Is Heal Toe braking necessary for modern cars on track days.
 

I'd imagine if done properly it would be the thing to do.

I've been practicing it now and then, and to be honest I can't do it very well so for me I wouldn't do it on a track day (unless the purpose was more practice).

If I was concerned about lap times it would mean my laps were slower.

I'm a bit of an idiot though... :freak3:

I do it, you get used to it and it feels odd when you don't. Yellowvanman even does it in his diesel van (yellow):lol1:

I've never been able to twist my foot enough. I can do it in some cars by braking with the ball of my foot and blipping with the outside edge.
Don't have the confidence to do this appraching hairpins at 100+ though...
If you can't do it, just change down that bit later before entering a corner
to let your revs drop. Track days aren't about squeezing every last second - that'll trash your car.

More importantly, in understeery cars particulary, leave some of the braking on as you turn in, and easy it off as you head for the apex. This weights up your outside front tyre, and helps prevent understeer. Brake hard on the corner though, and you will of course spin!

But, if you don't do it for your laptime, it's still not bad for your gearbox+brakes...

What about a simple double de-clutch? i.e brake, lift off break, clutch down and blip throttle , change down back on brake.

Once you get used to doing it works well. Also gives your gear box an easier time.

i have always found the pedals in the scoob not to well placed for heal and toe action, can only seem to make it work with big shoes on. Hopefully a nice set of pedals with an extra tab on the side of the accelerator will sort this out.

I think the pedals are perfectly placed for heal and toe on the scoob.
I learnt how to do it properly when I attented the silverstone racing school for a week, 2 years ago. It is a bit difficult at first, but it does start to make sense.
Initially, I brake hard with the top half of my foot, then, at the appropriate time, shift the bottom half of my foot over to blip the throttle. No excuses for big feet either, i'm a size 10!
Feels great when you start to get it right. As Milamber said, when you know how, it feels weird not to!

:( Tried it whilst sat in the car with engine off ect, but due to a bike crash some years ago and a few badley broken bones it seems my leg/foot/ancle won't rotate enough to let me do it. So i'll have to go for double de-clutching through the gears.

MY93WRX,

Try putting the left side of your foot (big toe and ball of foot) onto the edge of the brake pedal (enough to be able to fully depress it), then open your legs, and you should find the right side of your left foot catchs the accelerator pedal enough for 'Heel and Toe' down changes.

Hope that makes sense. I've always found the name 'Heel and Toe' doesn't really help.

Dave.

:idea: Good Idea, i'll have a little experiment with that. :thumb:

A bit off-topic, but if you watch the "Drift Bible" or any of the Best Motoring Series there are some excellent examples of how to heel and toe and the benefits it gives you.
I've found that if you practise during day-to-day driving it soon becomes second nature. Once you become confident with doing this in your normal driving it will be much easier to do it when going quickly.
I think I must have funny joints, because I find the pedal spacing to be perfect in the Scoob.

Not saying it's not a valid technique but just think of when it's raining at night and the feejit in front of you at the juction has got all three brake lights on - two side and centre / hi-vis and is blinding you. Then see how you like it... :nono: ;)

Mind you, the current "couldn't give a flying feck about anybody else" attitude says you wouldn't be bothered when you're doing it...

/rant over :D /

Not found the pedals in the scooby good for it, but do it in everthing else I drive as second nature.

Learnt when I was 19 out of necessity (sp?) as my (old) car had failing oil pressure and if it dropped below 2500rpm the oil light came on :wonder: Result new engine and new technique learnt ;)

Just takes a bit of practice, just like the first couple of time you try left foot braking in an auto:eek2: Good fun if powerful and driven with 2 feet like a kart, but that would be a whole different thread:D

Edited for one bad apple ;) :D

:D

I practiced by just blipping my throttle before I released the clutch for a new gear when changing down on a straight...I soon found (in about 5 mins!) that I wanted to be able to brake as well so I just slid my foot across a little till the right edge of my foot could blip the throttle whilst the left edge was pushing down progressively and smoothely.....feels a damn sight nicer than the engine braking 'reeemmmhh' thing

I don't think what you're describing is a double de-clutch.

Double de-clutch in my book is clutch in, select neutral, clutch out, rev, clutch in, select gear. Don't really see the need for it these days with syncro gears and I usually just blip like you describe. Nice for old cars with knackered gearboxes though :D

Basically, from the words of a master (Michael Schumacher) you dont need to toe/heel on a road car as they are not set up to do so, it will take you longer to do.
He did state on a F1 car they are set up to toe/heal though, now if he doesnt toe/heel on a road car, that tells you something!

Tony

F1's a slightly different discipline from road use though, and let's face it, all Schumacher's cars are sequential and the blip is done automatically...

Surely the main benifit of heel-&-toeing in a rear or AWD (and FWD to a lesser extent) is that the braking affect of gear change doesn't affect the balance of the car when your already at it's limits, meaning you can brake later in a bend and change gear, without the transmission locking a wheel and causing a slide.

mmmh...don't really understand - what do you suppose he's doing on entering fast corners ?...without heel/toe when you drop a gear and brake into a corner when he lets the clutch out it's going to raise the revs considerably resulting in the car being 'sucked downward' at the front by the engine braking...then adding throttle is going to throw that weight to the back again (especially if your turbo spools up..) causing the front end to lift - this is a very unstable way to take a corner at speed

I don't know about anyone else but I'm always 'on throttle' ( even if literally just a tiny tiny bit) and 'on turbo' during a corner - heel and toe allows me to have the car braked and in the right gear for the corner and on throttle without any engine braking and the car setup and moving very smoothly through the turn in ready for the post apex application of my right foot....

Don't get me wrong I don't heel and toe into tesco's car park but high speed cornering..

Have I been doing something wrong - what does everyone else do ? What HAS the MASTER discovered that he's not revaling ?:)

Hmmmm not sure what your doing there Flynn ;) but it doesnt sound very stable to me! :eek:
You should be going into a corner , brake, change down, brake, off brake, enter corner, add power and drive though corner so you have control.
You sound like your going into and though the corner braking, which is quite unstable as you change the balance of front/rear when cornering (well thats what it looks like) which can lead to oversteer, not good in corners unless you like repair bills :(
The Michael Schumacher interview about him not doing toe/heel was on tv i think (was a while ago), but remember that toe/heel isnt a replacement, its an enhancement for a car set up to do so (which 99.9% of road cars are not) so you are acutally slower (plus get it wrong and all you do is put heat into your brakes if you give a bit of both brake/gas at the same time, which can also be a bad thing).

Tony

PS if you ever saw the F1 bit about braking at the very last point v progressive braking.... which one was quicker? ;))

Cheer Tony :) It does look that way doesn't it !!

No, I don't trail brake into the corner - I basically do what your suggesting aiming for as smooth a mechanical 'transaction' as I can. In my 911 I very quickly learnt to brake ONLY on the straights and to have my weight (and power) balanced before I entered the corner...Slow in - fast out...or as you say you'll be in the hedge row!

When I really wanted a very late 'brake' with the 911 a short stab on the brakes then a full power brake would allow me to load the weight up on the front wheels ( on the straight) and scrub off speed dramatically without lockup or skidding but I really haven't done enough driving in the scooby yet ( only 169 miles since run-in!) to know if this same technique will apply...I'm kind of thinking the abs will make this a no-no...do you do anything like this ?

thanks anyway..:thumb:

I always do it on track, and usually on the road too, even in my pickup. You can usually adapt your posture even if the pedals aren't perfectly spaced, but the results on track, if you are doing it properly, speak for themselves.

Try it with a dodgy coil pack simon:lol1: ;) Had a good day non the less.:)

Glad you enjoyed the run in the Touring car :D Drop me a txt tomorrow after you've been to ProSport and let me know the verdict. I bet you don't get out of there without some suspension, brakes, an ECU etc etc now you have the bug- and try to make it down tomorrow afternoon.

I do it all the time now, works great in the S2000 because of the rate of gear change.

Its quite easy when you get used to it. I make sure I focus on the braking first with normal foot position, then when the clutch goes in, pivot my heel onto the throttle and blip it.

I find it much easier to do when really going quick.

MB

This is correct. It's the way to go with when driving vintage cars.

That's certainly the technique for vintage cars but it has more to do with the lack of synchromesh than the condition of the gearbox.
I drive a variety of cars from modern to vintage and always double de-clutch on down changes. It's become a habit over the years. It's been useful on modern cars when the clutch cable has failed as I can continue driving. It also adds to smooth changes as does the throttle blip. Try changing into 1st gear at 20mph any other way. It will be a lot slower and feels bad for the gearbox as the synchromesh tries to speed up the gears.
When you have been double de-clutching for a few years (well decades actually), it becomes as natural and as fast as any other technique.