Dave P

There seem to be a number of threads running at the moment on speeding and in a lot of them I notice a kind of two sides approach... the serves you right holier than thow approach... and the prepare to be flamed everyone on this board is a goody two shoes approach.

So I just thought that with two years of BBS service I'd try and pull together some sort of balanced approach based on all the threads I have read on the subject..

I don't think it's a goody two shoes approach to speeding more a sensible mature approach....

a) A 30 mph speed limit is normally there for a good reason. Pedestrians are unpredictable, kids more so. I almost saw a toddler run over once, it was scary he just ran straight out in the road before his parents could catch him. Therefore people tend to get particularly annoyed about the caught doing 46 in a 30 type thread because this type of driving is most likely to result in injury.

b) Often people come and WHINGE about getting caught speeding in any limit. When we speed we break the law (whether or not we agree with the law is a different matter)and take the associated risks. If we get caught there is no point whinging. Ask for advice sure, but whinge..... no.

c)I think most people here respect "appropriate use of speed", (probably even the police, but they are there to uphold the law and not interpret it so don't beat up on them. Stuart H agree?) that is a clear open road good long visibilty etc, but still if you get caught you broke the law, accept it.

d)Boasting about speeding on a public bulletin board is probably not the brightest thing to do. It is quite possible that insurers, police the press and other organisations read this board. If every other thread is of the "maxed my car out at 145", "great handbrake turn at such and such roundabout tonite" type, then we may expect adverse reaction from the public / press / AND INSURERS.

There we go..... for the record I do speed at times, but try to avoid it in 30's.

Dave

Steve vRS

Some good points which I agree with wholehartedly.

I especially agree with the bit about other peoples perception of this board, Subaru Imprezas and their drivers.

One thing I will add however is the fact that speed limits seem to be reducing for no good reason. If limits are realistic then more people will take notice of them. For example a 20mph limit in a housing estate, outside a school or park is sensible and will be adhered to by most sensible people.. A 40mph limit on a long open A-road is not realistic and will be ignored by most sensible people.

Steve

mutant_matt

Dave,

well said. The key is "appropriate use of speed". You're asking for it if you are doing more than 10mph over the speed limit in built up areas.

Trouble is, increasingly, inappropriate speed limits are popping up all over the place, 30's on rural dual carriageways etc. etc just devalue "proper" 30's in town so as the limits come down 'cos "Speed Kills", people pay less and less attention to the limits - it's a catch 22 which the authorities are making worse by the day.

What I want to see if a crackdown on speeding where it matters, in built up areas - only 6% of all accidents happen in Nationals so why are the Police focusing on nice long fast wide open country roads? Revenue!!!! It's not their fault I'm sure as they go and nick people for speeding where they're told to but there seems to be an increasing element in the Police force where they are spouting the same old "Speed Kills" message.

I happen to know a fair few Traffic Officers due to having done both my car and bike Advance IAM Driving Tests and they all agree with me - Driver Education is the way to reducing accidents, not by nicking people who are (safely) exceeding the Speed Limit in the middle of nowhere. In fact, that's why they spend so much of their own time, carrying out their IAM Examiners role....

It all just makes no sense.......The only answer has to be, keep your eyes peeled, stick to 30s, 40s and 50s and only give it the beans in the Nationals when it's safe and just try and have a lot of self control the rest of the time.

It sucks but what can you do?

Matt

brickboy

Agreed ... don't know if anyone saw "Mean Streets" on BBC1 last night. It was about the Southend 'cruise', with lots of Max Powered motors doing donuts, burnouts etc. Then going on to draw the conclusion that "thanks to modern speed camera technology, this type of hooliganism will soon be a thing of the past".

Sorry, but this type of behaviour has nothing to do with speed or real-world driving, for example maintaining a steady 85 on an empty motorway, or hitting 80+ while overtaking on an open A-road.

Unfortunately, we're all going to get punished for speeding, no matter how good we think we are as drivers.

GaryC

I sit here with three speeding convictions inthe lasy 5 years (2 current) giving me 9 live points (12 for insurance) - I have thus changed my driving style dramatically

A large number of speed limits are draconian and *very* out of date, but anyone that exceeds them by 1 mph is asking for trouble. It may not be dangerous, and perfectly safe with the road conditions. It may be a stupidly low speed limit there purely for revenue generation, but exceed it and you ask for trouble A large number of Police forces will now FPN you for 5mph above a 30, 6mph over 40, 7mph over 60 etc and issues summons at 15mph over the limits up to 60. In my book it isn't worth the risk of losing my license!

I have been forced to stick rigidly to speed limits, and have been stunned how easy it actually is. Try it for the 'lack of paranoia behind the wheel' alone It will mean I 'have' to do more track days but so be it!

Yes I think the traffic police are revenue generating, statistic fiddling, picked on at school, power crazy little hitlers, and have absolutly no respect for them whatsoever and have similar lack of respect for the councils that fold to the pressure of misguided anti-car pressure groups and set the limits at such stupid levels. But it is a fact of life, a near police state fact of life perhaps, but you just have to look afternumber one.

If you want to 'safely' speed, speed - just be aware of the consequences

"Go to the mattresses" but do it without losing your license

Dave T-S

Dave
Got it in one.....

I am one probably one of the worst flamers - but I ONLY do it when the person is not prepared to be responsible for their own actions and take it on the chin, but tries to blame it on everyone/everything else but themselves....

TRIGGER

Speeding in villages, built up areas etc where pedestrians, especially kids can run out, is dangerous and not something I do.

But now all the country roads in our area have been changed from national to 40 mph zones. This covers all the very open roads, with long straights, miles away from houses and people. At one place in Crawley, you go from a 40 into a 50 zone as you enter a built up area !!! This isnt even for revenue as I have never seen a police speed trap and there are no cameras !! Why have they done this ? All it means is that people flash you when you overtake at 50/60 mph - idiots.

I think we can all agree that some limits are fine but some are daft - especially motorway limits. But if you speed, and get caught, its tough luck, as you knew what you were doing - take it and dont whinge.

Blackscooby

I agree with Trigger about country roads. Some of the roads near my parents north of Settle (Yorks Dales) have changed from wonderful sweeping 60MPH roads with long straights to 30 and 40 MPH roads for what seems to be little reason. ITS THE MIDDLE OF BLINKING NOWHERE !

It does seem to detract away from the appropriate use of 20 / 30 mph zones for built up areas.

Mark.

Wurzel

iTrader: (1)

I don't live in England but am English and go there quite regularly, I agree with the 30 or less speed limits through villages and past schools but England seriously needs to reconsider it's limits espcecially taking into account the performance and braking abilities of modern cars. Why do they continue to make more and more powerfull cars and then drop the speed limit, erect camera and install speed bumps to slow them all down to stupidly low speeds. Perhaps if they spent more money on improving the driving test and educating not only drivers but Pedestrians and cyclists then maybe this alone could improve road safety. Doesn't it strike anybody as odd that a 17 yr old snot nose can go out and pass his/her driving test in a mini metro and then go home and get in daddy's Porsche/Merc/BMW/Scoob or Ferrari F50 etc and legally with no restriction take it down the motorway, a car they have never driven on a road it is illegal to be on unless you have passed your test. I am also suprised they haven't introduced the American and some European countries law about jaywalking, this would generate an incredible amount of extra revenue for the fat cats. I am not a holier than thou joe, I speed, but I also choose when and where to do it. If you want to do it that's your business I don't care either way.

I also found this site pretty interesting and have never seen it before, maybe some of you have.

Mad Max

Don't forget one important fact...

Speed limits, and other road regulations are implemented by people, and there are incompetent people EVERYWHERE ! (More so in public jobs). So, it's normal that some of those regulations are ridiculous, as well as some speed limits in some weird places. But we do have to live with incompetence on a daily basis, and this means not breaking those dumb rules...

All this to say that I don't think that some speed limits are made for income purposes... It's more incompetence that rules the game , and there isn't much we can do about it...

n1ckr

Blackscooby, I know what you mean, I live just north of Leeds, and the main road near me used to be 60, has been reduced to 50, with 30 spots, yet all there is to drive into for MILES is fields. The road is totally straight, very few junctions etc, and they there loads of police cameras now there.

Yet my street off this road, there is a school, the high street, and cars race along this road (sometimes avoiding traffic), my dads car has been hit 3 times since Xmas, we complain to the police, about how the school is only 100 meters away, and how my dads car could have had a child crossing behind it (legally parked outside our house on the street), but the police have not responed.

Last week a car went through my next door neighbours wall !!! luckily it was 6 am, car was written off, my neighbours car that was the drive had to be towed away, and then we complain to the police again and we get stories of all the money spent on the main road !!

It totally annoys me, how the police/local council will not take any notice, yet the main road which is totally away from houses has been slowed, CAUSING more speeders and traffic past my house, the school and the high street.

I feel very fustrated to say the least.

ca

It is all about what speed is appropriate for the conditions.

15mph in a 30 limit might still be too fast at 15:15 on a Friday afternoon outside a school, but 50mph might be perfectly reasonable at 4am in the morning.

C

Dave P

C,

Try living on a road in a 30mph limit during summer. Open your windows, and here what a car travelling at 50 mph sounds like at 4 am in the morning compared with a car travelling at 30 mph.

The noise difference is quite suprising and somewhat annoying. So it isn't neccesaily speed killing, but speed generating noise.

I did actually get a letter published in my local rag about a year ago on the subject of speed and inappropriate positioning of speed cameras etc..... interestingly most of the local populous was more interested in the price of strawberry jam at the local farmers fair or something like that.

Dave

Jza

I saw a program about 2 traffic cops driving a red 5 series around some motorway. Reps cruised by them at 100mph plus - and got no reaction - as long as the roads permitted it - i.e. no traffic / good road conditions. But if someone did something unsafe (tailgate / speed in congestion) they were on them like a ton of bricks.

Fair enough i thought.

But now thats balanced by these stupid speed traps in the middle of no where. And a radar gun doesnt account for the conditions like our TV bobby did.

I deserve a ticket if speed in a built up area. But do i deserve a ticket if it sunny in the middle of nowwhere and im "making good progress". There should be some line between "guilty - dangerous" and "guilty - no danger".

Jza

GaryC

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by n1ckr:
<B>Blackscooby, I know what you mean, I live just north of Leeds, and the main road near me used to be 60, has been reduced to 50, with 30 spots, yet all there is to drive into for MILES is fields. The road is totally straight, very few junctions etc, and they there loads of police cameras now there.

Yet my street off this road, there is a school, the high street, and cars race along this road (sometimes avoiding traffic), my dads car has been hit 3 times since Xmas, we complain to the police, about how the school is only 100 meters away, and how my dads car could have had a child crossing behind it (legally parked outside our house on the street), but the police have not responed.

Last week a car went through my next door neighbours wall !!! luckily it was 6 am, car was written off, my neighbours car that was the drive had to be towed away, and then we complain to the police again and we get stories of all the money spent on the main road !!

It totally annoys me, how the police/local council will not take any notice, yet the main road which is totally away from houses has been slowed, CAUSING more speeders and traffic past my house, the school and the high street.

I feel very fustrated to say the least.[/quote]


Which road? - I'm North Leeds born and bred and still go back a couple of times a a month - useful to know where to watch out

BarryK

For anyone who knows the roads around Oldham (ie everyone on NM5 ) Ripponden Rd (the A672) from Grains Bar to Denshaw is now 40 mph.

Why?!?!?

This causes frustration and so called "road rage".

WREXY

I totally agree with Mad Max about the incompetent people in all different places. Same problem in OZ with the wrong speed limits and the policing of speed on the wrong roads. In an earlier thread a few days ago, the topic was "how many points", I mentioned I was done for 30kph over. This was on a dead straight country road 10 km long here in Greece. No houses, only country side, speed limit an unbelievable 50kph. I was doing 80kph. Yet the police were there with their radar guns. Now in our town, every morning and afternoon taking to and picking up my daughter from school, are the real law breakers. Parents flying round the blind bends where the roads are so narrow, with blind bends due to buildings and barely enough room for 2 cars to pass each other. If both cars are speeding going opposite ways a head on impact would be unavoidable. I do 10kph around those bends and other drivers i.e most do around 35kph which is dangerous. Where are the police? Out on the safe highways. Please note I'm talking kilometres and not miles.

[This message has been edited by WREXY (edited 11 May 2001).]

WREXY

TEST

DaveD

iTrader: (2)

I have to agree to the general flow of this thread. 30, 40 or 50mph limits to be adheered to, then whatever is sensible at the GLF signs, and accept there is a risk of getting caught.

What is annoying is the appearance of innapropriate speed restictions in areas which used to be National Limit. Why?

The other problem is speed traps in National areas on A-roads. On more than one occasion I've been on the verge of overtaking, only to spot a camera at the last moment and abort the move. This is potentially very dangerous - if you are overtaking a lorry travelling at 50mph say, by the time you've got past, you could easily be doing 80mph. What do you do if you spot a camera?!

smallfin

what people tend to forget is that speed limits are the maximum legal speed allowed in that area,
doing 30 mph past parked cars with kids playing in the street just becouse that's what it says on a sign, could be far more lethal than doing 100mph on a clear straight road!!!
its not speed that kills, and causes accidents its bad driving.
thats what i think any way
andy

Chris L

Well said Dave and others. Since I've had the Impreza, I've become more aware than ever of the speed I'm doing. Part of this is because the car attracts attention (not always the right type ) and partly because I'm probably turning into an old git .

I have to say it scares me rigid now when I see drivers (young or old it doesn't seem to matter) doing 50 in 30 zones.

Last night I was on my way home, going through a 40 limit dual carrigeway with shops on one side. A toddler came out of one of the shops and ran towards the road - my heart was in my mouth - not a pleasant feeling. I have to say I wasn't speeding and I hit the brakes but I knew I couldn't stop in time. In actual fact the kid was running to press the button for the predestrian crossing - but he could have so easily of kept running. I dread to think what would have happened. It is true, as you get older you do get wiser and I for one am very pleased I don't now drive like I did when I was 17!

I would rather make a few mods to my car and take it on the track now than risk things on a public road. Just my 2 cents for what it's worth.

Cheers
Chris


[This message has been edited by Chris L (edited 11 May 2001).]

Dave T-S

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by DaveD:
On more than one occasion I've been on the verge of overtaking, only to spot a camera at the last moment and abort the move. This is potentially very dangerous - if you are overtaking a lorry travelling at 50mph say, by the time you've got past, you could easily be doing 80mph. What do you do if you spot a camera?![/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

1. Poop yourself

2. Pray there's no film in it......

GaryC

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by DaveD:
<B>
What is annoying is the appearance of innapropriate speed restictions in areas which used to be National Limit. Why?

[/quote]


There are 7 very good reason for this

1) Revenue generation
2) Revenue generation
3) Revenue generation
4) Revenue generation
5) Revenue generation
6) Revenue generation, and
7) Giving the 'picked on at school, power craxy little hitlers' of police force knee-trembling orgasms as they asert their 'power' on you whilst fiddling conviction statistics

Steve vRS

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dave T-S:
<B> 1. Poop yourself

2. Pray there's no film in it......

[/quote]

I was once travelling the A7 (I think) coming up to Edinburgh. It has dozens of cameras, all behind signs or bridges. I was overtaking an Astra at about 80 when my girlfriend shouted camera! I saw it about 30ft ahead on the left and so buried the middle pedal and tucked back in behind the Astra. The look on the Astra driver’s face was a picture!

Steve

mutant_matt

Forgot to mention in my previous post, the GLA (I think it's them) have declared that there is to be no speed limit greater than 50mph in the London boroughs with the possible exception of Motorways (though the M4 and the M11 are already casualties of this). I found this out from a Traffic Cop I was chatting to a couple of months back....

Why you have to ask yourself????? There is a dual carriageway in Hainault, Essex which goes from National to 50mph back to National 'cos it just dips into and out of a London borough - how stupid is that????

Matt

kelvin

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Wurzel:
<B>Doesn't it strike anybody as odd that a 17 yr old snot nose can go out and pass his/her driving test in a mini metro and then go home and get in daddy's Porsche/Merc/BMW/Scoob or Ferrari F50 etc and legally with no restriction take it down the motorway, a car they have never driven on a road it is illegal to be on unless you have passed your test.[/quote]

Yes....Just as a 30 year old millionaire can pass his driving test, go out, buy a Ferrari and do exactly the same.

I'm 18, and generally consider myself to be a fairly sensible driver. My Dad drives a Subaru and yes, I am lucky enough to be occasionally allowed to drive it - I was when I was 17, BUT to be honest, it's this sort of stereotyping that really gets up my nose . What difference does it make whether a "new" driver is 17, or 30? At the end of the day, both would be inexperienced and just as susceptible to driving unsafely and stupidly, and thus having an accident. I'm not saying that all 17 year olds are like me, most aren't (I'm sure it won't be long before someone chips in with several sets of statistics to prove this ), but the way everyone in here is so "anti" young driver does tend to annoy me quite a bit! NOT ALL YOUNG DRIVERS ARE BAD!!!!

Kelvin.

(Not having a go at anyone in particular here - just my tuppence worth! )

Markus

oooh, i could rant for my country on speeding, but i won't!

I can agree with some speed limits, eg; built up areas, nr schools, etc... That is sensible, but things like variable speed limits on M25 are silly, UNLESS used when conditions merit the limits and i'd have to say that 85 - 90 percent of the time this does not happen. I've been on the M25 at 3 in the morning and it's had a limit of 50!! it was a nice clear dry night as well! stupid, stupid, stupid!

There are now speed cameras in my town that serve no other purpose than to annoy and create revenue. Yet in a village near me there is a school, and the 30mph limit starts AFTER the school, so the national speed limit still applies within the schools boundry, which is really stupid.

So, my view towards speeding? well, I'm no saint, I do try and stick to speed limits, certainly in built up areas, but on nice clear open roads, well, I will travel at the national speed limit, and maybe a tad over, but only usually when overtaking, I'm not a a speed demon, or a complete nutter.

The whole, speed kills, thing winds me up. It's <I>inappropriate</I> speed that kills, not just speed itself. Rather than raising fines and lowering limits maybe driver re-education should be looked at, this would, in my opinion be a better approach.

anyway, probably totally missed the point of the thread, but what the hell

ca

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dave P:
<B>C,

Try living on a road in a 30mph limit during summer. Open your windows, and here what a car travelling at 50 mph sounds like at 4 am in the morning compared with a car travelling at 30 mph.

The noise difference is quite suprising and somewhat annoying. So it isn't neccesaily speed killing, but speed generating noise.

I did actually get a letter published in my local rag about a year ago on the subject of speed and inappropriate positioning of speed cameras etc..... interestingly most of the local populous was more interested in the price of strawberry jam at the local farmers fair or something like that.

Dave [/quote]


I can sympathise (I have the same problem) but we are conditioned by this Government that Speed Kills, when it doesn't. Inapproprate speed kills. Ensuring people only understand the Speek Kills mantra will actually cause accidents. People are too busy adhering to the speed limit (watching their speedo, watching the road) than concentrating on actual hazards.

re: speed cameras. Good on you. Other people are not interested until it happens to them. Which it will.

Have you joined the abd yet? (www.abd.org.uk)

C

WREXY

"Speed kills", is exactly the same slogan used in OZ. I wonder if its the same in the States. Does anybody know?

scoobysnacks

We probably all agree that speeding and inappropriate speed are two different things these days.
In an ideal and totally fair world they would always be the same thing with speed limits always being at the peak of appropriate speed for that road, but unfortunately this probably isn't going to happen and one day we may all be driving around in electronically speed limited cars with limits varying depending on the roads we're on at the time (one thought though - what if the revenue collection thing actually works in our favour to stop this happening...).
Back to the speed limits though - One problem is that inappropriate speed for one car/driver combination is not necessarily that for another car/driver combination eg. crap driver in a Metro compared to Shcumacher in an STI. Put them in repeated test situations at the same speeds with unexpected hazards on public roads and see how many times they both crash compared to each other. I know who I'd rather accidently walk out in front of in such a test...
I guess the law on speed limits must reflect the 'Metro people' (no real offence to Metros or their drivers intended) even though the 'STI people' could drive around at higher speeds just as safely.
Unfortunately then, we on this board all suffer a bit more than most people because we have to hold back so much more and are more enthusiastic car drivers that most. Performance car drivers will probably always have to put up with this, but I just hope the revenue collection doesn't get any more out of hand and overcome the sense of setting appropriate speed limits on our roads.