We don't have public hangings,bear baiting,slavery or send kids down coal mines.
Civilised cultures evolve over time to enable their people to develop to the best of their ability without fear or persecution.

The practise is abhorrent and I would never, ever to be able to accept or even try to understand the reasoning behind it. I first heard about it maybe 5 years ago from a TV documentary (the BBC does do some good things). I vividly remember them talking about the type III FGM in the link f1 provided and feeling sick to the pit of my stomach. Also the use of IIRC water reactive metal filings to burn/scar everything over.........just can't imagine the physical pain and psychological damage this brings :( . Let's hope it can be stopped - I think the legislation has been in place for many years but has been ignored. It really does boil my blood with use of police resources on soft targets (e.g. motorists) and the do naff all about this. I know it is not as simple as that, but let's have some proactive work. I too hope it is the first of many prosecutions. The obvious difficulty is that many go on 'holiday' back to Africa for the procedure.

Surely only a misogynist could presume any equivalence between FGM and male circumcision.
Such blatant lack of respect is lamentable IMO.

The two things are not comparable at all.

Look at it this way

1)We often perform circumcisions for medical reasons, not so for FGM

2) Circumcisions are not used to control the sexual freedoms of males as FGM is for females.

Has FGM or the after-effects ever cropped up at work Ding?

There are FGM committing gangs hanging about in the UK in an underground way, apparently. Usually the older ladies within those communities, I hear.

Yes, it appears to be quite open within the communities involved but of course it remains within that community.

Apparently, yes. All those gangsters should be tortured to their slow death.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume you were drunk when you typed this?

Lamentable?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...ion-criticised

So doing this to men for the sakes of culture/tradition/religion is OK?

WTF are you on about?
Removing someones foreskin and FGM are the same?
Maybe you should read up a little and while you're at it, I would recommend something other than the Guardian.

And you should read that report. MGM does exist. And it does happen, yet it plays second fiddle. When it should be equal.

Pretty much all FGM happens in other countries, like the ones listed in my link where MGM also takes place. UK children are taken over there rather than their families risk it in the UK - knowing it is illegal here.

"The website highlights the malice that bedevils this rich cultural practice. It does not condemn this rich cultural practice but makes a clear plea for it to be regulated so that deaths do not occur."

No condemnation but hey the "rich cultural practice" line makes it OK then?

It is in some countries. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18793842

Male circumcision is occasionally necessary for medical reasons.

It has to be done carefully, since the remains of the foreskin have to remain attached at the underside, known, IIRC as the frenum. Cutting at that point would reduce sensation to the head of the penis.

A circumcised male is no different to an uncircumcised one as regards orgasm etc, except that he can often "go" for longer.......

Doesn't answer my point.

There are those on here now abhoring this practice, where they have supported cultural and religious differences being allowed in the UK in past posts.

CAN you pick and choose?

Well I guess this confirms that you weren't drunk!


Your logic is baffling..

So if someone thinks we're all better off trying to be tollerant of one anothers religious and cultural needs, then they are defacto in favour of FGM?

OK let's extend that logic shall we...

You are self confessed in your intollerance of other religions and cultures, therefore you should be OK with barbaric child abuse in the name of that intollerance

Surely all christians are fully supportive of the activities of the KKK? All Muslims are supprters of Al Queda?

So you YES you can pick and choose


Why do you keep posting things on here without thinking them through first?

Much like amputation of limbs or removal of teeth; A last resort that should be avoided and only done as a very last resort (unfortunately the medical world still prefers it as a first or second resort - based on outdated research). Now if someone chopped off your finger for sakes of religion, regardless of sex, you'd not be happy, and that's my whole point - for something like this to happen to anyone of any sex WITHOUT THEIR CONSENT is an abhorrent act. Its equally abhorrant for someone to be brainwashed into thinking it should be done and is ok, and I'll conceed there are limits to excusing a person's lack of autonomy for sakes of being part of the herd (i.e if you choose to have it done, then its your own silly fault if you then subsequently find out that you should have been left as evolution intended).

With regards to the practice in the UK and USA and other western countries, it has been common place where too much foreskin is removed, and the direct result of that is loss of sensitivity as well as other issues. Call it bad practice, call it bad training on those who perform it, or blame it on whatever religious nutjob who says that it should be like that. But because its accepted in our culture it is therefore all ok. Much like FGM is accepted in other countries.

And thats where I abhore the hypocrisy where UK culture condemns FGM whilst simultanely supporting and allowing amputation of parts of a baby male's genitalia for no medical reason.

Picking and choosing. Yes you are quite right UK cultures and religions does pick and choose what it thinks is acceptable. I've chosen, and condemn it outright for any sex, age or race, regardless of it bring considered more severe for one sex to the other - the measure of severity or personal impact shouldn't be used as a quantative excuse to say its allowable.


Its a pity that the majority subscribe to the social norms rather than apply cold logic on their own accord. But that's herd behaviour for you - c'est la vie.

Seen a few, you wouldn't want to know the details. Also seen a few surgical reversals of FGM in the Somalian population.

In severity, no, but I can see where Ali is coming from here and I don't think he should be shot down for his views.

I'm no expert in either, but if a child is being subjected to a 'procedure' that isn't medically necessary and done purely based on religious/cultural grounds, I don't think it's right.

This shouldn't turn into a competition over which is worse ffs. I doubt most parents on here would see their child go through any operation carried out by even the best surgeons (due to the potential pain and any risks/future problems) unless it was absolutely necessary, so I don't see why Ali is getting such a hard time here.

Totally agree lisa

And if a persons only argument is one of "equivalence", well pathetic really

But you are the one saying they are equivalent.
That is what you are saying isn't it?
You talk on the one hand about a male baby at 3 days of age having its foreskin removed.
You compare this with females having clitoridectomies and worse?
Not only are the anatomical/physical consequences of vastly different implication - the socio-psychological consequences to the lives of women involved in this procedure are even more profound. Do you think women should be servile objects?
In your making any kind of comparison between the two, must say I find you indifference to their plight slightly menacing.
Maybe you should just start a separate thread about male circumcision if you are that bothered about it?
It goes without saying that I don't think you are right to trivialise FGM in this way.

+1 :thumb:

What you MEANT to say was, "I've got no answer to that question, so I'll sidestep and try an insult instead".

Answer the question.

YOU are one of the MOST vociferous about allowing folk to come here and have their own culture, their own beliefs.

How, then, do you reconcile that stance with picking and choosing what you think we should allow?

Obviously I'm totally in favour of most types of mutilation and child abuse, so long as they are done in the name of religion and/or culture.

BTW I did answer your really crass and poorly thought out point, but you have chosen to ignore it. Probably because it points out the idiocy of your thinking.

I guess at some point rather than retract/apologise, you'll just do your old trick of saying 'that got you going didn't it' and try and pretend it was all a wind up?

I need pictures before i can share my views...

Google FGM images, if you're that interested. It's not hard to Google.

It's a lot harder to look at the pictures though :(

Christ, I wish I hadn't bothered.

Exactly.

That's why asking for such pictures on SN forum is making a mockery of the pain those FGM women suffer. I'm aware that female body parts and genitals are often openly discussed here for male titillation, but this thread doesn't seem to be right for it.

I like Robsy, and he didn't exactly say that he wanted anyone to post FGM pictures here, but let's admit that when anyone says "I need to see pictures to comment", this usually means that one would like to be introduced to one on the thread.

However, he can cringe now via Google.

I would like to think the women who inflict this brutal act on young women / girls remember the pain and suffering they went through and over the next several generations this would die out like religious bigotry, thankfully that's fading every new generation, as children are becoming more integrated and more intelligent to question their parents beliefs.