335i or GTR
 

Test drove these two cars today - 335i Coupe Sport Auto and R35 GTR.

A strange pair, but really can't think of much else, 997 Turbo seem expensive for a 3 year old car and quite likely to depreciate heavily when the 2nd gen comes out later this year. 996 Turbo is £40k for a reall good 5 year old example with X50- (although I would go for manual in this car). Lots of service/maintenance bills for Porsche seem routinely over £2k as they always find things to do. While since I drove a 996 Turbo and it was very competent, but somehow I still wonder if it does it for me. M5/M6/RS6 seem too big for what I want. RS4 doesn't make its quoted power and is manual.

I would like AWD, six+ cylinders, turbo, refinement, auto, decent ride, decent range and subtle looks.

GTR, not really very refined and quite poor ride quality even in comfort. My 5'6" wife could not get comfortable in the back and her head was hitting the rear screen, even though it is a big and heavy car. The demonstrator was being run in so could not be revved over 4000 RPM. However, it had decent but not earth shattering torque, gearbox was not too jerky, but I actually preferred the 335i autobox which was very responsive and silky smooth! The brakes and chassis felt good as far as they could be explored on Sunday afternoon roads and visibility around bends etc, but the fun was soon stopped by other traffic. I know I could only rev it to 4000 RPM, but it didn't blow me away at all for acceleration or chassis/steering feel, it just felt competent. However, whilst it would do daily driver duties, the maintenance frequency and costs, and the inability to park it and forget it, along with manners that whilst better than an Evo are not really up to scratch IMHO.

335i was well specced with nice trim and colours, on 19" runflats. The chassis was far more stable over bumps than my old M3, and it had impressive ride quality and refinement. The engine was impressively smooth and competent, and really overall it felt "enough" at just a pip over half the price of the GTR. I thought I would be impressed and I was. I just wonder in the real world with bumpy roads, limited visibility, cameras etc.

Very near to doing a deal on the 335i. Presumably you guys will talk me out of it and insist I buy the GTR, or do you see my point? Perhaps a bit like the Autocar Focus RS vs GTR, I fail to see the extra enjoyment for the extra expense and ridiculous maintenance/poor manners of the GTR.

I would chip the 335i to about 380 BHP and get some winter wheels/tyres.

335i everyday of the week and twice on Sunday's for the reasons you mention John. Whilst the exotic choice, I wouldn't go down the GTR route.

"While since I drove a 996 Turbo and it was very competent, but somehow I still wonder if it does it for me."

Every 996 driver I have spoken with says it feels a better to drive fast in than a 997. ALso many have commented that the older 996 4WD is actually full time and more progressive to use than the on-demand system- which Meaden in evo found very lacking in a back to back with an evo9.

Also have a look in the community group of DR, all eds say there favorite all round 911 is either a 996 4S or Turbo. I think everyones on to something with the 996 4wheelers.
I would love to see a back to back test on wet roads between a Gt-R and 996 Turbo. I think it would be very close and at least the 996 would come off as much more fun and communicative with it.

I say find a 996TT. JL

also John a few other suggestions...

What about the 4 door M3-e92, whats wrong with that?
or if want to be a guinea pig but maybe? a happy one...
how about the Evora?
Last probably the best back roads handling of all Litchfeld type-20.

It was a while since the 996 Turbo drive, but getting out of an E46 M3 it didn't feel unrefined or over-firm. The GTR fails for me as a road car because of its ride quality and noise level, the 335i make it look ridiculous in this respect.

I'm going to look at a 996 Turbo on Wednesday.

You may find the 996TT just as noisy (I've not driven the GTR so I'm guessing).
Mine runs on Pirelli's and does seem to have quite a bit of road noise, and the engine just a few cm away from the rear seats doesn't help ;)
I think these tyres are louder than Michelins on the 996 so have a look at the tyres on the car you're going to drive.

I'd have a chipped 335i out of those two any day of the week. You've been back and forth on this issue for years and the 335i has been looming in your thoughts since it first came out. If BMW made an AWD version over here you'd have one in your drive already. I say go for it and re-adapt your driving back to RWD again :)

I havent driven the GTR, but the 335i is a great car IMO. Really nice engine, smooth and powerful. As an everyday (very fast) car - I'd recommend it! (my dad has one and he likes it :))

335i and a 110 Landy for the winter or you'll be back on here telling us all how crap the BMW is in the winter.

RS4's come in manual and tiptronic. 335i are nice, but common. RS4 tiptronic all day long for me.

SBK

There are 126 RS4 listed on Autotrader. One B5 model is listed as auto, but I believe that to be a mistake.

I have Michelins and they are quite noisy. There again I have less sound proofing and a much noisier engine to boot (well, actually in the boot).

996TT is a cosseting GT car - go on, admit it ;)

Older B5's were manual only, the newer B7's are both manual and tiptronic. Ive test driven a B7 tiptronic, as I only like auto's now :-) Was a superb car, although rear legroom was poor, especially if you go for the upgraded front seats.


SBK

Or a B8 S4 Stronic??

:thumb::thumb:

SBK, was that an RS4 or an S4? I was under the impression the RS4 was manual only, but you say this is not the case? I would like *lots* of torque, and the non-turbo RS/S models won't do that, and can't sensibly be modified to do it either. Maybe the new S4, but like the 335i it would end up modified, and also likely to lose silly money in the first year.

If the 996 Turbo is like a GT car that would be ace.

Evora is a very different suggestion!

RS4. The car I test drove was a royal blue, or spirit blue, saloon, tiptronic. Yes, the stated 412bhp is questionable, but arent all cars. The tiptronic doesnt rev as highly as the manual, due to the gearbox, and a few owners dont like this. There's a map / update you can do to rectify this. Torque wise, just because its a V8, and not a V6 twin turbo ( like the older B5 model ) 430Nm / 317lb which comes in at low revs, around 2200 rev.

However, if me, I wouldnt bother and just would have a standard RS4 tiptronic. Go over to RS246.com and look around. If me, I would go and test drive one, as its a truely complete car, 4x4, fast, solid, firm, although space in the back is poor. Tiptronics are rare though.

Comparing the 335 / RS4, the audi is far better built, better quality of paintwork too, as BMW stuff is all water based.

SBK

If Audi's paint isn't waterbased, i'd be very surprised.

John, read the Porsche vs Datsun thread that Spooky posted a couple of days back. The comments in the article relating to the GTR's traction in the wet was a bit of an eye opener. Even the older GTRs don't grip like an Impreza when it gets greasy.

Just get the Type 20 and have done with it ;)

"The comments in the article relating to the GTR's traction in the wet was a bit of an eye opener."

Sorry didn't see those comments, anyone tell me which thread there in?

"Just get the Type 20 and have done with it"
Might very well be the most competent back road car extant. Funny no one has ever really compared this car to anything significant like oh for instance a 996TT~!!! Would be amazing to see these two going at it. JL

It's in here called Porsche v Datsun v Ring.

It is an article on Drivers Republic where Chris Harris drives a GT2 and a GTR around the Ring. Given the GT2s amazing power and fearsome reputation there were many areas where it was simply more spritely and better glued down than the GTR.

It was all in the Porsche v Nissan argument over the 7m 27s Ring time of a 'standard' GTR. No-one else seems to think it is possible. (The GT2 was faster in Chris Harris's hands).


Click here

Shan't.
:p

335i, GTR, 911 TT - such completely different cars. Can't compare. It's down to you John, though I would have to say that assessing a GTR with only 4k to play with is not going to be representative at all. Give it full beans and it will surely blow you away on that score at least. It's just a regular car at anything less than 7/10ths; it's bound to feel ordinary at ordinary speeds, it was built to go fast.

If you're worried about leaving the car, then that puts a whole new complexion on it. Tricky not to get noticed in a 911 of any sort. But if the drive does it for you, as I suspect 450bhp will, then all is forgiven.

Lexus IS-F, Merc C63? Not driven either, both were well out of my price range, and both NA of course which is very costly for modding (but fantastic if you do). But NOS is cheap for straight line fun :lol1:

SBK must have been driving an S4 Tip. RS4 is manual only (auto box won't fit with the engine shifted back). S4 is a fast limo, about as far as it is possible to get from an Evo given the similar configuration. Night and day. Audi S models grip well, but they don't handle. RS cars do both. RS4 is a great car, but lacks turbo torque.

Just as a comment, my lad spent two days thrashing an RS6, R8 and TT-S around Silverstone, and he knows how to drive. TT-S was surprisingly puntable fun considering the lack of poke, R8 was a big disappointment all round, and big surprise was how much fun, puntable and effortlessly powerful the RS6 was. Light it up and stick it sideways anytime, a real hooligan dressed as a Scottish Widow. Dunno if an RS6 is your kind of car, it certainly wasn't mine, but now I know what it can do... :D Gotta be worth a test drive - an obscene amount of power is very corrupting. V discreet, Dr Jekyll ;)

I'd not have any great issue leaving a 911 turbo parked up somewhere as they are common enough and, frankly, not special enough that they won't get too much undue attention. Probably no more so than an Evo or good scooby to be honest. A GTR on the other hand will draw far more attention IMHO and I'd defo have issues leaving that places in the same way I would a Ferrari.

John, I think the best solution is for you and your mechanically minded friend (t-uk) to pack in your jobs and invest all your savings in making a car company. It'll sort your problem and also car selection problems for the rest of us :D We want:

* Sub £60k price
* Good build quality and innovative design inside and out
* Well kitted out and functional interior
* 6cly Turbo or Supercharged delivery
* Circa 450-500bhp with internals and engineering to allow for tuning to over 600
* Coupe or 4-door option
* 4WD with RWD bias and preferably bias controller
* Compliant handling and monster stopping power
* No weak points...if it looks like something is going to break chuck more money at it and over-engineer a solution.
* No flappy paddle nonsense, just a snicky, precise 6-sp box feeding power through conventional LSD(s).
* An exhaust system (perhaps with butterflies) that is quiet, refined and sub-dued at cruise and low throttle applications but far more aggressive and loud when hard on the charge.
* 8000m+ service intervals
* Reliable design and clever location of key components. We don't want to have to take the engine out to replace belts or a clutch, etc.

.....get to it :D

Gents, I was wrong and I must bow my head in shame, it was a S4 I test drove. :-( Had a beer with the guy I went with last night, and he told me it was a S4 and that I was a c0ck, as all RS4 are manual.

Mmmm, S4 was fast though ! :-)

SBK

John, you need to clear your pms, then i can send you the dealer contacts.

Matt

Sorry Matt, done.

I think the remaining shortlist is:
996 X50 Turbo manual
997 Turbo tip
RS6 5.0T

I do not want to compromise on AWD, turbos and sensational thrust ;)

The three remaining cars to test are not in the right place at the right time, trying to arrange. It can be difficult when you want to test to see if it is the right car, but if you liked it the particular example isn't quite the right one - say you prefer one in Northern Ireland for example ;)

PM Sent :)

Ohhhhhhh. Now we're cooking the gas :D

When evo tested the 'uprated' RS6 with even more power - over 600bhp I think - they didn't take to it much. There comment, interestingly, was that it didn't really feel that quick. They felt the standard car was OK and even updated it did not feel as quick as it's figures.

They weren't saying it wasn't fast, just not engaging or visceral. Pretty much the Audi driving trade mark in my experience, although I have only driven lesser models myself.