Andy.F

Firstly, thanks to David for the front entry plate, without which this would not be happening.


Front entry mod to manifold




Rear entry blanked off





Alternator needs moved, brackets before and after (few lbs saved here )




New bracket in place





Pace 2R40 double row 80mm thick core





Cardboard template of end tank





Cut alloy to template shape and form over something 80mm diameter





It should look something like this





[Edited by Andy.F - 9/25/2002 9:15:47 PM]

P20SPD

iTrader: (1)

Andy his dad is good with the lathe isnt he??

looks good, albeit i am now in trouble a i said "yes that plate does look good" thinking she was meaning your inlet bit that david machined, to be stared at as she was looking at our wedding photos

oh bugger!!

Andy.F

Ye, the plate was a nice piece of work, tapers internally too, to reduce turbulence and increase flow


End tank ready to fit





Ends fitted





Bottom view of core area, lots of short tubes create less turbo backpressure than conventional long tubes





Bottom view with the end tanks fitted, not yet welded.





This is how it will sit in the car, the whole 700mm width of the front bumper opening will be cooler core





The core height is 220mm, the front hole will be enlarged from std height of 180mm (20mm up and 20mm down)



Just need to get myself trained in Alloy tig welding now

[Edited by Andy.F - 9/25/2002 9:35:06 PM]

chiark

So, what's the courier done to your welder then? And how do I fit this downpipe?

Looks excellent

dhorwich

More..... more

Dan

David_Wallis

Drop me a mail with the details for the intercooler, as Mine has been binned.. (almost..)

David

ustolemyname??stevieturbo

iTrader: (1)

Lookin good, but how thick is the aluminium you used for the end tanks?? The pressure acting on the inside of the core can be quite high, and it should be about 2-3mm thick to avoid the risk of bursting. David, buying the cores from Pace in this way really doesnt cost that much, and they do almost any size you want.
The hardest part in making a DIY intercooler, is sorting out the tanks and inlet/outlet, and getting it welded. you have the welder now, so it makes it sooooo much easier when you can do it all yourself, in one place.

[Edited by ustolemyname??stevieturbo - 9/26/2002 12:33:24 AM]

David_Wallis

Right, Ive mailed pace for a price for a 700w x 200h 2r40 cooler...

Well mailed them asking to call for card details..

David

ustolemyname??stevieturbo

iTrader: (1)

Not being cheeky or anything, but practice your welding on something less damageable before welding the new cores..
After a while, you could start selling your own DIY kits...

Andy.F

David

Beware of flowing a core along the length of 700mm as the pressure drop may be excessive.
See here for pricing
ps They don't do cores 700mm wide.

http://www.paceproducts.co.uk/ricc/c...ces%202002.htm

Steve

The end tanks I'm making from 1.6mm. I asked Pace to supply 2 x 1m x 250mm strips of the alluminium alloy they use for their own tanks. It is not standard soft alluminium but some 'tough as old boots' alloy (ns4 ?) All the pace units are tested to 30 psi , should be enough.....just !



[Edited by Andy.F - 9/26/2002 6:36:21 AM]

Tone Loc

iTrader: (1)

Looking good Andy . Brilliant work!

More picies please cause this looks good, how about some pics of the front entry TD05 too....... please .

Tony.

Pavlo

Andy, perhaps you missed the bottom of the chart, the bit that shows the cores up to 840mm long? Which is 840mm wide if you turn the core through 90 degrees.

In my recent enquires with pace, it works out not much more to put together a detailed design and have them make it for you. The Pace impreza kit is expensive compared to their others mainly due to the radiator and fans.

Paul

Andy.F

Paul

A core that is 840 long is not the same as 840 wide ! The width is the measurement across the charge air face, length is tube length.
The better design is to keep length small and width big to reduce charge air pressure losses.

Adam M

excellent design andy, very very impressive.

just want to know where you are going to join the pipes to the turbo. I assume one not two.

how about twin turbos located close to the inlet of the intercooler with a supply from each cylinder coming straight from the exhaust ports?


Would consider havign this design myself, although I dont think there is enormous benfit in shortening thet pipe work and I dont want to lose my aircon.


If david wallis wants to fabricate a complete reversed manifold package with brackets for moving alternator and air con compressor, I might consider it!

would love a full width full height vertical flow intercooler.

trouble is I need pressure handling of 40psi!

David_Wallis

Adam it would be almost impossible to keep the aircon and powersteering... one would have to go... I did the plate for andy, suppose I should have made his alternator bracket for him and then charged him for the diy fmic(tm) kit.

David

Pavlo

Andy,

Maybe we live our lives at 90 degrees to each other?

I'm assuming conventional orienation, tubes horizontal, up to 840mm wide, and 500 tall according to the pace core table

Pressure loss probably isn't going to be loads better with your design, due to the 2 pass design, unless of course there are 2 turbos.

Paul

Andy.F

Adam

Eventually there will be 2 turbo's, one bolted under each head on a very short exhaust manifold. 200 mm of pipe will link them to their respective coolers. The I/C outlet will be at the top of the join between the 2 cores, 80mm pipe coming out the top, over the rad and into the throttle body. For the time being, the one original turbo will flow in one end, up,over and out the other end.
The overall tube length is 440mm with this 'in series' configuration. The Pace units should cope with your required pressures, plenty cossie guys use them at 2.5bar ish

Paul

The standard Pace unit is 470mm tube length, 350mm core face width (single core) This one is effectivly 440 tube length, 700mm core face width (due to double core) That equates to less than 1/2 the pressure drop of the std pace unit. Once it is in parallel mode it will be 220 x 1400 ie 1/8th of the pressure loss.

Even 1 extra psi equals a lot of heat for the I/C to lose. The double benefit is the turbo does not need to work as hard so exhaust backpressure is reduced releasing a further increase in power.

Adam M

it isnt a 2 pass design surely?

the outlet pipe to the front entry inlet manifold is directly in line with the outlet of both intercoolers. I assumed both would join here and outlet straight to the manifold.

if its a two pass then all this talk of pressure drop being minimised is nonsense.

Saying that intercoolers are always a compromise, pressure drop might be lower here but larger pipes means lower surface area, and also less time for exposure to the pipes due to shorter run, therefore not as much cooling.

Higher pressure drop may well mean air is hotter in first place due to turbo working harder to compensate, but you can regain more cooling than you lose due to higher initial temps. Kinda analagous to water injection allowing more adfance but costing power.

I think its great, and very individual, but far too much work for me, and am not willing to lose my aircon for anything.

Andy.F

Adam, the exposure duration is identical in each case, it's just the airflow speed that changes !

Adam M

andy,

isnt the air speed and hence exposure time also dictated by the diameter of the tubes it flows through?

can understand if you use the same diameter tubes in a vertical flow as you do in a horizontal flow then the vertical will be travelling slower hence exposure time the same.

What I mean is you seem to have opened up the core lots to reduce pressure and that part of your design will surely make for worse air charge temperature reduction.

Andy.F

Ah, I see where you're coming from. Yes the heat transfer efficiency will improve with the higher velocity of a long tube design (to a degree) however the small trade in thermal transfer efficiency will be more than offset by the larger surface area which is almost 200% of the std Pace FMIC

Pavlo

I am not comparing it with the std Pace part andy.

If you're feeding in at the 2 lower pipes, and out at the middle-top, then fair enough. 2 runs of short tubes will reduce boundary layer growth in the tubes. What's not clear if the layout is as descibed above, or two pass, in and out at the bottom.

I know you were looking at 2 turbo's for something or other, but is this it?

Paul

Andy.F

Paul

It's both ! My 2nd last post on pg1 explains this

Andy

[Edited by Andy.F - 9/26/2002 1:28:19 PM]

Adam M

in the two at the bottom, out the one at the top, one pass two cores, wheres the complication?

Pavlo

because it can also (and will) be used, in the one end, up to the top, across, down, and out the other end.

The other option would have been to have a central collector tanks, and horizontal tubes etc.

Andy, how you gonna get the tube over the rad?

Paul

Adam M

scrap this reply.

just read andys explanation.

what a guess, two small turbos one on each head feeding directly into the intercooler.

not looking forward to seeing the downpipe design!

assume you will bolt an airfilter directly on to each turbo too.

sounds like a fun plan, cant wait to see this one finished.

cant you move closer to london, would be easier for me!

[Edited by Adam M - 9/26/2002 3:19:21 PM]

carlos_hiraoka

Andy are u trying to make something similar to Prova's Legacy B4 - 2.5-litre twin turbo, twin intercooler, 6-speed transmission ?????

carlos_hiraoka

more pics:









Carlos H.

Andy.F

Tasty Legacy

The twin turbo's are a bit away yet but I didn't want to make one intercooler now, then make another in a few months to suit the T/T (if I don't change tack and sell it first ) So this design is currently a compromise but dual purpose

The T/T downpipes are quite simple follow the same path as the standard uppipe 1/2 way up then curve over the x-member and out usual route, same route on near side, as used by the APS FMIC kit !

I considered a centre tank design Paul but I wanted as much core surface area presented to the main air infeed duct as possible, a centre tank would have robbed 220 x 50 mm's worth !! My top and bottom tanks both sit behind the bumper in stagnant flow areas.

For Plan 'A' - Single turbo, the turbo air outlet pipe routes under the inlet plenum out the front and down between the rad and engine to the bottom infeed of the I/C. Cooled air returns up from the other side, between rad and engine (lagged pipe) and into the front entry throttle body. I have moved the rad forward and fitted one central fan to allow this.

Plan 'B' - Twin turbo, In to bottom of I/C either side direct from turbo discharge, out middle at top, into oval type duct over rad and into throttle body (like the pipe on an RS turbo but bigger) The radiator has been lowered slightly to assist here.

Air filters almost direct onto turbo's leading up into behind headlamp area. MAP based ECU will be most suitable,(sad to lose the JECS ) probably GEMS but undecided yet.

Std internals will remain until broken !!!

UkLegacyT

Andy, so on plan B, your car will have something in common with an rs turbo?

on a serious note, intercooler looks very smart

ian.