PC PLOD.....If its such a "tossy" bbs then why are you here?

Oh yeah.....you're right...we all get paid WADS of cash to sit around and do f**k all...all day long....its great!!!!
Now where's my wallet.....Ah who cares, there was only two grand in it...plenty more where that came from.

Mr Dream Weaver,

In my local press a couple of moths back the local Police were running an article about prosecuting drivers for "Driving without due care" for driving while on a mobile, a comment was made that technically they could charge you with this for smoking while driving.

Lee

surely - if you contest any charges (going by the facts that have been presented) then the officers in question must surely be piffling in the wind.

innocent until proven guilty.

if the keys were put into the ignition then maybe the police would have a case but how can opening a passenger door account for the individual being in "charge" of a vehicle?

grrr. beyond belief!

can we complain as taxpayers that this case is a waste of OUR money?? proper crims get away with real crimes every day thru lack of evidence - it leaves me fuming if innocent people are treated in this way for whatever reason.

The problem with this is (refer to Stuart's post) PROVE... NO LIKELYHOOD...

For an adult human who is able to stand and speak, this is impossible, unless you had a taxi sitting beside you.

Incidentally, when my friend was done, the bench were out for 15 minutes considering the sentence, so it wasn't cut and dried that he would just get a fine and points.

The case up before my friend was a guy who was 3 times over the limit and ROLLED his car in Oxford Street, central London at 2am. It was his second offence. He got £500 and 3 year ban. I believe this ban is mandatory for second offenders.

The main problem is that no government is going to alter this law, for fear of a backlash from road safety groups.

Worrying.

Surely the ACPO can issue guidelines/instructions on this issue. If officers are instructed to hold back until intent is obvious (keys in ignition, sitting in driving seat etc) surely this would solve the problem.

I also think as long as Police Officers are judged on their arrest leading to conviction record, there will always be the odd over-zealous officer willing to nick an obviously innocent person.

The number scenarios where someone with no intention of driving could be convicted of D&D are endless.

Jerome.

This all brings back memories....!

Some ten years ago, some mates and myself had a good night on the beers and passed out.

During the night, some B******d nicked my friend, Colin's, car. Three miles up the road they stuffed it into a substation (missed electrocuting themselves by about a foot unfortunately)They got out and ran away.

Plod traced the plate and came stright to the house at three-ish in the morning, woke us up and demanded to know who owned the car. Colin says its his and gets asked for a breath test! He refuses (still drunk, angry, confused etc) and gets arrested for failing to supply a breath test!

In court two weeks later and despite a decent brief, gets a 12 month ban and £300 fine.

So Gentlemen, don't even JOKE about being nicked for playing Sega Rally 2000 with a beer in one hand. If a copper askes you for a breath test - even if you are asleep in bed - you better do it! The crime is "Failing to provide..... etc")

I understand that it became something of a test case and that it has been used to provide similar convictions since....

Russ

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Stuart H:
<B>Being in the possession of the keys while the vehicle is on a road or in another public place renders you liable to prosecution for the offence of DIC. Fishing around in it in a pub car park unfortunately would be included in this. [/quote]


Question 1 - Why?

Question 2 - Why don't police have a tiny bit of common sense and realise someone who is sleeping in the back of their car, or fishing around in the glovebox throught the passenger window for the house keys is not driving it home, else they would have done so??


On this basis, my car has the potential over doing well over a hundred miles an hour. Therefore everytime I get in it I have the potential to break the law. Do you want me to give you my address now? or do I just go and hand my license, car keys and life to the local pigsty? sorry, police station.

God I am such a dangerous criminal.

Am I better to leave my car keys in a bank vault over Xmas, just in case I am walking past my car in the driveway after a few drinks??

This is pathetic. Yes the government are wrong for allowing the law to exist, but the police are the ones who have the discretion to see the circumstances for what they are. To me that that is worse.

Is crime really so low in this country these power-crazy idiots with a badge have nothing better to do?? Go an catch a real f*cking criminal.

Neil and Gerg2,

Why have a go at Stuart, who is one of the few people on this BBS who could give accurate information on the persons rights in these circumstances.

Your replies are contemptuous and you should apologise.

ChrisW.

[This message has been edited by cwal1 (edited 21 December 2000).]

Edited to withdraw the statement as I now realise that the 2 posts were referring to a deleted post from a newbie calling himself PC PLOD.

ChrisW.

[This message has been edited by cwal1 (edited 21 December 2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Stuart H:
<B>Gary,

A few questions if I may:
a)Was your friend required to provide a specimen of breath for analysis?
b)What was he charged with?
c)What was the lower reading achieved on the alcometer back at the police station (if he was arrested)?

Cheers

S[/quote]

Not spoken to him since posting but AFAIK..

a - don't know about breathalizer, but did have a blood test at the police station
b - DIC
c - less idea on this than the officer inquestion obviously has on common sense and reality http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/rolleyes.gif

cwal1

I think you've got the wrong end of something here......Someone calling themselves PC PLOD posted something that was designed to antagonise us all but Stuart H removed it but the replies to that post are still around. I'm sure the guys are not talking about Stuart H

Edited because I'm still half asleep and failed to acknowledge the last part of cwal1's post...I'll get my coat!

[This message has been edited by RB170 (edited 21 December 2000).]

I'd like to know the rules that govern this one http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/confused.gif

Say I park my car say at a train station in the morning and get the train to work, if I then go for a few beers after work and get slightly mullered can I get done for being Drunk in charge? Technically I am still incharge of that vehicle...I have the keys, it's just that the car happens to be 20-30 miles away ??? What constitutes being in charge of a vehicle? is it:

a) Having the keys
b) Being within a certain distance of the vehicle
c) Having the keys and being within a certain distance.

OR

d) It doesn't matter and Billy makes it up as they go along?

It does seem made that somebody could be done for DIC whilst getting something out of their car after they've had a few. How come it is okay for a 12 year-old to be "in charge" of a vehicle (seems possession of the keys is the key issue here) if they get something out of the car for their dad?
How many 12 year olds wash their dad's (or mum's to be PC) car on the road every weekend, and they probably have the keys in their pockets - are they going to be prosecuted?
Knowing the way this country is headed wrt motoring, probably.... http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/rolleyes.gif

Surely a change in the law is required to change the charge to actual drunken driving, rather than merely being in charge of a vehicle? Any MP's on the site? http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/biggrin.gif

The worrying bit is if you catch the train to work, get mullered and catch the train home, go to your car to pick up your house keys from the car with the intention of getting a taxi, you could be nabbed. I know quite a few people who do this and personally I have worn holes in a few suit pockets carrying around the whole bunch.

Scary init!

This is worrying. If they choose to, a lot of people could get busted for this over the Christmas period.

http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/frown.gif

A work collegue got done for this some years ago.

I had (in my wilder days) just got "off" a *very* high speed conviction (£150 and 3 points, third speeding offence that year, long ban was expected).

Me and this guy worked in London and painted Covent Garden a very lurid shade of red that night.

On the way home, he stopped at the office to get his house keys and then opened the car door to remove his carphone so it would not get stolen (car parked outside the office in darkest Kings Cross). Along comes a local bobby (they walked the streets in those days) and he's nicked.

He got £1000 fine and 10 points on his previously clean license.

He did not get a ban.

As Stuart will confirm, just being there with the keys means you are guilty. This law is also different to any other in that the burden of PROVING you would not have driven lies with you, the defendant.

The prosecution do not need to prove you would have driven.

In the case of my friend, the court accepted that he would not have driven and that's why he didn't get a ban.

This law was intended to allow the arrest of people that the Police suspected of intending to Drink and Drive. How it is being applied, it makes no distinction between someone with criminal intentions and an innocent individual.

Moray's "alarm fob only" is the only way to get around this.

Only problem I can see with the alarm fob idea is that if you have been unlucky enough to encounter one of these jobs worth twats (sorry, officer of the law) (who probably only joined to police to get a power trip ** see below), then is he even going to give you the chance to show him that you only have the alarm fob and not the key?

I doubt it!

** I base this on personal exerience, and in no way is thie meant as an attack on the general quality of police offie I have encountered. I personally know 4 current or ex police officers. 1 was a taffic inspector, top bloke, approach was the meaning of the law, not the letter. Another was the husband of a friend, same approach as above, again top bloke.
The other 2 were twats. 1 from 6th form, wasnt popular, had an attitude problem, which was what made him unpopular, also wasnt the brightest star in the night sky. Joined Police to basically get a power trip as previously everyone else told him to **** off.
The other was an ex work "collegue" very similar to above example basically. Was nver going to achieve anything noteworth, until he joined the police.

robski

Okay then I think I understand the message here,

Your drunk in charge if you have the keys to the car and are in it. You'll get the same sentence whether your driving or not. So instead of sleeping in the car when pissed, simply start it up and drive home as quickly as you can.

This will lesson the chances of getting caught as you'll only be committing the crime for 20 minutes instead of 8 hours.

http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/confused.gif http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/eek.gif

Gary

Being in the possession of the keys while the vehicle is on a road or in another public place renders you liable to prosecution for the offence of DIC. Fishing around in it in a pub car park unfortunately would be included in this. Obviously if you can prove that you had no intention of driving the vehicle you will be fine.

There is a defence for this offence written into the Road Traffic Act:

<I>(2)It is a defence for a person charged with and offence under subsection (1)(b) to prove that at the time he is alleged to have committed the offence the circumstances were such that there was no likelihood of his driving the vehicle whiles the proportion of alcohol in the breath, blood or urine remained likely to exceed the prescribed limit.</I>

The penalty for this offence is 3 months imprisonment and/or a fine. Disqualification is discretionary.

Your friend needs to consult a lawyer <B>NOW</B> if he hasn't already done so and get letters from his boss about how important driving is for his career etc.

Edited 'cause I was still half asleep when I typed the original.

[This message has been edited by Stuart H (edited 21 December 2000).]

So Stu this is saying that I can get nicked for being drunk in charge even if the car is 20-30 miles away.... http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/eek.gif

That’s not good!... http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/eek.gif If I'm slaughtered in the middle of London and a copper pulls me up and finds a set of car keys on me then he can do me for it even if I argue that my car is 30 miles away, he knows that it's only going to take an hour and a half or so (presuming public transport is working) to get back to my car. I'll still be pissed and could decide to attempt to drive home!

I suppose I could argue that the likely hood of public transport working in order for me to get back to my car and drive is low. http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/biggrin.gif

Pete,

You say your mate got £1000 fine and 10 points on his previously clean license, even though the court accepted that he would not have driven and that's why he didn't get a ban.

It gets worse - we are all for drunk drivers getting the book thrown at them, but to include innocent law abiding drivers in the same categpory is blood boiling.

Gary

Good luck to your mate Gary - I pity for his insurance payments in the future.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by RB170:
<B>So Stu this is saying that I can get nicked for being drunk in charge even if the car is 20-30 miles away[/quote]

Not exactly, I've edited my original post hopefully to make it a bit clearer. Was still half asleep when I was typing it http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/frown.gif

Cheers

S

So technically speaking if you got a mini cab home from the pub and the driver for whatever reason had to stop and leave the car then you could get done for DD........im walking home!!!

Stuart,

what would be a valid defence then?

the only 1 I can think of is to call a cab, and wait to go to your car until he is there and waiting, so if you get quizzed, you can say "look there is my cab!"

robski

Ridiculous!

Obviously there is little point in waiting for someone to drive off and crash before nabbing them, but equally at least getting in the driver's seat should be a cutoff point - standing next to an open passenger door hardly qualifies as "intent".

Surely the interpretation of laws should include the intention or objectives of that law, rather than the explicit letter of the law.

What next? I drive home, park up, have a beer, and am convicted of DD on the basis I'm drunk and the engine's still warm?

I thought in this country we are meant to be innocent until proven guilty.

So if you haven't even got into the car, let alone started the engine, I would say you should be innocent.

Does this mean then you can be charged for driving a fast car, because you may break the speed limit. Or get a parking fine because you have walked over to the meter without having a ticket on your car.

Good point though. You might as well drive home drunk instead of sleeping in your car.

OK, so when I go out clubbing, some of us go and sleep in the car, until everyone comes out of the club. Someone is always sobber (to drive), does this mean we can be arrested if the sobber person is still in the club???

The current law sucks big time. Nobody knows where they stand.

I know though, that if it happened to me, I would counter prosecute the police for wrongful arrest.

When I was at the network Q rally last year about 2 thousand folk would have been done for sleeping in their car after the consumption of alchohol as the may have driven at any point........... http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/frown.gif

Innocent until proven guilty applies to all offences except motoring ones it would seem.

Can you imagine if someone was convicted of burglary because they were looking through the window of someones house from the pavement (being nosey isn't a crime - yet!)? No. There would be a public outcry miscarriage of justice etc.

Reminds me of a story that was in the press a while back of a incident outside a pub. Some poor guy gets his throat slit and is bleeding profusely. Another guy is pleading for someone to take him to the nearby hospital because an ambulance would take too long. No-one volunteers because they are all over the limit. The guy is near death, so this bloke saves his life driving him to the local hospital. When the police arrive at the hospital, what do they do? Investigate the stabbing? Take statements from witnesses? No. They breathalize the guy who drives the injured guy to the hospital saving his life. Result, gets done for D&D. That isn't just unfair, it's immoral. The courts/CPS/Police et al are basically saying let the guy bleed to death rather than drive slightly over the limit in an emergency.

Jerome.

There was a case some years ago over Swindon way, where a young lad about 12 or 13 had to walk along a narrow country lane on his way to school. For several days running, he sees this old motorbike abandoned on the grass verge, so he figures that it has probably been stolen, and decides to wheel it down to his local country police station.

In return for his good deed, the police then do him for having no insurance or licence ( - I can't remember the exact details now as it was a very long time ago).

IIRC, when the case came up before the magistrates, they had the sense to chuck the case out, and b0lloxed the sergeant for bringing the charges in the first place.

But imagine how the kid must have viewed the police after that!

Firstly, I do sympathise with Stuart. He's got to try and do a good job with some cr@p laws and a minority of colleagues that give the rest of the police force a bad name. I'm sure he's a first rate copper.

However, I'm due to go out tonight, company bash. I haven't driven to the station specifically because I'm likely to get slaughtered http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/smile.gif Therefore I'm getting a cab home.

BUT...since ALL my keys are on 1 bunch, it looks like when I get out of the cab and walk past my car to enter my house, I'm vulnerable to arrest! I dont care if I can prove later that I had no intention of driving the car, the fact is by then, I've spent the night in the cells, been given a good beating for resisting arrest (sorry, I meant subjected to reasonable force http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/wink.gif) and due to appear in court, on a DD charge, therefore losing face with my family, my work colleagues and my insurance company

Sucks really, doesn't it.

Ooops, forgot to spell check.

[This message has been edited by DavidLewis (edited 21 December 2000).]

This story sickens me.

GaryC - please pass on my best wishes to your friend.

Paul