johnfelstead

Don has some places left for sunday at MIRA.

I am going in my Sport, it would be good if a Turbo could come along too.

Anyone up for it?

SDB

Go on then.. you've talked me into it

Danny Fisher

Sorry about the ignorance, but where is MIRA.

Thanks Dan

Blow Dog

erm, sounds like something i'd like to get involved in.....
whats it all about?

cem

SDB

AAaaahhhh.... my favorite subject!!

MIRA is quite possibly one of the best places on earth. It is just about my favorite anyway. If you like driving and want a great place to experiment, learn and test in safety, then this is the place.

If you want to improve your ability to hold YOUR car on the absolute limit and in COMPLETE control, then Don Palmer's 'Wetter the Better' course is the one for you.

MIRA is near Nuneaton (on the A5 between the M1 and Birmingham).

The facility is a 'Wet Handling' facility used by most of the top manufacturers to test their car's adverse weather condition limit handling. The wet conditions are created by water jets at the sides of the roads which constantly spray's water over the road to create a uniform level of grip (or lack of!!).

There is a concentric circles section (like a HUGE round-about) with an inner lane which (when wet) is the same slippyness as wet ice! and an outer lane which is about twice as grippy but still much slippier than you would find on almost any road condition. This area is used for tuition and practicing new techniques throughout the day. I can tell you that holding a smooth complete 4WD powerslide round this section is one of the best experiences you can have in you car. And the lack of grip means minimal tyre wear, and the lack of hard objects means lack of panel damage when you spin (as everyone does about 50 times!!)

The other part of the facility is wet handling circuit, which is again, completely wet at all times. The surface here is like a fairly slippy road. This is used for putting the techniques learned on the circles into practice.

The best thing about the course is that, unlike most courses, you need never be bored waiting around for your turn. You have a bit of tuition with Don or Colin (both top blokes - Colin is frighteningly intuitive, and has told me things about my driving that even I didn't know!!!), and then you go out on the track and do some laps, stop for a bit have a chat and bounce ideas around, jump in someone elses car for a couple of laps, go out again, have bit more tuition.

I have been there about 10 times or something now and have been completely satisfied and mentally and physically exhausted every time. For some reason, the people who attend are almost always the soundest bunch of people. There have been a couple of excetions, but aren't there always?

Safety and organisation is very very prevalent and any stupidity on the track would (apparantly) result in exclusion, so every is extremely courteous. The track side is not for racing each other but for practicing the techniques you perfect on the circles.

I am a capable and experience driver. When I first went on this course it was to get some experience of 4WD which I was not used to. I have always loved RWD and when I bought the scooby I wanted to know how to drive it. I was astounded how quick I got to grips with the 4WD characteristics and can honestly say this was due to the structure of the course in terms of the type of tuition and the layout of the facility.

It is a fabulous day out.. I would strongly recommend it!

Cheers

Simon

PS... Scoobies kick **** round there too


[This message has been edited by Simon de Banke (edited 10-01-2000).]

Don Palmer

Isn't that bloke Simon de Sideways the limit?
I can only add that despite Simon's enthusiasm, our commitment is to help people realise their potential.
This course is about learning, and how to learn.
Everyone has a slant on this, I happen to believe that MIRA is the best facility in the UK for teaching people to drive on or near to the limit of what is possible.
I do know that after twelve months of hard work at MIRA my driving has improved out of all proportion and that it is always a pleasure to greet new people and to help them.
Some people ask me if it gets boring, I always answer "people are not boring".
I often wonder how on earth they can do what they do, in that particular way that they do it, and I am fascinated when I find out the answer.
When they are given a better choice, people generally can't resist taking one.
So much for a holiday in the sun.

Blow Dog

This sounds like absolute heaven....COUNT ME IN!!

cem@blowdog.com

johnfelstead

Sounds like we could have a great bunch going.

It will be good to meet simon in particular as we have had some cracking techy discusions on here. Anyone into rallying in particular should be fun.

If you need contact details then email me or better still contact don via his email address under his profile.

Cheers
john

johnfelstead

dave, don can be contacted on 01628 784911.

the cost is £275 inclusive.

Worn Yoko A520's would be a right good laugh on this course, i had these on my cossie and it was a right handfull in the wet, you could slide it for ages.


Kev, you can sit in with me if you like, its only a sport but should still be able to slide it about a bit.

send me an email if you want to come along.

[This message has been edited by johnfelstead (edited 11-01-2000).]

SDB

Kev

Check with Don re attendance, I will be going on Sunday and probably Saturday Afternoon. I'd be more than happy to give you a blast round.

Cheers

Simon
PS Looking forward to meeting you all

Orville

How often are these courses run and how much does it cost?

cheers.

AlexM

Hi guys,

I was lucky enough to be given a gift certificate for Christmas by my wife, but unfortunatly I can't make it on Sunday. I have a question for Don or Simon - what is the insurance position? Is the situation as per a track day, i.e. my car insurance is valid assuming no exclusions, or would I be well advised to get some additional cover?

Have fun on Sunday!

Cheers,

Alex

johnfelstead

My company car insurance covers me for any damage, in the unlikely event of an allmighty **** up.

I checked this with the insurance company.

The best bet is to talk to your insurance company and tell them your intentions, stressing that the course is aimed at improving your driving skills in adverse conditions works wonders.

I think Don can also arange additional insurance if your own company is a bit backward in seeing the benefits of this course.

Kev

Spoke to this Don Palmer last month , he is a real top bloke....I'm only 5 miles away from MIRA and would love to go but I've had a few big bills drop on my lap in the last couple of weeks so my plans are on hold for a couple more months <sob-sob-sob> ...... unless some one wants a passenger this Sunday.....!
K

DBarthorpe

Don,

I've sent you a mail but my email is a bit dodgy at the moment, so I've posted here too:

It sounds like an absolutely brilliant day out!

I am definitely interested, can you let me know how much the day costs, what time it starts etc etc.

My insurance doesn't cover me for track days. I will try to persuade them that the course is a learning course and NOT a trackday, but could you possibly give me some details of the additional insurance you offer? Would it be silly to do the course with no insurance cover?? I.E What are the chances of hitting something/someone else hitting me?!

I have a Turbo running on half-worn Yoko A520s......would this be Ok as I know these tyres aren't very good in the wet (or is that the idea??!!)

Best regards

Dave Barthorpe

Don Palmer

Blowdog /Orville
Call me 01628 784911 price is £275 inc VAT and a good lunch. We run whenever there are enough people expressing an interest - most weekends at least one course.
This fits in with other commitments teaching and consulting in the UK and overseas.
Best fishes Don

alistair

Around the concentric circles I doubt you could hit anything. The inner circles are somrthing like 10% and 30% of normal grip surrounded by Shellgrip (very grippy) so even when you lose it completely, you just land up straight as soon as you hit grip.

Around the circuit, the surround is all grass. However, the water jets are mounted in concrete blocks which are fairly flush with the grass, but not completely. So there is potential for damage here if you really push it, but that is not the objective of the day. It's all about consistency, pushing the limit very slightly more each time to understand where the limits are.

I managed to lose it a couple of times on the circuit and the best bet was to admit defeat and just go straight onto the grass, no heroics, but no hitting concrete with a wheel sideways either !

Blow Dog

Looking forward to it already =)

Anyone going on the sunday coming from N London area?

Cem

chestnut

What hours does the event run between on Sunday. I'm based in Suffolk and am thinking of giving it a go.

johnfelstead

meet at 9am, start about 10am finnish about 4pm roughly

Simon R

Hopefully I'm comming tomorrow to spectate since I can't afford it at the mo, yet I'm interested in seeing the action that goes on here

If I come I'll be bringing my video camera and tripod so if anyone fancies some video action for a keepsake, let me know!

All depends on what time I can get out of my pit though

Till tomorrow then

Simon R
V5 WRX

SDB

Hi Chaps

Simon..
Look forward to seeing you tomorrow. Make sure you clear it with Don first as he will need to sign you in. Also, sorry but they don't allow cameras.. to many secret things going on and stuff.. big shame.

Had another great afternoon at MIRA today.. Had a go in a Porka 996, good fun and extremely well behaved. Car of the day was an automatic vauxhall omega!!! It was obviously a heap of crap really, but what a laugh!! really sideways! and soft and wallow (sp?) ride, but great fun.

Look forward to seeing those who go tomorrow.

It will also be the last outing for me and the Scoob .

C-ya

Simon

Simon R

Damn! Thanks for the warning Simon

Shame, I was looking forward to getting some sideways action on film, but I understand the reasons behind this

Don, is it alright to come down and spectate?

Regards

Simon R
V5 WRX

Blow Dog

Yeah im really looking forward to tommorow also, should be a great laugh.

Still waiting for Don to confirm tho =/
Cem

johnfelstead

Well, finally got to give my car a run at MIRA with don palmer.

Absolutely fabulous day, great company with Simon de bank and co, I learned so much I will try and break it down into how the day progressed.

Arrived at the MIRA track at about 10.30 after a chat and plenty of caffeine in the nearby little chef.

Don then talked us through the aims of the day, how the track elements should be used and how we could get the most out of our time.

It was obvious that we were there to be coached to learn at our own pace, and to enjoy it.

We were given a run around the track and the concentric circles with don driving, my immediate reaction was bloody hell, I'm never going to
Be able to drive like that, I thought I was a good driver but that was ridiculous, sideways at 45 degrees at 45MPH in total control for 300 yards.

We then jumped into our cars, 2 on the concentric circles with don and colin sitting in, the other six on the wet handling circuit, getting used to the lines
And how the car feels on various radius corners.

It was now my turn on the concentric circles in my Impreza Sport; the first exercise was to show how by reducing my speed by just 1 MPH at the limit of adhesion the massive increase in grip you feel, quite amazing.

The next excersize was to show how applying more lock in understear will reduce the cornering grip, making the understear worse still and by taking lock off you
Actually increase the rate of turn and reduce the understear. Quite a weird sensation at first, turning away from the corner to actually make it turn in faster.

This had the effect that with just gentle changes in steering lock, with very light pressure on the steering wheel, you could feel the available grip and balance the turn in very accurately, a real eye opener.

Next came the bit I was really looking forward to, the power slides round the circle in total control.

This was by far the hardest thing to do, I could get the back end to spin out and do a slide but could only hold it for a few yards at a time, and I was also revving the nuts off it to try and keep the back end out, I was struggling and getting quite frustrated about it.

Don had a go himself in my car and said it was harder to do in the sport due to its lack of power compared to the turbo, but he was still managing to hold it for about a quarter of the circle.

It was then time for someone else on the circles so I went back to the main track, taking Kevin for a run. I felt quite confident on the main track as that was more natural to me but one corner in particular was frustrating me, the bottom hairpin; I have always struggled on these types of corners and discovered later why and how to fix the problem.

We then had some time to play on the circles on our own, taking turns in groups of 2 but I still couldn't get the ca to slide properly and had convinced myself it was down to the lack of power and not ME.

We then went of for a cracking meal at a local hotel, whilst all the banter was going on I was thinking about what the car was doing and what I was doing and trying to suss out why I was so crap at keeping the car in a slide, it was really bugging me.

I thought it would be worth dropping the front tyres by 2PSI as I felt the rear had too much grip in relation to the front, inducing more understear in an already understearing car.
This change helped a great deal with general handling on the track and helped a little on the concentric circles but I still couldn't get it to slide for any length of time, it was really winding me up now.
I was totally convinced it was down to power and not ME.

Simon de Bank then suggested I drive his turbo to see how I got on with that, it was much easier to get in a slide but I was only able to hold it for about half a lap, I was obviously still doing something wrong.

I asked Simon to have a go in mine to see how he got on, expecting him to be able to hold it for about a quarter of a circle.
The Bloody swine did the most majestic slide in it, right round the full circle with absolute precision.

It suddenly clicked what I was doing wrong, the mental block I had put up blaming my problems on power disappeared as it had been proven to me that simply wasn't the case.
I jumped back in the driver's seat and was straight away sliding it for fun, managing a complete 300-yard slide, absolutely brilliant.
The satisfaction at understanding what I was doing wrong and being able to rectify it was enormous.

Don had a drive again later and said the car was much better than in the morning, so the tyre pressures had helped aswell, but the biggest
Change was in the way I drove and had removed the mental block that I had, making excuses for my lack of ability at the time.

I then spent some time being coached on the main track bt colin and got to grips with the various radius corners, the biggest change was my ability in the tight hairpin, and by changing my entry line I could give a much straighter exit line and be on the power far sooner, inducing no understear and massively increasing my exit speed.

I finished the day off by about 4 laps of the concentrics with Kevin sat in with me, he was amazed at the difference, the revs were now only at 4000 rather than
My earlier 5500 and the car was in total control, absolutely awesome change in ability in just 4 hours of driving.

The drive home was quite amazing; I could tell how much more confident I was in the wet. The biggest change was in my smoothness and speed; I now know what the car will do at and beyond the limit of adhesion and how to feel for the available grip and exploit it.

It was the most relaxed, safest and yet quickest driving I have ever done in the wet.

I always considered myself a competent and quick driver in the past; I have a fair number of trophies for 2nd and thirds in rallies and sprints but I can honestly say I have been driving well under my ability, I just needed showing how to use it properly.

Maybe a first would be on the cards now.

I must thank Don, Colin and Simon de Banke , in only 4 hours they have transformed my driving in the wet, I now think differently about how to drive safely and quickly.
Driving in the wet is now a pleasure, not a hassle. Best £275 I have ever spent.

[This message has been edited by johnfelstead (edited 17-01-2000).]

Kev

One word sums up the whole day....

Excellent !!

K

DavidG

Sounds like a fun and worthwhile day. How do you get on the course? How much of your tyres did you have left at the end?

David

johnfelstead

tyre wear is very small as it is totally wet, low grip surface.

I did have them steaming mind you

Don's number is in the thread, give him a ring.

sunilp

John,

That sounds fantastic....i am absolutely crap in the wet (and in the dry...lol)

I will have to go on one...when are the Scooby boys going next?

Sunil

AlexM

Hi All,

I'm going on Feb 19th. See you there?

Rgds,

A.