Well, I don't consider the EU a devil at all, so it's a moot point IMO.

As for your subsequent points, we have covered them before and Martin has just covered it now, and for immigration, you could look at this.

watch this

When the American President voiced his opinions regarding the EU membership, it's clear he did it in the interest of the US and not for the UK to promote TTIP and so as to deal with Europe as one block. When he states that the UK "will go back to the back of the queue" for trade negotiations, what queue? Was that a threat or a promise from one of our "closest" allies? And would the US do that with the 5th largest economy in the world, the UK is not some small insignificant economy/country? If it is the case, well then so much for that "special relationship" and no longer will the UK be seen as the US's "lapdog" and so readily follow them into wars! (especially if Trump becomes president!!!)

As for guarantees in or out, nothing is guaranteed, even Cameron's renegotiated terms as they are not yet binding and has yet to obtained agreement across all member states ratified under a treaty. The ultimate aim of the EU is for ever closer political and economic union, I don't see the UK being able to prevent an inevitable integration in the future of a federalised European state. I don't seen any advantages in maintaining the status quo, especially given the state of the EU is currently in. I was on the fence for a while, but the more digging I do, the more I erring on the side of wanting out...

Any relationship we have with the EU states will have deteriorated. We have lost all sympathy with the EU members by holding this referendum regardless of the outcome. How this translates if we stay in when it comes to "leading" the EU in debates, legislation, economic policies and political clout with other member states will quite possibly have diminished significantly anyway. There are unknowns either side of the fence. Chances of changing/reforming the EU within are, in my opinion, is zero. Sometimes it's better to strike out on your own for a chance to make things better, if we fail, at least we had that chance.

If we fail at least we had that chance? This is the UK economy you are talking about, not losing a tenner on a dodgy tip from a mate.

If Brexit offered a bright future, I would be all for it. I accept it might be better, but there is an equal chance that it might be the same economically as it is now, or worse. So in reality, it is a one in 3 chance of being better.

Staying in the EU offers the same odds, but more importantly, you will have none of the upheaval of leaving, we still have a say in how things go.

There is some speculation that he was requested to use that precise phrase, but a bit of a clanger was dropped as the American equivalent would be 'back of the line'.

I am under no illusion that leaving the EU will be all bright and breezy and full of prosperity. Equally neither do I believe the UK will fall into complete disrepair and be abandoned by the G8/EU nations. I accept that there will very likely be short term shock to our economy while we all, UK, EU and the rest of our current trading partners, adjust to the change. Our economy has seen through a number major economic crisis in the past and the economy has always recovered, only this time we will no longer be obligated to bail out any other failing economies.

In all honesty, no one really knows exactly how it will all pan out if we left the EU, but we can go by what we know and observe. We all know the direction that the EU is heading and to me that looks equally bad if not worse than being out of the EU. Whilst remaining in the EU will have no immediate change, make no mistake, we're simply prolonging the inevitable, a change is coming and the UK will have less of say in the EU the more the EU becomes more tightly integrated with all the other 27 member states. No one on the pro EU camp are singing the praises for an ever closer and more integrated political and economic union with the EU. Whilst it used to be advantageous in being in the EU, those advantages are now somewhat diminished and are diminishing, there is no bright future to remain in the EU either and that is very much a “definite”.

Ah, so it's just fear, in your case then?:thumb:

Il keep this sweet and simple. OUT.

No, there's just no point in the upheaval for something that is very likely pretty much as good or bad as we have now. That's not fear, it's just good sense.

If you can prove to me we will be better off, fair enough. However, you can't. I think we do well out of the EU, you don't, they are opinions and I appreciate that, but whether you think we would be better off out of it or not, you cannot give an accurate post Brexit picture.

And before you start, it is not the same as voting to go in as entry to the EU was, and is, clearly defined.

You're also making the assumption there that a remain vote will be business as usual. This is wrong. A remain vote is putting your foot on the accelerator of EU interference and assimilation into a United States of Europe. "You voted for more Europe", "you gave us the mandate" will be the claim. And do you think that after almost ruining the EU project, they will be passing lasw in the UKs interest. Like fvck they will. They are already trying to regulate the City of London into the ground, destroying an industry of vital importance to the UK. They will only redouble their efforts.

We are at the docks and we need to set sail, are you choosing the Queen Mary or the Titanic? A tried and tested way, or one where you're told that normal rules don't apply and full steam ahead, never mind the icebergs? How's that going for the Eurozone? Every sane person said you cant jam rich and poor countries together under one currency. It'll be fine said the Eurozone/Titantic captains - full steam ahead. Well, they hit the iceberg of reality.

And now you want to climb aboard. Not only that, but you want to drag us with you. No thanks, open your eyes to where its all heading and VOTE LEAVE

leave and spend our membership on our own country, national debt cleared by 2030 what more reason do you need to leave

How about importing more low skilled people means that wages are suppressed, there is a housing shortage, we cant stop EU criminals coming to the country, major diseases are on the rise as a direct result of unchecked immigration, the NHS cant cope, there are no school places, the roads are falling apart because of more traffic and no more money, and you get called a racist for saying this is a bad idea! And you pay £10/billion a year for the priviledge

For 0.6 of the GDP ?
I'd say that's an absolute steal!

You'd pay 0.6% of GDP to have all those bad things?

You really must be crackers...or taking the p*ss?

·
So I gather they think it’s game over. The Bremainers think they have bombed us into submission. They think that we have just seen the turning point in the referendum campaign, and that the British people are so intimidated by these testimonials – American presidents, business leaders, fat cats of every description – that they now believe the British people will file meekly to the polls in two months time and consent to stay in the EU; and thereby to the slow and insidious erosion of democracy in this country.
If that is indeed the view of the Remain campaign, they are crowing too soon. They are perhaps ignoring the resilience and thoughtfulness of many middle-of-the-roaders. One senior public servant – a man of no political party, and who had previously been on the fence – texted me after the US intervention and said he had been so outraged at President Obama’s “back of the queue” remark that he had instantly decided to vote Leave.
But let us suppose that the Bremainers are right in their complacency. Let’s imagine that we all wake up on June 24, and discover that the people have indeed been so cowed and so perplexed by the scare stories that they voted to Remain. What then? There will be instant jubilation in Brussels, of course; champagne corks going off like Tchaikovsky’s 1812 overture. Among the vast clerisy of lobbyists and corporate affairs gurus – all the thousands of Davos men and women who have their jaws firmly clamped around the euro-teat – there will be relief. Things will go on as they are; indeed, things will go into overdrive.
For more than a year now, Brussels has been in a self-imposed lockdown. Nothing must be done to frighten the children. The British referendum – that embarrassing and tedious genuflection to democracy – must be safely won; and then they will get their plans out of the drawer and get on with the business of building a federal superstate.
You may have noticed, however, that the euro crisis is far from over, and that the EU remains a gigantic engine of job destruction. Eight years after the disaster began, it is obvious that the problem is structural, not cyclical. In Spain, Portugal and Greece, a whole generation of young people has been sacrificed to the Moloch of the euro – and they are still on the dole. The Greeks are unable to pay their debts; the Italian banks have a €360 billion black hole.
In response, the EU plans “more Europe”, a fiscal and political union, in which Britain would inevitably be involved.
Remember we were told we wouldn’t have to pay for the Greek bail-outs? And then we did? According to the European Commission’s Five Presidents’ Report, which lays out plans to shore up the euro, the Commission wants to have a new European approach to company law, to property rights, to every aspect of employment law. Why? Because if the Germans are to be persuaded to engage in a perpetual bankrolling of the less prosperous regions of the EU, then they want proper Germanic rules to enforce good behaviour. He who pays the piper calls the tune. And Brussels can see only one way to save the euro – and that is to get Germany to pay, and therefore to allow Germany to call the tune.
Remember that twice in the last five years, the EU has removed a democratically elected government – in Italy and Greece – and installed Brussels-approved technocrats. It is a narcotic tyranny. They want to go on with the work of building a unitary state, in a way that is anti-democratic and ultimately very dangerous, since it will one day provoke real public anger.
Britain should not be involved in any of this – and yet we have absurdly and inexcusably given up our veto rights; and the whole process is going to be conducted within the “single market” – that is, the existing EU structures – so that we are morally and legally comprised, and share all the ensuing political and economic damage.
Inch by inch, month by month, the sausage machine of EU law-making will extrude more laws – at a rate of 2,500 a year, or perhaps even faster, once the referendum is out of the way. More and more people will exercise their unfettered rights to come to this country, putting more pressure on our public services. And eventually – when we are unable to take it any more – the UK will utter a faint sheepish cough of protest. Please sir, we will say, raising our hand in the EU Council, we need reform. And eyebrows will shoot up in a Batemanesque way. REFORM? they will say, in the tones of Lady Bracknell. REFORM? But you just had reform…
If there is one thing that proves the folly of remaining in the EU – in the hope that we can change things from within – it is the tragic poverty of that deal. The Prime Minister asked to restore social and employment legislation to national control; for a complete opt-out from the Charter of Fundamental rights; to stop the European court adjudicating on UK criminal law; to ensure that immigrants have a job offer before entering the UK; to revise the Working Time directive to protect the NHS; to reform the Common Agricultural Policy and the structural funds; and full-on Treaty change. What did we get? Two thirds of diddly squat.
We need to talk about that deal in the weeks ahead, because it shows how contemptuously we will be treated if we vote to remain. This is the last chance, in our lifetimes, to take back control – of £350m a week (and use some of that cash to deliver a seven-day NHS) – and the last chance to take back control of our democracy.
Of course the elites want to remain. They will always have power. The losers are the hundreds of millions of Europeans whose only power is their vote – their ability to sack their governments at elections. That power is being taken away. It is indefensible, and it will lead to real trouble. We can be stronger, richer, more influential if we vote Leave. In believing that we can all be scared into thinking otherwise, the Remainers are fatally underestimating the British public.

Well said, Boris :thumb:

That's complete speculation.

Supose the question is also out there, would UK leaving cause rest of the EU to collapse?

Have you forgotten so quickly that some of the banks had plans on how to exit Scotland if they exited the UK? What do you think will happen to them if we exit the EU? What do you think will happen to Nissan, who wanted to set up a site within the EU, they chose Britain. Where exactly is the rationale for them staying here and facing the same issues they had before?


The laughable thing about the Leave campaign is that they highlight the issues within the EU, but absolutely deny that any issues would exist out of it.


As a ship analogy, I would prefer to be on a large ship that is better able to handle an issue than the refugee death trap you propose ;)

from that comment i take it you haven't watched the video and have a poor grasp of maths. coming out and putting the money into our own system means better healthcare betters roads etc etc and don't forget for every pound spent by the workers the goverment get's 20% back in vat and that's after tax has been paid on wages

Well its one , or , the other lol

gold will surge ,at least, if we get out, :thumb:

I take it from that statement you have a poor grasp of the use of the term 'speculation'. :thumb:

There are a multitude of chains of events that could occur which will mean you're lovely idea of what will happen post Brexit will never actually come to fruition.

But yours will?

wot!!!

are you suggesting that some random bloke on a TV discussion show hasn't just solved the national debt using only the fingers of both hands

I suspect the worlds economist are beating a path to his door as we speak

I mean what's so hard!!!

next he will probably cure cancer

Prosper outside of EU regulation

Seeing as they predicted disaster if we didn't join the Euro, I couldn't care less. Their predictive powers are crap. They have just invested in Juke production knowing the referendum is on its way. They are just talk. Toyota on the other hand... http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1afaf414-b...5c9a029fb.html

Straw man. No-one is saying everything will be solved overnight. Brexit is saying it is a necessary step in the right direction, better for Britain.

Yeah its your full steam ahead approach ignoring common sense that the Titanic captain would be proud of.

That's not what I was saying and you know it.

Do I? You seem to be calling all the OUT agitators' thoughts into question, yet you can't know any better? So what DID you mean?

I was merely providing a counterpoint to what madscoob said. There's a lot of questionable statements being bandied around as fact (by both sides of the argument) and it helps to remind people of that every once in a while.

Interesting article on the whole 'controlling our borders' Brexit argument...


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36148299