Either way crop farming is STILL ecologically damaging. Barking about quantity won't change that; With the rate of population growth we will need more and more farmland. Even if its for direct consumption by humans; it has to expand.

Unless we control population........Or invent food replicators that run off fecal matter. Even if we culled every farm animal today and used crops for human consumption, with the rate of global population growth we'll be in the same situation now in future years to come. All meat production does is make this ineveitable problem come to light sooner - pressing for better solutions now rather than later (or population control ;) ).



Don't forget we are starting to turn to crops for fuel production as well which opens up another can of worms.

Oh, I dunno..........some of my early morning f*rts, now THEY are meaty...........:D

But quantity is crucial to the argument :rolleyes:

If direct crop consumption utilises 10% of the crop land for fodder then this would make a massive difference ecologically!!

Your latter point is very well made. The WHO thinks that fuel crops will be a huge ecological disaster and probably the biggest driver of food shortage in developing countries in coming years.

Well this is where the re education is needed , a burger isnt a meal, its a shoite snack !

Supersize Me!!!! :D

Vitamin B12 derives from bacteria and fungi and is not inherent in meat. It ends up in meat as a by-product through animals grazing and consuming B12 . Herbivorous gorillas don't have problems with B12 in the wild, but can end up deficient when in captivity and eating food provided by humans. The zoo gorillas' and our diet is too sanitised to obtain B12 naturally, so one alternative source is animal derived food (meat, eggs, etc), but that doesn't mean that's the 'natural' way for humans to obtain B12. Fortified cerials and so on can provide enough B12 to fulfil our requirements. Our ancestors would have got plenty from their unwashed fruit etc.

I think it's pretty well documented that vegetarians have longer life expectancy than omnivorous. Some say that's socio-economic, but is that cause or effect? ;) Where was IQ mentioned?

Why can't these people just accept that the world has a finite life and that pretty much anything we do as humans, will make naff all difference in the grand scheme of things.

Buy a hybrid, drink your own piss and don't eat meat if it makes you feel good about yourself. Just don't expect other people to be as stupid you! :razz:

No one mentioned the reduction in greenhouse gases if we got rid of all the animals for consumption ?

;)

You do come out with some nonsense sometimes Les :thumb:

Again, its about balance and common sense, eat meat but do so in moderation for your own health and also the ecological side of it.

I also think that stuff like Burgers and whatever fits in well with ecology as otherwise a lot of the stuff would get wasted so all those that get precious about the odd Burger should get on with it, as for the health side, we live too long anyway which is part of the problem, all the advice is leading us into having "creaking gates" troffing Flora Pro-active and turning up at the Doctors every week until their nineties.

One problem I find with food, particularly in the states is the ammount of waste, order a meal in a restaurant over there and an eight stone woman gets given the same ammount fo food as a 30 stone bloater, millions of tonnes of food goes in the bin, with all our austerity measures kicking in perhaps people should think twice before binning that three quid pack of Taste the Difference Baby Corn because its an hour out of date, get it down you, we have all got too used to plentiful food and think nothing of throwing vast ammounts away, my missus knows someone who spends £300 a week at M and S for three of them and eats out two or three times a week, bins most of it, just buys it in case she needs it, I think that is criminal, ok she can afford it but that is much more irresponsible that people eating sensible ammounts of meat.

My sister was a veggie for YEARS

from about the age of 13 up until 23, she got really drunk, ordered a pizza and they sent the wrong one, half way through she said "oooooooooo what is this nice biege type stuff"

"Thats chicken" :lol1:
"****! its nice" :lol1:


She has ate meat ever since :lol1:

Strong correlation between red meat consumption and bowel cancer :)

Wow - do you need to drink your own piss to be a vegetarian? I guess that will make sure you get plenty of B12 then ;)

I didn't say it wasn't. I'm saying the % saved of land is irrelevant as that % saved will end up being used up in the future by an ever expanding population; All it would do is buy us time.

Indeed it is cause and effect: A greater % of vegetarains actively monitor their diet than the % of the average meat eating population, so tend to be healthier. For example I don't think I ever recall seeing or hearing of an obese vegetarian. That's a lifestyle issue not a food type issue.

I know veggies that have had weight issues, Chips, Cheese, Cake, Crisps, Beer, Wine, Nuts, Chocolate are as far as I am aware not full of Meat so its quite easy to put weight on if you just cut meat out rather than substitute or just eat too much.

I guess its just me , swollowing pills to supplement your vit deficiency isnt quite natural .

My ex was a veggie although she loved a piece of meat between her lips:norty:

rafpmsl, the blokes a cretin. animal crulety nutjob.

I didn't say it was, just countering the suggestion that eating meat is the natural way to consume B12.

i didn't reaslise you could go pick B12 pills naturaly

Like I said, it was only my understanding and I wasn't stating as fact. I read a little about B12 deficiency as my other half is having a course of B12 injections at the moment. I read that it is common among vegetarians and meat was a source of B12.

Utilise more of the food sources available.

I grew up from a farming/country background myself.

Regulary we'd have fresh trout cause from a river.
Rabbit's that were shot
Pidgeons that were shot
Grouse/Pheasant and the likes

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_B12#Sources

"...
Ultimately, animals must obtain vitamin B12 directly or indirectly from bacteria, and these bacteria may inhabit a section of the gut which is posterior to the section where B12 is absorbed. Thus, herbivorous animals must either obtain B12 from bacteria in their rumens, or (if fermenting plant material in the hindgut) by reingestion of cecotrope fæces.
Vitamin B12 is found in foods that come from animals, including fish and shellfish, meat (especially liver), poultry, eggs, milk, and milk products.[23] One half chicken breast provides some 0.3 µg (micrograms) per serving or 6.0% of one's daily value (DV); 85 grams (3 oz) of beef, 2.4 µg, or 40% of one's DV; one slice of liver 47.9 µg or 780% of DV; and 85 grams (3 oz) of molluscs 84.1 µg, or 1,400% of DV.
Eggs are often mentioned as a good B12 source, but they also contain a factor that blocks absorption.[27] Certain insects such as termites contain B12 produced by their gut bacteria, in a way analogous to ruminant animals.[28] An NIH Fact Sheet lists a variety of food sources of vitamin B12.[23]
While lacto-ovo vegetarians usually get enough B12 through consuming dairy products, vegans will lack B12 unless they consume multivitamin supplements or B12-fortified foods. Examples of fortified foods include fortified breakfast cereals, fortified soy products, fortified energy bars, and fortified nutritional yeast. According to the UK Vegan Society, the present consensus is that any B12 present in plant foods is likely to be unavailable to humans because B12 analogues can compete with B12 and inhibit metabolism.[29][30]
Claimed sources of B12 that have been shown to be inadequate or unreliable through direct studies[31] of vegans include laver (a seaweed), barley grass, and human gut bacteria. ..."


Dave

Any veggie following a strict veggie diet (ie no suppliments) would probably die through malnutrition, ie deficiency in Vitamin B,D, iron, etc etc Surely that tells you all you need to know....

I don't too many veggies.

A girl married to a bloke that I work with - she always looks really really pale

A girl at a customer site I visit - she also looks ill, and to top it off, she is very thin.


Another girl I know is a veggie, but eats fish?
How can you claim to be vegetarian, yet eat fish.
That must mean she's a weirdo just, but at least she has a bit of colour in her skin.

I'm getting Vegetarian and Vegan mixed up - not sure what the difference is to be honest.

http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/everyvegan

Looks like as long as you have Soya milk on your organic Alpen your OK on the B12 front. Doesn't really sound as exciting as a full english but at least your presence on the planet may increase by a week or two :thumb:

My veggie colleague was talking about Halloween and how his children didn't go trick or treating because they were not allowed to eat jelly sweets - made from gelatin.


One thing though. If we stop eating meat and related products would pigs, cows and sheep become endangered animals - there aren't that many in the wild theses days.

Veggy and Vegan is like comparing porn with hardcore porn.

Similar, but much more extreme.

What complete and utter tosh!

:( :( ;)



Because she isn't a vegetarian?

Technically she is a pescatarian ;)

Lots of American vegetarians eat chicken ;)