Tommy Robinson
I know we've got a thread talking about the child abuse case specifically, but I've been watching a lot of his videos recently and doing a bit of research into who he is and his beliefs.
Much of the debate seems focus on calling him a racist or a bigot and I'm not seeing any evidence of that. He is calling out Islam and his opinion of how they treat people, which on the surface seems logical. I agree with many of the points he raised and I'm perplexed by the lack of preparation or what appears to be common sense of those that oppose him. Trying to punch, attack, shout abuse isn't the best way to convince others he's spreading hate, in fact for me it does the opposite. Now I'm pretty open minded, I listen and watch all the protagonists online and I enjoy the shows they put on and the snow flakes they melt .. but I also agree with some of what they say and to be perfectly honest, most of what they say is fact based .. percentages etc. So in the interest of a mature conversation on SN, those in the know, with actual reasoning and fact, help me understand why Tommy Robinson is not a man I should be supporting? and before you ask .. no you don't have to convince me of anything, but if you feel strongly either way, I'd enjoy talking it through with you. |
One can always make selective quotes and state selective statistics and make a convincing argument. Be it climate change deniers, flat earthers, 911 theorists or anti Islam protagonists like Yaxley-Lenon, to use his real name, they can always put across a convincing argument when considered in isolation.
He's learnt that if he dresses well and talks more calmly, then his argument is more convincing, but he wasn't always like that. Have a look at his past and he wasn't such a nice guy! Ask yourself why he doesn't use his real name? But most of all, rather than just listening to his arguments, give equal time to the opposition arguments with an open mind. |
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Do you have any example of people who specifically speak out against him? Any names come to mind? |
Originally Posted by pimmo2000
(Post 12032127)
Do you have any example of people who specifically speak out against him? Any names come to mind? |
Originally Posted by BMWhere?
(Post 12032129)
Just Google him, there's not shortage of negative opinions about him.
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You'd have to be pretty unlucky to get arrested that many times wouldn't you |
I'd like to understand what he's actually trying to achieve.
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Originally Posted by Martin2005
(Post 12032135)
I'd like to understand what he's actually trying to achieve.
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Originally Posted by BMWhere?
(Post 12032121)
One can always make selective quotes and state selective statistics and make a convincing argument. Be it climate change deniers, flat earthers, 911 theorists or anti Islam protagonists like Yaxley-Lenon...
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Originally Posted by markjmd
(Post 12032169)
You mean what he's trying to achieve, aside from a very comfortable lifestyle for himself funded entirely off the back of his carefully constructed celebrity through notorierity persona, and precious little in the way of any actual work? He probably know and cares even less than you or I do :rolleyes:
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Originally Posted by pimmo2000
(Post 12032131)
I can find plenty of positive too, im more interested in yours and why you're against him .. what is it specifically Basically, his arguments pretty much come down to the Islamification of the west and his fear thereof. ow of course it is almost certainly true that Islam as a religion would like to expand and the west is a prime candidate for expansion. But this is true for all religions and has always been the case. How many times have you had Jehovahs Witnesses or other Christian groups come to your door to try and convert you to their strand of religion. Look at organisations like Christian Aid or CAFOD and how they like to bundle bibles with aid packages in non-Christian countries and in some cases have even refused aid until the locals convert to Christianity. Basically, all strains of all religion are constantly trying to increase their membership and its something that has been going on both peacefully and violently for eternity. Britain was after all once Pagan until the Romans post Constantine forced Catholicism on us, then came Henry 8th who couldn't get a divorce from the pope so created his own religion and attempted to wipe out Catholicism from the land! Pre-Constantine, the Romans persecuted the Christians, post-Constantine, Christianity was forced on the people throughout the Roman empire. Look at the crusade's, the forced conversion to Christianity in the Americas, Nazi persecution of the Jews, the Catholic/Protestant based conflict in Northern Ireland, the conflict of Shea/Sunni Muslims throughout the Muslim world, the recent persecution of the Rohingya in Myanmar and this week in the news the Internment of Muslims in China's Xinjiang province. Throughout history all religions have used all possible means to expand or defend their theology against other religious groups. So, do we really need to fear the Islamifaction of the west, maybe, but based on history, probably not and being really honest, all the religions have probably got more to fear about Atheism. So, specific to Yaxley-Lenon, he's singling out Islam, but his points are pretty much true of any religious group to varying extents. The method of his arguments is primarily to raise fear and discredit the Muslim faith. Arguments such as child abuse being part of the doctrine and how the doctrine calls all Muslims to arms to fight against the infidels are his favourites. Of course Christian child abuse is equally prolific and the Bible has also be used many times to justify violence against other religions. He argues about Islamic extremists use of violence to spread Islam to the west, yet rather hypocritically is also promoting extremist violence against Muslims. If you do a bit of research on Hitler and the Nazi parties tactics to turn the German public against the Jews, particularly in their early years with the Munich beer hall speeches, the arguments and tactics are strikingly similar. Then we can get onto is character in general. Look into his history of football violence, criminal convictions, all the different alias's hes used over the years, membership of BNP, foundation of the EDL etc. He's really not a nice person and that alone is enough to discredit his viewpoint or at least hold him with a great deal of skepticism. |
Originally Posted by dpb
(Post 12032133)
You'd have to be pretty unlucky to get arrested that many times wouldn't you
Originally Posted by Martin2005
(Post 12032135)
I'd like to understand what he's actually trying to achieve.
Originally Posted by BMWhere?
(Post 12032188)
The fact that you've invested some much listening to his rhetoric without seeing what he's like for yourself, gives me little hope that any argument here will convince you otherwise, but here goes.
Originally Posted by BMWhere?
(Post 12032188)
Basically, his arguments pretty much come down to the Islamification of the west and his fear thereof. ow of course it is almost certainly true that Islam as a religion would like to expand and the west is a prime candidate for expansion. But this is true for all religions and has always been the case. How many times have you had Jehovahs Witnesses or other Christian groups come to your door to try and convert you to their strand of religion. Look at organisations like Christian Aid or CAFOD and how they like to bundle bibles with aid packages in non-Christian countries and in some cases have even refused aid until the locals convert to Christianity. Basically, all strains of all religion are constantly trying to increase their membership and its something that has been going on both peacefully and violently for eternity.
Originally Posted by BMWhere?
(Post 12032188)
<removed general religious opinions> So, specific to Yaxley-Lenon, he's singling out Islam, but his points are pretty much true of any religious group to varying extents. The method of his arguments is primarily to raise fear and discredit the Muslim faith. Arguments such as child abuse being part of the doctrine and how the doctrine calls all Muslims to arms to fight against the infidels are his favourites. Of course Christian child abuse is equally prolific and the Bible has also be used many times to justify violence against other religions. He argues about Islamic extremists use of violence to spread Islam to the west, yet rather hypocritically is also promoting extremist violence against Muslims. If you do a bit of research on Hitler and the Nazi parties tactics to turn the German public against the Jews, particularly in their early years with the Munich beer hall speeches, the arguments and tactics are strikingly similar.
Originally Posted by BMWhere?
(Post 12032188)
Then we can get onto is character in general. Look into his history of football violence, criminal convictions, all the different alias's hes used over the years, membership of BNP, foundation of the EDL etc. He's really not a nice person and that alone is enough to discredit his viewpoint or at least hold him with a great deal of skepticism. I'm definitely missing something .. I only heard about him recently, the far left or right are both areas I avoid.
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Originally Posted by pimmo2000
(Post 12032192)
You've made the effort to reply, which I appreciate but in the first sentence you do exactly what I've been highlighting and try to insult my intelligence. You don't know me, you don't know my back ground but you felt the need to try and have a dig. As I said you're not trying to convince me of anything, I'm not a supporter.
Originally Posted by pimmo2000
(Post 12032192)
Is that true though? in my life time I have never been impacted by any other religion, apart from door knockers.. Islam has made my life harder, be that in the closeness of the Manchester bombing or the restrictions now on travel. I think you're heading the wrong way with the argument, I'm not looking for your take on religion, it's his approach and why you dislike him I'm after.
As for the take on religion, you can't really ignore the religious angle as its the basis for his arguments. He is after all a self proclaimed anti-islamist!
Originally Posted by pimmo2000
(Post 12032192)
Ok so this is a valid point, this is the detail I'm looking for. So you believe (and I don't agree/disagree) his actions are to fuel his strength uniting people through fear, rather than a concern for peoples safety. That's a logical way of looking at it .. what has he done to make you think this specifically .. are there hate crimes you know about? (I'm asking)
Originally Posted by pimmo2000
(Post 12032192)
His criminal history to be honest is pretty tame, he's had a few fights, but nothing that I can see related to race or hate crimes? and nothing to put him on the radar like he is ..
Robinson was jailed for assault in 2005, has convictions for drugs offences and public order offences, was jailed in 2012 for illegally entering the United States using a false passport and jailed again in 2014 for a £160,000 mortgage fraud Personally, my criminal history comes down to a couple of speeding tickets. Violence, fraud, drugs offences and illegal passports sounds pretty serious to me! |
To be fair, I'm not judging him against "normal" people, I'm looking at the amount of hate he generates ..none of his crimes (again that are easily read about) are worthy of that.
I can see your point though about the IRA, but realistically that enforces the message he's dishing out that religion is dangerous and you find more average Muslims (none fundamentalist) believe in Sharia law including the male dominance and cruel customs. The pain and hurt caused by them, is something (if you listen to him) he is trying to avoid. So for the record my view is that you should live to the laws of the country within which with you reside. If you decide to add more laws to your life, then fine, as long as they do not impose on the laws, or lives of anyone in that country, Sharia law does. I do not believe Sharia in it's brutal forms should be accepted here, and this is were my opinions of Tommy are muddied .. because I've read the good and the bad about Sharia law.. and I agree with a lot of what he says when he talks about it. Of course my dislike of Sharia law ends with those who take it to the extreme and I support anyone's right to practice (as I said above) within the laws of the country. People react to the horror stories as he knows they will, with fear and anger .. but is he wrong? is it a risk? |
Originally Posted by pimmo2000
(Post 12032218)
To be fair, I'm not judging him against "normal" people, I'm looking at the amount of hate he generates ..none of his crimes (again that are easily read about) are worthy of that.
I can see your point though about the IRA, but realistically that enforces the message he's dishing out that religion is dangerous and you find more average Muslims (none fundamentalist) believe in Sharia law including the male dominance and cruel customs. The pain and hurt caused by them, is something (if you listen to him) he is trying to avoid. So for the record my view is that you should live to the laws of the country within which with you reside. If you decide to add more laws to your life, then fine, as long as they do not impose on the laws, or lives of anyone in that country, Sharia law does. I do not believe Sharia in it's brutal forms should be accepted here, and this is were my opinions of Tommy are muddied .. because I've read the good and the bad about Sharia law.. and I agree with a lot of what he says when he talks about it. Of course my dislike of Sharia law ends with those who take it to the extreme and I support anyone's right to proactice (as I said above) within the laws of the country. |
Originally Posted by Martin2005
(Post 12032221)
These views are held by the vast majority of the population, so I'm still not sure what role TR thinks he's playing. Unless you think we all need educating on something we're already fully aware of?
and now we're back to the question .. what is he trying to do? |
Originally Posted by pimmo2000
(Post 12032222)
Ah you quoted me before I corrected my phones attempt at the reply .. lol
and now we're back to the question .. what is he trying to do? It doesn't seem to have any kind of solution to the issue he keeps highlighting either |
true ...
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tommy robinson the english mans equivilent to ahmed choudry
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Originally Posted by pimmo2000
(Post 12032219)
So for the record my view is that you should live to the laws of the country within which with you reside. If you decide to add more laws to your life, then fine, as long as they do not impose on the laws, or lives of anyone in that country, Sharia law does. I do not believe Sharia in it's brutal forms should be accepted here, and this is were my opinions of Tommy are muddied .. because I've read the good and the bad about Sharia law.. and I agree with a lot of what he says when he talks about it. Of course my dislike of Sharia law ends with those who take it to the extreme and I support anyone's right to practice (as I said above) within the laws of the country.
I really don't know if Yaxley-Lennon is cleverly using his tripe to gain fame and wealth or if he genuinely believes what he's saying and just wants to educate the people as some sort of civic duty. Either way, it changes nothing for me - his rhetoric is dangerous and misguided. |
Have a look at the videos of Tommy going to confront people calling him a Nazi or white supremacist .. interesting that people are all talk an opinion behind a keyboard. Regardless if it's right or wrong.
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Originally Posted by pimmo2000
(Post 12032583)
Have a look at the videos of Tommy going to confront people calling him a Nazi or white supremacist .. interesting that people are all talk an opinion behind a keyboard. Regardless if it's right or wrong.
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Originally Posted by markjmd
(Post 12032610)
The guy has multiple convictions for assault, most of which came about precisely when others expressed a difference of opinions with him. You find it surprising that people are now reluctant to do so to his face?
If I call you a ****, and you come over in the pub I expect to have to defend or explain myself .. why do we allow people to hide behind papers and words, if you're going to comment on someone, have the balls to say it to their face and more importantly the facts to back it up. |
Originally Posted by pimmo2000
(Post 12032612)
Yes, if they are willing to do it via a paper. He goes in with a camera and one camera man, they are in a crowded office. They're perfectly safe but they don't have the detail to back it up. This pissed me off, if they are right and from what I can tell they are .. where is the evidence.
If I call you a ****, and you come over in the pub I expect to have to defend or explain myself .. why do we allow people to hide behind papers and words, if you're going to comment on someone, have the balls to say it to their face and more importantly the facts to back it up. https://www.counter-currents.com/201...on-is-a-fraud/ Sky Views: Why take the tape off Tommy Robinson's mouth? Tommy Robinson’s ‘massive’ jail bonus: publicity | News | The Sunday Times Whether or not he's really a Nazi or white supremacist seems quite irrelevant now. |
Originally Posted by markjmd
(Post 12032627)
All current evidence seems to point to TR being nothing more than a controversy whore (albeit a rather successful one, at that), whose driving ambition is simply to rake in as much donated cash as possible. If you don't believe me, take a look at the links below, from people on the alt-right who believe he's lost all credibility, and from news sources confirming just how much he's raking in from deliberately getting himself arrested:
https://www.counter-currents.com/201...on-is-a-fraud/ Sky Views: Why take the tape off Tommy Robinson's mouth? Tommy Robinson’s ‘massive’ jail bonus: publicity | News | The Sunday Times Whether or not he's really a Nazi or white supremacist seems quite irrelevant now. |
Originally Posted by pimmo2000
(Post 12032634)
So.. now we hate him because he's making money from publicity stunts, not because he's a racist?
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The problem with these debates is everyone assumes because I'm not hating him, I'm supporting him and in the case of Tommy as has been shown here the reasoning for the distain changes to suit the response. Why do you hate him? Because he's using racial segregation to make himself rich? If so you're giving him a lot of credit in such a long term plan .. I agree with both sides only I won't entertain an arguement unless it's backed by facts .. and for this thread I'm interested in the facts that caused the hate. Honestly I'm not see any.. it's opinion and suggestion. |
Originally Posted by pimmo2000
(Post 12032657)
The problem with these debates is everyone assumes because I'm not hating him, I'm supporting him and in the case of Tommy as has been shown here the reasoning for the distain changes to suit the response. Why do you hate him? Because he's using racial segregation to make himself rich? If so you're giving him a lot of credit in such a long term plan .. I agree with both sides only I won't entertain an arguement unless it's backed by facts .. and for this thread I'm interested in the facts that caused the hate. Honestly I'm not see any.. it's opinion and suggestion. Oh, and you still haven't answered the question. What do you think TR is really trying to achieve? |
Because of the attacks and threats on his life and his family. If You dislike someone you don't know based on media reports I challenge that reasoning. What's his plan is? I have no idea. |
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