Originally Posted by ReallyReallyGoodMeat (Post 11803767)

Finally, someone has posted some easy-to-digest actual facts:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...EU-budget.html

Regardless of your position, this should be useful. Puts the whole '£55M/day' number into context (i.e. it's wrong).

Originally Posted by hodgy0_2 (Post 11803863)

Okay, so we agree the 55 million a day is cherryicked because it does not include the rebate

You now cherrypick 35 million

But that still does not include the grants and various payments that we get back (which we would not get back if we left)

The final figure according to the article, accounting for all payments out, plus rebates and monies received is 18 million a day

I appreciate that won't change you view, but the debate would be best served if people did not cherrypick data

Originally Posted by hodgy0_2 (Post 11803863)

Okay, so we agree the 55 million a day is cherryicked because it does not include the rebate

You now cherrypick 35 million

But that still does not include the grants and various payments that we get back (which we would not get back if we left)

The final figure according to the article, accounting for all payments out, plus rebates and monies received is 18 million a day

I appreciate that won't change you view, but the debate would be best served if people did not cherrypick data

Originally Posted by alcazar (Post 11803886)

Seriously: if I asked you to pay a large amount of your salary into a bank account, then gave you 1/3 of it back, while giving the other 2/3 to someone who was saving up to undermine your retirement fund, would you do it? Would you give it to a dishonest person so they could more easily steal your car?

No? So WHY give it to Europe?????

Originally Posted by alcazar (Post 11803825)

It's STILL £35m a DAY, for heaven's sake?

What COULD we have for that????? SEVEN new large primaries per DAY. A new hospital in the regions per DAY, the Humber bridge debt written off quickly.
New roads etc in the regions..or repairs to those we have.

New railway lines. New trains. More police officers. More services...you know, the ones we pay council tax for? And no longer get many of:(

Are you even aware that ALL Osborne's cuts SO FAR have only given us savings of £44 billion, yet in the SAME TIME PERIOD we paid the EC £87 billion?????

It's lunacy.

VOTE OUT!!!!

And as for Thatcher's much vaunted rebate, I'm pretty sure it no longer exists. it's just the amount the EC gives us back, much as they give EVERY country something. http://forbritain.org/140518_eu_rebate_blair.pdf

But LOOK at the graph, for heaven's sake. HOW LONG can we, Germany, France, Holland, Italy and Sweden KEEP supporting basket cases like Spain and Greece? Keep throwing money at other countries, only to see our jobs cut again and again.

And don't even start on the ex-Eastern Bloc countries. RUSSIA put them in the sh!t they are in, NOT EUROPE!!! Hell, they didn't want to know us for fifty years!!!:mad: Let bloody Russia dig them out of the hole they are in. They think they are some rich world power. Let them show it.

Originally Posted by hodgy0_2 (Post 11803903)

Lol, your point still seems to be

I give £X to a (Gym, Golf Club - insert any club here) for membership and I am pissed of about it

And when someone points out you get access to the Course, the putting Greens, use of the driving range, subsidised food in the restaurant etc etc (the benefits of the membership fee)


And you simply say


I give £X for membership and I am pissed of about it - repeat ad infinitum

Originally Posted by alcazar (Post 11803989)

Simplistic argument.

I seem to be in a Golf Club which charges ME £3x, while giving £x to someone to join free and also slipping him another £x to put in his pocket?

Why on EARTH would I want to do that????????????

Would you? Because that seems to be what you are advocating?
Oh, and while I need to raise £3x for my subs, my children go without food one day a week and my house is falling down. It's laughable and you know it.

I mean, seriously, you are both scraping the barrel now:D

Originally Posted by neil-h (Post 11803995)

You both? :wonder: What you've complained about is exactly how taxation works.

Originally Posted by hodgy0_2 (Post 11804003)

Yes, in my wilder fantasies (my wealth/income comes mostly from the south and South east)

I wonder why i pay anything for the North of England, they contribute Fvck all tbh - the industry is a joke, most people live on "dole" street

They are a drain to me and my finances, I very rarely go there, - I have a 4x4 so am happy for zero investment in the road system and with the Tax saving I would make, I would pay for private health insurance should I be unfortunate enough to get ill whilst actually in the sh1t hole

Why London and the south of England continues to subsidies those feckless lazy northern w4nkers is a mystery

Apart from Scotland (they have Oil and my daughter is going to Edinburgh university)

Originally Posted by hodgy0_2 (Post 11804003)

Yes, in my wilder fantasies (my wealth/income comes mostly from the south and South east)

I wonder why i pay anything for the North of England, they contribute Fvck all tbh - the industry is a joke, most people live on "dole" street

They are a drain to me and my finances, I very rarely go there, - I have a 4x4 so am happy for zero investment in the road system and with the Tax saving I would make, I would pay for private health insurance should I be unfortunate enough to get ill whilst actually in the sh1t hole

Why London and the south of England continues to subsidies those feckless lazy northern w4nkers is a mystery

Apart from Scotland (they have Oil and my daughter is going to Edinburgh university)

Originally Posted by The Dogs B******s (Post 11803974)

This.:thumb:

Originally Posted by alcazar (Post 11803825)

It's STILL £35m a DAY, for heaven's sake?

What COULD we have for that????? SEVEN new large primaries per DAY. A new hospital in the regions per DAY, the Humber bridge debt written off quickly.
New roads etc in the regions..or repairs to those we have.

New railway lines. New trains. More police officers. More services...you know, the ones we pay council tax for? And no longer get many of:(

Are you even aware that ALL Osborne's cuts SO FAR have only given us savings of £44 billion, yet in the SAME TIME PERIOD we paid the EC £87 billion?????

It's lunacy.

VOTE OUT!!!!

And as for Thatcher's much vaunted rebate, I'm pretty sure it no longer exists. it's just the amount the EC gives us back, much as they give EVERY country something. http://forbritain.org/140518_eu_rebate_blair.pdf

But LOOK at the graph, for heaven's sake. HOW LONG can we, Germany, France, Holland, Italy and Sweden KEEP supporting basket cases like Spain and Greece? Keep throwing money at other countries, only to see our jobs cut again and again.

And don't even start on the ex-Eastern Bloc countries. RUSSIA put them in the sh!t they are in, NOT EUROPE!!! Hell, they didn't want to know us for fifty years!!!:mad: Let bloody Russia dig them out of the hole they are in. They think they are some rich world power. Let them show it.

Originally Posted by Martin2005 (Post 11804022)

It was reduced in 2009, but the figures quoted earlier take all of that into account.
')?

Originally Posted by Martin2005 (Post 11804022)

The UKs rebate is still very much alive and kicking (as your own link confirms).
It was reduced in 2009, but the figures quoted earlier take all of that into account.

But anyway, 'this' (I assume that for team Thicko, 'this' means 'something that I really want to believe')?

Originally Posted by Martin2005 (Post 11804020)

If he really gave a **** about these issues he'd be calling for tax increases.

Originally Posted by dpb (Post 11804041)

18 mill !!?

That wouldn't even do Alcazars front drive :p

Originally Posted by alcazar (Post 11804044)

I would gladly pay more tax if I could ALSO ensure that:
1. The taxes were spent fairly and inside the UK.
2. None was sent in foreign aid...not ONE PENNY while we are broke.
3. None of it ended up in greedy banker's pockets, likewise politicians.

You lot are trying to portray me as some sort of miser. It doesn't wash, I'm afraid.
I WOULD like to look after folk in the UK. It's like looking after your family first. Once they are alright, think about those outside the family.

But what you don't do, (unless you are such a liberal that your family don't matter), is give away the money that could help your family, to feckless strangers who have either mismanaged their lives or had them mismanaged for them and done nowt about it.

I give to homeless people on the streets in my town...but always ensure they are Brits before I give.

But no way would I give up huge sums of money to others if it meant my family didn't eat properly, have proper health care, lost their jobs, or were homeless.

Look, guys: we GET that you are good people. We GET that you care about others.:Whatever_

Just stop with the posturing.:nono:

As I said before, NONE of you would go so far as to harm your own.

And that's EXACTLY what the UK EC contribution does: takes from those in need here to give to those in need (by no fault of OURS) abroad.:brickwall

It has to stop.

VOTE OUT!!!!

Originally Posted by alcazar (Post 11804044)

I would gladly pay more tax if I could ALSO ensure that:
1. The taxes were spent fairly and inside the UK.
2. None was sent in foreign aid...not ONE PENNY while we are broke.
3. None of it ended up in greedy banker's pockets, likewise politicians.

You lot are trying to portray me as some sort of miser. It doesn't wash, I'm afraid.
I WOULD like to look after folk in the UK. It's like looking after your family first. Once they are alright, think about those outside the family.

But what you don't do, (unless you are such a liberal that your family don't matter), is give away the money that could help your family, to feckless strangers who have either mismanaged their lives or had them mismanaged for them and done nowt about it.

I give to homeless people on the streets in my town...but always ensure they are Brits before I give.

But no way would I give up huge sums of money to others if it meant my family didn't eat properly, have proper health care, lost their jobs, or were homeless.

Look, guys: we GET that you are good people. We GET that you care about others.:Whatever_

Just stop with the posturing.:nono:

As I said before, NONE of you would go so far as to harm your own.

And that's EXACTLY what the UK EC contribution does: takes from those in need here to give to those in need (by no fault of OURS) abroad.:brickwall

It has to stop.

VOTE OUT!!!!

Originally Posted by ditchmyster (Post 11804073)

I agree with a large part of your sentiment, but the bits I have put in bold is where you and the right in general lose support of the majority (at least on here) These people have no more say in what happens in their country than we did about whether or not to drop bombs on Iraq. Those feeling the need to leave their countries and come to the UK have indeed been effected by UK foreign policy. It's ours and other governments actions that have led us where we are today.

Simples.

All you're doing is responding (see jumping up and down like a lunatic) to the end result, you're not looking at the cause, you need to look across the Atlantic for that.

Trust me when I tell you that no matter what votes are cast it will come out in favour of IN, we ain't leaving the EU, EVER, not a cat in hells chance of that happening, it's just a big show, smoke and mirrors to keep you all happy. ;)

Originally Posted by alcazar (Post 11804044)

I would gladly pay more tax if I could ALSO ensure that:
1. The taxes were spent fairly and inside the UK.
2. None was sent in foreign aid...not ONE PENNY while we are broke.
3. None of it ended up in greedy banker's pockets, likewise politicians.

You lot are trying to portray me as some sort of miser. It doesn't wash, I'm afraid.
I WOULD like to look after folk in the UK. It's like looking after your family first. Once they are alright, think about those outside the family.

But what you don't do, (unless you are such a liberal that your family don't matter), is give away the money that could help your family, to feckless strangers who have either mismanaged their lives or had them mismanaged for them and done nowt about it.

I give to homeless people on the streets in my town...but always ensure they are Brits before I give.

But no way would I give up huge sums of money to others if it meant my family didn't eat properly, have proper health care, lost their jobs, or were homeless.

Look, guys: we GET that you are good people. We GET that you care about others.:Whatever_

Just stop with the posturing.:nono:

As I said before, NONE of you would go so far as to harm your own.

And that's EXACTLY what the UK EC contribution does: takes from those in need here to give to those in need (by no fault of OURS) abroad.:brickwall

It has to stop.

VOTE OUT!!!!

Originally Posted by Martin2005 (Post 11804115)

It's so short sighted to say we shouldn't give foreign aid, and help others. The current migrant crisis is a direct result of us ignoring the plight of others. We cannot live in a bubble, if we do nothing and follow the Alcazar model, then it will inevitably come back and bite us on the arse. History will just keep on repeating itself.

Originally Posted by ReallyReallyGoodMeat (Post 11804137)

But we have been giving foreign aid, and Europe is still a mess. How can you say foreign aid is useful when this is the result?

Originally Posted by ReallyReallyGoodMeat (Post 11804137)

But we have been giving foreign aid, and Europe is still a mess. How can you say foreign aid is useful when this is the result?

Originally Posted by ALi-B (Post 11804143)

Yep with nice big Union Jack labels stuck on the pallet packaging to advertise and make sure they know what a nice lovely giving country we are...

http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/med...429_de27-1.jpg

Makes me wonder if there is any relation to those squatting in Calais wanting to go the UK after already passing through a number of "safe" EU countries that would/could (should? ) grant asylum. i.e "who" is telling them to go to the UK for "refuge".