Puts it in perspective!

I always enjoy the opening scene in that film about the aircraft that comes down in the mountains and there is a bit of canabalism involved(if that helps identify it!).Can't think of it for the life of me but pretty scary first scene!

Sorry,OT

Alive?

I like to compare them to the contruction of a caravan; thin aluminium bonded to a lattice style frame.


Now, does anyone know what happens to a caravan if you tow it at 200mph?

Well, they tend to rip themselves apart http://ccgi.rallytrader.plus.com/for...s/icon_eek.gif


(obligatory Top gear clip YouTube - Top Gear - Caravan World Speed Record :D )

No, there are some that are just held on pallets with webbing/nets.

It is interesting that when the 707 appeared in competition with the VC10, it was a cheaper machine and also more economical because it was appreciably lighter and therefore did more to the gallon. This is one reaason why it was bought in preference to the VC10. The airlines got a nasty shock when they discovered later thet the 707 had a thinner aluminium skin and so needed to be re-skinned from time to time which was a very expensive procedure of course. The VC10 had more rivets to a unit distance, as well as the thicker skin, than any other civilian aircraft which is why they are still flying safely in a freight and refuelling mode after a great number of years.

That failure in the 747 is really very worrying, especially if it was caused by fatigue. It must have been a very rapid decompression but the descent flown by the crew afterwards is a standard procedure which is practised in the simulator and is not difficult as long as the aircraft controls are undamaged and the airflow is fairly normal over the fuselage. The pilots have their individual oxygen masks which are instantly available should this sort of thing happen.

If this failure in the skin was not caused by some extraneous force, ie an explosion, there will be some very real worries over the 747's. The force on the aircraft skin due to cabin pressurisation at cruising altutude is surprisingly high so they cannot take chances in that respect. One only has to think back to the early Comet disasters to understand that. It will be interesting to find out what went wrong.

Les

Didn't Wellington Bombers just have fabric over the skin.Basically a metal skeleton with cloth not metal?

Now that must have been scary but I'm sure that was the least of the crews worries!

yep..wellington bombers used the Barnes Wallace "geodesic" construction method AFAIK.

Top informative post Les :thumb:

Yes thats true and as Midlife said it was built with what was called Geodesic construction. Basically it was all built up triangular segments covered with fabric. It was not pressurised at all of course. It was very resistant to damage from flak etc.

There is one in the Brooklands Air Museum which was recovered from underwater and was rebuilt in the original style by apprentices. The fabric is left off so you can see the construction.

Les :)

Good post Les. I never knew that about the 707.

Hear what you're saying about fatigue, but this isn't an old airframe. I'm guessing this is corrosion of some sort, or a maintenance failure of some sort, not fatigue.

Time will tell.

Just work at LHR chopper, not a pilot or anything like that, but I do work with pilots and ATC, so pick things up.

We had an a/c here, a few years back, that lost a nose cone. Hit buy a goose. You'd be amazed at the damage a big bird can do. Not a 30,000ft though! :)

I was chatting to someone from American Airlines last week about the ridiculous increase in the fuel surcharges applied to Cargo customers, most airlines are now charging roughly £0.98/Kg, we think petrol has increased for our cars, a year ago it was about £0.30/Kg !!

Anyway the point being she said that in the last 6 months the global fuel bill for American Airlines had increased by $860m usd, thats a small worry for anyone flying on a US carrier considering most of them are usually no more than a knats bollock away from Chapter 11 at any given time.


Flightman

Whats the deal with QF that stops you flying on them ?

A bit more info.

BBC NEWS | World | Asia-Pacific | Engineers examine plane for clues

Including an interview with someone on board who took some video on board once they reached 10000ft.

Apart from the bits that drop off that is :D

Yes I would tend to agree with you about corrosion. We had a Viscount from Austrian Airlines once for experimental work and when it was checked they found bad corrosion in the belly of the aircraft caused by spillages from the galley draining down.

It also looks as though the skin on the 747 parted at an area where there is a bit of a corner which tends to concentrate the forces acting on the fuselage too.

Les

tell me a bout it mate, £1.00 per kilo for fuel, plus £0.09 for war risk, then £10.00 to get the freight xrayed.if its to dense to xray it has to go in a decom cvhamber or air samples £60.00

Should be interesting to read the final report, if it is not covered up by Boeing.............

I tend to agree with Flightman and Les (well - I'd be daft not to really) but for the record my old met instructor was relegated to ground duties after getting a faceful of Albatross at 28,000 feet in a Canberra. At night.

Which rather buggered the "birds don't fly at night or at over 12,000 feet" theory. And his face. Quite how he recovered the aircraft safely with eyes facing in different directions and his nose spread all over the rear bulkhead is beyond me.

SB

PS He was still a **** though. Just a skilled and rather courageous one.

Bird on the face at 30,000 feet, every pilots dream, just needs to be the right sort of Bird....

Some more news here :

Oxygen masks failed: passengers | theage.com.au

The oxygen system problems are interesting.

Birds at night and above 12k feet, always an extra bit of spice in one's life!

Know a guy who was lucky enuff to start pulling up into a vertical climb (450 kts) when a humungus bird of prey went straight into to his left intake and out the top of it!
He would have had a very bad day if, 1: it was 0.5 meters to the right, and 2: if he was going straight and level!

As long as no one gets very hurt its always a good story.

Indeed. I know the odd oxygen mask failure is a not too uncommon occurrence, and is planned for. I think on the 744's there are 4 masks for every three passengers. However, this sounds like something more serious. It could be they had an oxygen cylinder go "pop". That would explain the hole, and the mask failures.

There are always more masks than pax in a civilian a/c.
In part to offset the above problems.

anyways big shout to the pilots, i know they are trained for this but it still takes skill to do wat they have done

The CEO of Qantas has categorically stated that it wasn't a corrosion issue, pretty early, but I suppose he would know if that's what he was told by the people investigating, it's also quite a big statement to make.

BBC NEWS | World | Asia-Pacific | Plane hole 'not due to corrosion'

It seems there are lots of bits of one of the oxygen bottles in the hold - that would certainly account for the damage.

Yes I heard that there was a suspicion of exploding oxygen bottles. Thats another story altogether, but still very serious.

Interested to see that about the bird strikes. Since most of my flying was at low level I have had a few of those, always a bit of a worry too. The only bad ones were once when I hit a German type of eagle in the Harzt mountain area. I was in a Canberra B(I)8 which had the fighter type cockpit canopy and it smashed the outer glass layer in front of my face but luckily did not come through the second layer of glass. It was supposed to be bullet proof too! That woke me up a bit. The other was a seagull which went into an engine in a Vulcan and destroyed the engine. They were prone to that because the compressor blades all broke off. It still flew perfectly well on the other three engines though:)

That chap was really unlucky to hit that bird so high, I have seen big birds flying very high too, but luckily never hit one.

Les

Wow! That must have been a massive thud (and fright)!!

Whooper swans have been recorded flying at 29,000 feet.

Oxygen cylinder story confirmed.

You bright people :)