ATD Scooby at Prodrive - EXCLUSIVE FIRST DRIVE!
14 January 2003, 02:45 PM
#1
EXCLUSIVE FIRST DRIVE for ScoobyNet! 
Hi All
The clever boffins at Prodrive have been very busy of late. They've developed a stunning new system called ATD (Automatic Torque Distribution) and I was honoured to be invited to shake it down today. I thought you would want to hear about it as (for performance car drivers) it has to be the most exciting technology to be developed for some time.
The system is similar in essence to the complex array of hydraulic diffs, g-sensors and computers that guide the newest WRC cars through the twisty stages of the World Rally Championship, except that it has been programmed for a slightly different reason.
In a rally car, the software is designed to make the car very unstable, so a driver with world-class levels of skill an experience can command it to do exactly what he wants at any moment. What the guys at Prodrive have been able to do is transfer important parts of that driver skill and place it in the car itself! This basically means that the car recognises what the driver's inputs are telling it they want the car to do, and just kind of makes the car do it!
I have to admit to being a little nervous as I took control of this one-off prototype WRX fitted with the ATD system. I absolutely HATE driver aid systems that take control of your commands and say "Nah! you didn't REALLY want to do that, so .. tell you what.. I'll take it from here shall I?", so I wasn't actually looking forward to it that much either.
We set off down the first short straight of Prodrive's high speed test circuit at Fen End towards the third / fourth gear sweeping right hander. Damien Harty (Chief Engineer) tells me in a calm and slightly bored sounding voice "OK, just stick it in here and then just give it death if you like!". The complete absence of fear or even intrigue was a little unsettling.. he is COMPLETELY confident in the car, so doesn't even need to get comfortable with the driver.
So I thought.. "OK then! I bloody will!"
Up to the point of hitting the gas, the car felt like any other stable WRX, slight understeer, feathering the steering to keep it on track so the front didn't start drifting wide, but then... OH MY GOD! I hit the gas and the whole system lit up and changed the car in to a hairy chested animal that purposefully and sure-footedly spun up the rear wheels and stuck itself sideways.. not too much, not too little just as much as the amount of steering I'd put in would tell the system I wanted. It was like the car went from Driving Miss Daisy to Marcus Gronholm in a split second - at over 80MPH on slippy wet tarmac.
But the most amazing thing, was that there was no shock or sudden lurch to put the wind up you, it just kind of did it!! Very smooth, and very precise.
The instant reaction was to wind off a little steering and start considering opposite lock in order to balance the slide, but the more steering I wound off, the more the system decided I didn't want to be as sideways and simple moved power around and opened / tightened diffs as it's brain saw fit and just settled the car a little less sideways. So I kept the power on and eventually straightened the wheel out at over 90MPH by now, about 3 feet away from the outside edge of the exit of the bend and the car smoothly settled into the job of reaching the next braking point as soon as humanly possible. Staggering!
How many times have you been going round a roundabout in your scoob and thought "I wish I could just give it a bit of throttle and the back would step out, then I could just guide it round on the steering"? Well the problem is that AWD cars spin up the front wheels usually prior to the rear so you have to be incredibly aggressive to get the thing sideways. Rear wheel drive is what you want for those situations. But then... there's something really nice about knowing that, in a scoob you can usually just get back on the gas when things are going wrong and it will tuck itself back in.. can't do that in a RWD car. This system is the very best of all worlds. You can drive it on the power like a RWD car and you can enjoy the traction, stability and safety of AWD at the same time.
Not good enough for you? After I'd got a bit more used to the system and was happily throwing it round the wet circuit I realised that it was so incredibly good that I could go in to corners with absolutely any angle of sideways action I wanted, safe in the knowledge that if it all gets a bit "brown trousers" I could just hit the gas and steer where I wanted the car to go. But I was starting to think that the system would bore me after a while as there are just NO surprises and nothing you have to deal with as a driver. So Damien throws the “scary switch”. Switching the system to setting 3 (instead of 2 - which we had been on) changes the car in a COMPLETELY different animal. Now it becomes TOTALLY driver controlled but just allows controllable power oversteer - just like a RWD car and helps you out when you want to do things like change direction quickly, it basically sets all the diffs in real time to give you exactly what you're looking for.
Damien thinks one of the best parts of the system is that it is feasible that you will be able to make your own maps for the handling, or buy "track day" maps, etc, etc so you can make the one car behave in any number of different ways, and you can make it do anything you want based on your own style of driving.
The system is designed for 2 main groups of people. People who love the powerful abilities of AWD, but dream about having RWD handling again, and people who want to drive like Colin McRae but can't be bothered with all that “learning to drive” rubbish!!!! (those two groups cover just about everyone here I reckon!)
The system is not immediately planned for release, prodrive are talking to a number of companies who are very interested in the system, so it could be something we see on road cars in the near future.
We're very fortunate to have been able to a) drive the car, and b) release the information publicly first here on scoobynet, so feel free to ask any questions and I'll answer what I can, and seek answers to the rest.
All the best
Simon
Edited as forgot to add "Exclusive First Drive" bit!
[Edited by webmaster - 1/14/2003 3:30:36 PM]
Hi All
The clever boffins at Prodrive have been very busy of late. They've developed a stunning new system called ATD (Automatic Torque Distribution) and I was honoured to be invited to shake it down today. I thought you would want to hear about it as (for performance car drivers) it has to be the most exciting technology to be developed for some time.
The system is similar in essence to the complex array of hydraulic diffs, g-sensors and computers that guide the newest WRC cars through the twisty stages of the World Rally Championship, except that it has been programmed for a slightly different reason.
In a rally car, the software is designed to make the car very unstable, so a driver with world-class levels of skill an experience can command it to do exactly what he wants at any moment. What the guys at Prodrive have been able to do is transfer important parts of that driver skill and place it in the car itself! This basically means that the car recognises what the driver's inputs are telling it they want the car to do, and just kind of makes the car do it!
I have to admit to being a little nervous as I took control of this one-off prototype WRX fitted with the ATD system. I absolutely HATE driver aid systems that take control of your commands and say "Nah! you didn't REALLY want to do that, so .. tell you what.. I'll take it from here shall I?", so I wasn't actually looking forward to it that much either.
We set off down the first short straight of Prodrive's high speed test circuit at Fen End towards the third / fourth gear sweeping right hander. Damien Harty (Chief Engineer) tells me in a calm and slightly bored sounding voice "OK, just stick it in here and then just give it death if you like!". The complete absence of fear or even intrigue was a little unsettling.. he is COMPLETELY confident in the car, so doesn't even need to get comfortable with the driver.
So I thought.. "OK then! I bloody will!"
Up to the point of hitting the gas, the car felt like any other stable WRX, slight understeer, feathering the steering to keep it on track so the front didn't start drifting wide, but then... OH MY GOD! I hit the gas and the whole system lit up and changed the car in to a hairy chested animal that purposefully and sure-footedly spun up the rear wheels and stuck itself sideways.. not too much, not too little just as much as the amount of steering I'd put in would tell the system I wanted. It was like the car went from Driving Miss Daisy to Marcus Gronholm in a split second - at over 80MPH on slippy wet tarmac.
But the most amazing thing, was that there was no shock or sudden lurch to put the wind up you, it just kind of did it!! Very smooth, and very precise.
The instant reaction was to wind off a little steering and start considering opposite lock in order to balance the slide, but the more steering I wound off, the more the system decided I didn't want to be as sideways and simple moved power around and opened / tightened diffs as it's brain saw fit and just settled the car a little less sideways. So I kept the power on and eventually straightened the wheel out at over 90MPH by now, about 3 feet away from the outside edge of the exit of the bend and the car smoothly settled into the job of reaching the next braking point as soon as humanly possible. Staggering!
How many times have you been going round a roundabout in your scoob and thought "I wish I could just give it a bit of throttle and the back would step out, then I could just guide it round on the steering"? Well the problem is that AWD cars spin up the front wheels usually prior to the rear so you have to be incredibly aggressive to get the thing sideways. Rear wheel drive is what you want for those situations. But then... there's something really nice about knowing that, in a scoob you can usually just get back on the gas when things are going wrong and it will tuck itself back in.. can't do that in a RWD car. This system is the very best of all worlds. You can drive it on the power like a RWD car and you can enjoy the traction, stability and safety of AWD at the same time.
Not good enough for you? After I'd got a bit more used to the system and was happily throwing it round the wet circuit I realised that it was so incredibly good that I could go in to corners with absolutely any angle of sideways action I wanted, safe in the knowledge that if it all gets a bit "brown trousers" I could just hit the gas and steer where I wanted the car to go. But I was starting to think that the system would bore me after a while as there are just NO surprises and nothing you have to deal with as a driver. So Damien throws the “scary switch”. Switching the system to setting 3 (instead of 2 - which we had been on) changes the car in a COMPLETELY different animal. Now it becomes TOTALLY driver controlled but just allows controllable power oversteer - just like a RWD car and helps you out when you want to do things like change direction quickly, it basically sets all the diffs in real time to give you exactly what you're looking for.
Damien thinks one of the best parts of the system is that it is feasible that you will be able to make your own maps for the handling, or buy "track day" maps, etc, etc so you can make the one car behave in any number of different ways, and you can make it do anything you want based on your own style of driving.
The system is designed for 2 main groups of people. People who love the powerful abilities of AWD, but dream about having RWD handling again, and people who want to drive like Colin McRae but can't be bothered with all that “learning to drive” rubbish!!!! (those two groups cover just about everyone here I reckon!
)The system is not immediately planned for release, prodrive are talking to a number of companies who are very interested in the system, so it could be something we see on road cars in the near future.
We're very fortunate to have been able to a) drive the car, and b) release the information publicly first here on scoobynet, so feel free to ask any questions and I'll answer what I can, and seek answers to the rest.
All the best
Simon
Edited as forgot to add "Exclusive First Drive" bit!
[Edited by webmaster - 1/14/2003 3:30:36 PM]
14 January 2003, 03:11 PM
#2
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Did ProDrive supply donuts for you ?
Sounds pretty slick, and I guess it is more of a system than some electronic diffs, some steering angle/wheel speed and an ECU.
Cheers
Ian
Sounds pretty slick, and I guess it is more of a system than some electronic diffs, some steering angle/wheel speed and an ECU.
Cheers
Ian
14 January 2003, 03:14 PM
#3
Hi Ian
VERY nice to hear from you. Yeah, the system as substantially more advanced than that. There are enough innertia packs in the car to give it a clear understanding of what the car is doing, and has maps of what the car SHOULD be doing, etc.
The thing I found most amazing is that you can fit all sorts of odd tyres to it and it doesn't change the basic handling of the car.
Cheers
Simon
Oops... edited to change from "does change the basic handling" to "doesn't change the basic handling"
[Edited by webmaster - 1/14/2003 5:12:09 PM]
VERY nice to hear from you. Yeah, the system as substantially more advanced than that. There are enough innertia packs in the car to give it a clear understanding of what the car is doing, and has maps of what the car SHOULD be doing, etc.
The thing I found most amazing is that you can fit all sorts of odd tyres to it and it doesn't change the basic handling of the car.
Cheers
Simon
Oops... edited to change from "does change the basic handling" to "doesn't change the basic handling"
[Edited by webmaster - 1/14/2003 5:12:09 PM]
14 January 2003, 03:31 PM
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Bloody hell - fantastic! Sign me up now!
I had no clue as to what this thread was about, so came in wondering and am flabberghasted.
What sort of Impreza was this fitted to - you mention WRX? Do you mean WRC, or just plain old WRX?
This must be seriously clever to work out what you want to do when, and how to achieve it. Cool factor of several million
I had no clue as to what this thread was about, so came in wondering and am flabberghasted.
What sort of Impreza was this fitted to - you mention WRX? Do you mean WRC, or just plain old WRX?
This must be seriously clever to work out what you want to do when, and how to achieve it. Cool factor of several million
14 January 2003, 03:34 PM
#6
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YOU LUCKY SOD!!!!!!!!
The systems sound almost to good to be true!
So you can just be driving along and when you fancy a bit of fun you can just flick a switch (just like the 'Stage' one in WRC cars?) or is the system on all the time but monitors your actions (steering, braking etc,) and then adapts?
The systems sound almost to good to be true!
So you can just be driving along and when you fancy a bit of fun you can just flick a switch (just like the 'Stage' one in WRC cars?) or is the system on all the time but monitors your actions (steering, braking etc,) and then adapts?
14 January 2003, 03:34 PM
#7
Hi Bajie
Believe it or not, it really IS that good.
I simulated exactly the panic lift off situation that you described and all that happened was that the car tightened it's line a bit and just tucked in. It just tucks in rather than oversteers.
Why? Aparently, firstly the car recognises when this has happened and opens all the diff up to make it the most stable running gear situation possible and in addition, the car is able to run a suspension set-up that is more prone to understeer as the diffs give you all the oversteer you want regardless of the set-up.
This makes it an incredibly safe car to drive as well as being HUGE fun when you're in the mood. Another paradox of conventional cars.
I even tried sticking it in to a slalom style tank slapper and whilst I was on the gas and turning the steering wheel in the direction I wanted it flick, it would obey my every whim flicking it's tail out in a continuing scandinavian flick.. as soon as I did something that wasn't a definite command to keep doing it (like lifted off the gas hesitantly or started to waggle the steering a bit as though panicing, it opened everything up and brought the car in to a stable steady state again.
Believe it or not, it really IS that good.
I simulated exactly the panic lift off situation that you described and all that happened was that the car tightened it's line a bit and just tucked in. It just tucks in rather than oversteers.
Why? Aparently, firstly the car recognises when this has happened and opens all the diff up to make it the most stable running gear situation possible and in addition, the car is able to run a suspension set-up that is more prone to understeer as the diffs give you all the oversteer you want regardless of the set-up.
This makes it an incredibly safe car to drive as well as being HUGE fun when you're in the mood. Another paradox of conventional cars.
I even tried sticking it in to a slalom style tank slapper and whilst I was on the gas and turning the steering wheel in the direction I wanted it flick, it would obey my every whim flicking it's tail out in a continuing scandinavian flick.. as soon as I did something that wasn't a definite command to keep doing it (like lifted off the gas hesitantly or started to waggle the steering a bit as though panicing, it opened everything up and brought the car in to a stable steady state again.
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14 January 2003, 03:40 PM
#9
Hi
This was a WRX, not WRC. Just a standard road car, with the system fitted to it.
The system is on all the time, although you COULD turn it off / set it to other settings on the test car I drove today.
But the main thing is, the system COULD be installed with 1 setting, with a number of switchable settings, or even with a Floppy drive / CD drive in the car where you can buy maps and load them on to the car for snow driving / off road / track driving / safe / fun, etc, etc, etc. Possibly even an interactive control panel that lets you alter the cars characteristics at any time.
The possibilities are endless.
all the best
Simon
This was a WRX, not WRC. Just a standard road car, with the system fitted to it.
The system is on all the time, although you COULD turn it off / set it to other settings on the test car I drove today.
But the main thing is, the system COULD be installed with 1 setting, with a number of switchable settings, or even with a Floppy drive / CD drive in the car where you can buy maps and load them on to the car for snow driving / off road / track driving / safe / fun, etc, etc, etc. Possibly even an interactive control panel that lets you alter the cars characteristics at any time.
The possibilities are endless.
all the best
Simon
14 January 2003, 03:43 PM
#11
unfortunately I can't say who else is interested, but I really hope subaru make use of it. Just in-case people think that's a hint.. I really have no idea whether subaru are even considering it.
14 January 2003, 03:49 PM
#14
Scooby Regular
Sounds superb 
They dont fancy doing something similar for my MR2 do they
Any ideas when this sort of thing is being released then, assuming the interested parties like it enough? Any costs mentioned?
In theory it should reduce insurance costs as well.
They dont fancy doing something similar for my MR2 do they Any ideas when this sort of thing is being released then, assuming the interested parties like it enough? Any costs mentioned?
In theory it should reduce insurance costs as well.
14 January 2003, 03:53 PM
#16
14 January 2003, 03:53 PM
#17
aparently the system could be applied to FWD and RWD cars, although the major benefits are with AWD cars as you have all possibilities of torque distribution and far more control.
Time to release, I think that all depends on the number of companies that want to use it and the qty's they want to produce. This obviously also affects the cost. Although as an idea they say there is less equipment involved than on the EVO7 "it's just cleverer" so it must be an affordable thing to fit to a car.
Damien can foresee a possibility in the right circumstances that it could be an optional extra for around £1500 (or that kind of figure). Obviously, don't hold him to that, he just came up with something to give an idea of the range.
cheers
Simon
PS. I've changed the thread title - don't tell anyone that's possible!
Time to release, I think that all depends on the number of companies that want to use it and the qty's they want to produce. This obviously also affects the cost. Although as an idea they say there is less equipment involved than on the EVO7 "it's just cleverer" so it must be an affordable thing to fit to a car.
Damien can foresee a possibility in the right circumstances that it could be an optional extra for around £1500 (or that kind of figure). Obviously, don't hold him to that, he just came up with something to give an idea of the range.
cheers
Simon
PS. I've changed the thread title - don't tell anyone that's possible!
14 January 2003, 03:56 PM
#20
wurzel
at the minute it's just a development system. And it just happened to be fitted to a Scooby. It will take a manufacturer to commit to using the system in their range of cars for it to become something that is available to us all.
But for the kind of figure Damien was talking about, I can't see many people NOT getting the system fitted. You'd only have to drive it for 5 minutes and you'd be sold.
at the minute it's just a development system. And it just happened to be fitted to a Scooby. It will take a manufacturer to commit to using the system in their range of cars for it to become something that is available to us all.
But for the kind of figure Damien was talking about, I can't see many people NOT getting the system fitted. You'd only have to drive it for 5 minutes and you'd be sold.
14 January 2003, 03:57 PM
#21
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It sounds fantastic!
Great write up by the way Simon. Can you tell us who else was invited. It would be interesting to find out what other people thought of the system
Great write up by the way Simon. Can you tell us who else was invited. It would be interesting to find out what other people thought of the system
14 January 2003, 04:06 PM
#22
I am proud to say, only I was invited today, so ScoobyNet has the Exclusive.
There will be more news to follow however, hopefully later in the week.
all the best
Simon
There will be more news to follow however, hopefully later in the week.
all the best
Simon
14 January 2003, 04:13 PM
#24
Scooby Regular
Simon,
Is this a computer-driven thing or does it involve major changes to the drivetrain/diff setup?
Obviously, not looking for Prodrive secrets but is it something that could be added to cars easily?
Stefan
Is this a computer-driven thing or does it involve major changes to the drivetrain/diff setup?
Obviously, not looking for Prodrive secrets but is it something that could be added to cars easily?
Stefan
14 January 2003, 04:15 PM
#25
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were you allowed to write this simon?
You mention fitting as standard and g sensors.
surely to control the diffs we must be talking about continuously variable 0-100% torque control on each of the four wheels? this would require active diffs left to right as well as front to rear, thats three hydraulic diffs.
Cant see that being simpler than the evos set up.
dont suppose you could speak to prodrive, ask if they have patented the system, and get the application number? then all my questions, and probably most of everyone elses would be answered.
Cant see it not being patented if they intend to sell it.
btw in autocar some time back there was talk of each of the wheels of a prodrive test car being independently controlled. they talked of this car being steerable without any inputs to the steering wheel at all. am guessing its the same system.
You mention fitting as standard and g sensors.
surely to control the diffs we must be talking about continuously variable 0-100% torque control on each of the four wheels? this would require active diffs left to right as well as front to rear, thats three hydraulic diffs.
Cant see that being simpler than the evos set up.
dont suppose you could speak to prodrive, ask if they have patented the system, and get the application number? then all my questions, and probably most of everyone elses would be answered.
Cant see it not being patented if they intend to sell it.
btw in autocar some time back there was talk of each of the wheels of a prodrive test car being independently controlled. they talked of this car being steerable without any inputs to the steering wheel at all. am guessing its the same system.
14 January 2003, 04:16 PM
#26
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So is it an ESP type system touching individual brakes, or a torque biasing system sending torque around?
(I'm gonna get flamed here, I can feel it) but it sounds like (all be it with "levels") like the haldex on the VAG stuff. EG with the haldex you can load up the suspension, give it full throttle and the rear will gently push wide, wheels will spin (as they lose traction) and it puts more power back at the front, thus making opposite lock correction easy or the rear held out as required.
Genuine question.
(I'm gonna get flamed here, I can feel it) but it sounds like (all be it with "levels") like the haldex on the VAG stuff. EG with the haldex you can load up the suspension, give it full throttle and the rear will gently push wide, wheels will spin (as they lose traction) and it puts more power back at the front, thus making opposite lock correction easy or the rear held out as required.
Genuine question.
14 January 2003, 04:19 PM
#27
14 January 2003, 04:39 PM
#28
Davyboy
The system could be programmed to make a car be faster, or be more sideways, or better at donuts, or safer, etc, etc. You can set it to keep the benefits of AWD, but then still have the benefits of RWD, and FWD, so all round it can handle however you want it to.
Adam You crack me up.
You've made a lot of sweeping assumptions. Not sure if any of them are accurate I'm affraid. Don't know what extensive experience Damien used to decide that there is more equipment in an EVO7 than there is in this system, etc, etc.
Is there anything you would like to know about the system? If so, feel free to ask it in this thread and I'll try my best to answer you.
Hi ianc
It's torque based, like a WRC car, moving torque between the wheels.
I think the haldex (if it's the system I'm thinking of) is a far simpler system which has been around for a number of years. This is really traction based only. When wheels lose traction, the other wheels are given more power.
This system might deliberately lose traction in one of the wheels in order to generate a certain yaw of the car, etc.
Hi Tony
It's not the same system. Although I can't find any info on it. If anyone knows anything about the DCCD-A I'd be really interested. JF made a likely suggestion that it simply opens the diff when at low speeds to stop the clonking sound!
all the best
Simon
All the best
Simon
The system could be programmed to make a car be faster, or be more sideways, or better at donuts, or safer, etc, etc. You can set it to keep the benefits of AWD, but then still have the benefits of RWD, and FWD, so all round it can handle however you want it to.
Adam
You crack me up.You've made a lot of sweeping assumptions. Not sure if any of them are accurate I'm affraid. Don't know what extensive experience Damien used to decide that there is more equipment in an EVO7 than there is in this system, etc, etc.
Is there anything you would like to know about the system? If so, feel free to ask it in this thread and I'll try my best to answer you.
Hi ianc
It's torque based, like a WRC car, moving torque between the wheels.
I think the haldex (if it's the system I'm thinking of) is a far simpler system which has been around for a number of years. This is really traction based only. When wheels lose traction, the other wheels are given more power.
This system might deliberately lose traction in one of the wheels in order to generate a certain yaw of the car, etc.
Hi Tony
It's not the same system. Although I can't find any info on it. If anyone knows anything about the DCCD-A I'd be really interested. JF made a likely suggestion that it simply opens the diff when at low speeds to stop the clonking sound!
all the best
Simon
All the best
Simon
14 January 2003, 04:40 PM
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Does this differ greatly to the system that Lotus developed a while back that could control (amongst other things) the body roll - it could keep the car completely flat or even roll the opposite way to normal?