM
#10
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Land without a governement...LOL
Posts: 609
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I mean Subaru Belgium in Vilvoorde is Sh*t.
I don't like the attitude they have but the real problem is the dealer, he is always f*ck*d because he sits between the two sides and has to solve the problem.
Oh, and I give you my mail...
Creepy
I don't like the attitude they have but the real problem is the dealer, he is always f*ck*d because he sits between the two sides and has to solve the problem.
Oh, and I give you my mail...
Creepy
31 May 2003, 04:08 PM
#12
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 3,409
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
agree with leslie i doubt you will get anywhere as they have said there has been no possibility on 01my cars so they must have spent a load of money trying to sort it out and looks like they did.
i think they hve been quite fair in what they say
i think they hve been quite fair in what they say
02 June 2003, 10:14 AM
#14
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Denmark
Posts: 292
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Leslie and Soobyboy
I just don´t get you guys. I bought a product from new. It is malfunctioning cos it has a noise that should not be there. And the noise is getting louder. Fact. Subaru tried to correct it. They didn´t succeed. Now, remember that my dealer recognized the noise as piston slap. They changed the cambelt tensioner but that didn´t cure the noise at all. And so they choose the easy way out: Nothing more we can do for you sir, there is no malfunction here.
Now I think that I´m in my good right to try and find a reason for this mess. And my best guess is ofcourse: money. Meaning that Subaru is trying to avoid this problem as easy and cheap as possible by saying that there is no problem with my car. I´m pretty sure that if you guys had a listen to my car in the morning, you would agree that something surely is wrong. No special skills are needed here. Even my 5 year old daughter asks what is wrong with the car daddy.
Thanks to everone for participating in my problem.
Claus
I just don´t get you guys. I bought a product from new. It is malfunctioning cos it has a noise that should not be there. And the noise is getting louder. Fact. Subaru tried to correct it. They didn´t succeed. Now, remember that my dealer recognized the noise as piston slap. They changed the cambelt tensioner but that didn´t cure the noise at all. And so they choose the easy way out: Nothing more we can do for you sir, there is no malfunction here.
Now I think that I´m in my good right to try and find a reason for this mess. And my best guess is ofcourse: money. Meaning that Subaru is trying to avoid this problem as easy and cheap as possible by saying that there is no problem with my car. I´m pretty sure that if you guys had a listen to my car in the morning, you would agree that something surely is wrong. No special skills are needed here. Even my 5 year old daughter asks what is wrong with the car daddy.
Thanks to everone for participating in my problem.
Claus
02 June 2003, 11:09 AM
#15
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 39,877
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My point was that I was surprised that you accused the engineers of duplicity, not that there was nothing wrong with your car. As an engineer I would not be too happy at being accused of deliberate lies when I had given an honest opinion on the condition of the engine.
Les
Les
02 June 2003, 12:28 PM
#16
Scooby Regular
Join Date: May 2000
Location: MY00,MY01,RX-8, Alfa 147 & Focus ST :-)
Posts: 10,371
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Claus
Why not make a sound recording when the engine is cold and post it up? I'm sure people would be interested to hear it (as an MY01 owner I would).
Have you fitted a knocklink sensor or something similar, surely this would show up if you had a problem?
Chris
Why not make a sound recording when the engine is cold and post it up? I'm sure people would be interested to hear it (as an MY01 owner I would).
Have you fitted a knocklink sensor or something similar, surely this would show up if you had a problem?
Chris
04 June 2003, 05:17 PM
#17
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Denmark
Posts: 292
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi
I don´t know if the guy from the importer who listened to my car was an engineer butI do know that he didn´t give his honest opinion
(see my comments that he admitted that he could hear something, whatever that was) but when he came back home behind his desk and put my case down on paper he didn´t remember about it. nd surely he was not treating me with honesty: why did he have to rev the engine from cold? to make it warm up quicker and to disguise the noise which is only there with low rpm´s (idle and up to approx. 1300-1500) and he already should know about that since I told my dealer earlier.
Unfortunately I don´t have any equipment to record and post on the net, but the noise is almost similar to piston slap (the diagnose of my dealer) goes away with rpm´s and when the engine is warm (10 min. of driving). The best way to hear it is from inside the car. It´s a dok-dok noise which rises with rpm´s but only to the mentioned 1300-1500 like, and then it drownes in the other engine noises.
Could also be the cambelt tensioner noise, but this one is already changed?? but maybe not correctly installed.
Claus
I don´t know if the guy from the importer who listened to my car was an engineer butI do know that he didn´t give his honest opinion
(see my comments that he admitted that he could hear something, whatever that was) but when he came back home behind his desk and put my case down on paper he didn´t remember about it. nd surely he was not treating me with honesty: why did he have to rev the engine from cold? to make it warm up quicker and to disguise the noise which is only there with low rpm´s (idle and up to approx. 1300-1500) and he already should know about that since I told my dealer earlier.
Unfortunately I don´t have any equipment to record and post on the net, but the noise is almost similar to piston slap (the diagnose of my dealer) goes away with rpm´s and when the engine is warm (10 min. of driving). The best way to hear it is from inside the car. It´s a dok-dok noise which rises with rpm´s but only to the mentioned 1300-1500 like, and then it drownes in the other engine noises.
Could also be the cambelt tensioner noise, but this one is already changed?? but maybe not correctly installed.
Claus
04 June 2003, 05:59 PM
#18
My 99 has a similar problem to yours, had it in for the 45000 service cam belt ect, and asked the garage to listen to a noise that had developed, its there at idle sounds like bok-bok-bok. You can here it from inside the car as well, garage was unable to detect the fault so investigated this myself.
Noise is coming from the front of the engine near number 2 cylinder, tends to go away when revved up, but comes back when engine aproches idle. I used a long quater inch extention bar and placed it ontop of block on cylinder 2, the other end you put in your ear,(crude form of stethoscope) this i then compared with cylinder 3 same normal engine noises.
However if i placed the the bar on the two top bolts of the timing case cover, RHS of engine when viewed from the front, this noise could clearly be heard, Bok-Bok-Bok. There are two other bolts on the block below this, these hold the cam belt tensioner onto the front of the block, this could be clearly heard there also, armed with this information i went back to the garage and this was confirmed as cam belt tensioner or water pump, car in this week to be replaced on extended warranty. Hope this fixes it.
Don
Noise is coming from the front of the engine near number 2 cylinder, tends to go away when revved up, but comes back when engine aproches idle. I used a long quater inch extention bar and placed it ontop of block on cylinder 2, the other end you put in your ear,(crude form of stethoscope) this i then compared with cylinder 3 same normal engine noises.
However if i placed the the bar on the two top bolts of the timing case cover, RHS of engine when viewed from the front, this noise could clearly be heard, Bok-Bok-Bok. There are two other bolts on the block below this, these hold the cam belt tensioner onto the front of the block, this could be clearly heard there also, armed with this information i went back to the garage and this was confirmed as cam belt tensioner or water pump, car in this week to be replaced on extended warranty. Hope this fixes it.
Don
04 June 2003, 06:04 PM
#19
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Denmark
Posts: 292
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh I forgot..
No I don´t have a knock link installed. My car is only 7 months old and has 14000 miles on it so I have made no mods engine wise.
Only a decat exhaust and ecutek are planned but I have Eibach´s, Superleggera´s and MRO frontspoiler on it. I also plan on upgrading the brakes to standard size grooved discs and better pads.
Did I forget to mention that I love my car and that it gives me the best ride I´ve ever had?, and thats not a few.
Claus
No I don´t have a knock link installed. My car is only 7 months old and has 14000 miles on it so I have made no mods engine wise.
Only a decat exhaust and ecutek are planned but I have Eibach´s, Superleggera´s and MRO frontspoiler on it. I also plan on upgrading the brakes to standard size grooved discs and better pads.
Did I forget to mention that I love my car and that it gives me the best ride I´ve ever had?, and thats not a few.
Claus
05 June 2003, 10:22 AM
#20
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 39,877
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Maybe they did a poor job on the cam belt tensioner or even that the replacement one is defective. I understand that the fitting of the later tensioner, ie compressing the spring, is different to the original and that incorrect procedure can damage the tensioner.
Or even as Eprom says,it could be the water pump. Hope they will sort it out for you Claus.
Les
Or even as Eprom says,it could be the water pump. Hope they will sort it out for you Claus.
Les
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Wingnuttzz
Member's Gallery
30
26 April 2022 11:15 PM
Danny0608
Subaru Parts
0
12 September 2015 02:59 PM
