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Originally Posted by lozgti
I despair.
Comes back to common sense, most cops i have met and know have it in spades however it appears some do not.:) The current appearance is that the law protects the scum of the uk and them only and they get off with laughable so called punishments The appearance is that other car crime like thieft does not matter The apperance is that kids can and do what they want when they want and to whom they want The apperance is that speeding is worse than murder or rape or pretty much any other crime Also have a look at. I know this is not likely to be most cops or forces but this is real and right now. http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/showthrea...ght=dispatches Maybe that was all just media spin and lies;););) |
Originally Posted by lozgti
I despair.
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A Police State staffed by numbskulls I expect.
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Originally Posted by Felix.
Olly - if it perception you want
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Originally Posted by Felix.
Putting police on the beat doesn't work - and there is not enough of us to do it anyway.
Basically we want the police to do what they are supposed to do - catch criminals whilst serving the general public (the electorate!!! in case you haven't got the point). Rant over ... Dave |
I wonder how long it is before 999 ends up offshore? ;)
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Not long now - they're supposed to convert to 112 :)
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LOL ! 999 a call centre in Bangalore :D
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Originally Posted by OllyK
Felix
What you perhaps don't understand is that to the general public, perception is everything. So are we here just to look good for the public - or are you wanting us to investigate crime and incidents then |
Ladies like a man in uniform :)
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Originally Posted by hutton_d
*They* (meaning the police and politicians) keep on telling *us* (meaning the general prole population of this country) this BUT WE (the electorate) want more coppers on the beat. WE (the electorate) want coppers we can get to easily, that will respond to calls for police assistance. WE (the electorate) want coppers that arrive in the flsh to sort out problems. We (the electorate) do NOT want calls for police assistance to be responded with a crime number full stop.
Basically we want the police to do what they are supposed to do - catch criminals whilst serving the general public (the electorate!!! in case you haven't got the point). Rant over ... Dave The truth is that there are precious few of us compared to the public. We serve a large area that is more or less the size of a small city. there are about 20 emergency response officers on our shift - and often we turn out less than 10. The job que runs at about 140. If you want a massive influx of new police, then vote for another govenment. As it is we serve the public as best we can. It pointless walking the beat - because it doesn't solve anything. If a crime is unsolvable, then it is pointless sending officers to the door when advice can be given over the phone. If we attended every job that gets phoned in then the job que will head into the thousands. Most problems that get phoned into us should not be a police matter and basically waste our time and we get loads of false crime reporting. Crimes have to be investigated in a certain way to provide best evidence at court. I can say that our shift works it socks off for the public and we do catch criminals and get successful outcomes at court. I think i can say that its best to leave response policing to the police rather than just go on public perceptions.. |
Originally Posted by Felix.
Olly.
So are we here just to look good for the public - or are you wanting us to investigate crime and incidents then To give you a similar situation in a commercial situation. We provide a web based application which at one installation provides a services to several thousand users. We don't provide a managed service in this case, i.e. the customer sourced their equipment and Internet backbone from one organisation and the application from us. When a server crashes or the backbone goes down and the application is not available, what do you think the customer's response is? They ring our help desk and tell us that our application isn't working. It's nothing to do with us and is out of our control, but because we are the bit that customer sees on a daily basis the perception is that if they can't access the application then it's our problem. Now we could, just tell the customer to go away and talk to the service provider, not our problem, but because we are aware of the perception that the users have of how it all hangs together to do so would not be good for our business, so we get involved and work with the service providers to get normal service resumed as quickly as possible. So while you may be addressing crime, you also need to be SEEN to be addressing crime, in particular the crime which has the biggest impact on daily life, such as scrotes causing havoc. Again - "I" appreciate the need for a comprehensive package of policy from government, police, cps and the courts for it all hang together, but because you are the most visible to the general public, the perception is that you're crap at what you do. Defend what you do and point the finger at others as much as you like, but until the police are seen, as an organisation, to be addressing the issues, or trying to direct government in an effective way, you will continue to be perceived as under achieving. |
Olly,
I say again, what did you want us to do then. Lock the kids up because it will look good for the public (eventhough they may be innocent). Don't do anything to the OAP (even though she is as guilty as sin) because it will look good again.......or deal with it properly |
OK guys
Here's a scenario. I will put you in charge of our shift tonight. Its a mid week night shift and we have 15 on the shift to cover a small city sized area. There are about 100 jobs on the que and you can expect to have another 200 jobs called in through the night which will filter down to response to deal with - about 35 of which will be emergency response incidents. Day shift have locked about 20 people up and have dealt with most of them, but 3 remain in the cells to be dealt with and there is a missing from home to deal with. Each shift member will carry about 10 jobs which are ongoing investigations. So the floor is yours - what would you like us to do..................... |
Round them all up...
Put them in a field... (see who else is old enough to remember the last line :)) |
Originally Posted by Felix.
Olly,
I say again, what did you want us to do then. Lock the kids up because it will look good for the public (eventhough they may be innocent). Don't do anything to the OAP (even though she is as guilty as sin) because it will look good again.......or deal with it properly I have explained (twice) why in general terms THE GENERAL PUBLIC have a poor view of the Police. I've explained that you need to address the perception. You seem to be missing that there is a sub-discussion going on about the wider Police activities within this thread. I've also explained that I personally understand the bigger issues and that the the Law / Criminal Justice system is bigger than just the police force. In general terms you need to be seen to be dealing with the petty crimes that effect people's lives on a day to day basis and it needs to be done in such a way that the perpetrators are seen to receive a punishment that deters them from re-offending. That's what you need to do, if you want me to explain how you do that, I'll be happy to do so when I'm collecting Ian Blair's salary, until that time, you will be judged by the poor strategy implementation of your top brass, if you don't like it that the public think you provide a poor service - do something about it and take it to your top brass. |
Originally Posted by Felix.
OK guys
Here's a scenario. I will put you in charge of our shift tonight. Its a mid week night shift and we have 15 on the shift to cover a small city sized area. There are about 100 jobs on the que and you can expect to have another 200 jobs called in through the night which will filter down to response to deal with - about 35 of which will be emergency response incidents. Day shift have locked about 20 people up and have dealt with most of them, but 3 remain in the cells to be dealt with and there is a missing from home to deal with. Each shift member will carry about 10 jobs which are ongoing investigations. So the floor is yours - what would you like us to do..................... |
Originally Posted by Brendan Hughes
Round them all up...
Put them in a field... (see who else is old enough to remember the last line :)) |
:nono: That's not the last line.
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Originally Posted by Felix.
I agee - in an ideal world where police officers grow on trees.
Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime. My arse! :D |
Originally Posted by Felix.
OK guys
Here's a scenario. I will put you in charge of our shift tonight. Its a mid week night shift and we have 15 on the shift to cover a small city sized area. There are about 100 jobs on the que and you can expect to have another 200 jobs called in through the night which will filter down to response to deal with - about 35 of which will be emergency response incidents. Day shift have locked about 20 people up and have dealt with most of them, but 3 remain in the cells to be dealt with and there is a missing from home to deal with. Each shift member will carry about 10 jobs which are ongoing investigations. So the floor is yours - what would you like us to do..................... the three in the cells, will be within the timescales allowed for detention, and can be fed and watered by the guys on station duty. the remaining officers should be posted out to your local identified crime area, troublesome estate on masse, and a bit of on the ground policing-zero tolerance enforced. Get the area cars patroling round here, not up and down the motorway unless a major incident requires it. As calls come in during the evening, if officers are needed, they go from the evenings hot spot. on completion of the call, they return to the hotspot. one thing your guys need to practice is best use of resource. It dosent take three coppers to tell motorists that a road is closed, when adequate barriers are in a shed by the road for this. And the three who stood there at post rush hour failed to see the 7 mile queue building up in the other direction, because they never looked behind them, and if they did, they failed to do somthing about it!! Mart |
Originally Posted by mart360
Pull in anyone who is out speed camming or undergoing diversity training.!
Originally Posted by mart360
the three in the cells, will be within the timescales allowed for detention, and can be fed and watered by the guys on station duty..!
Originally Posted by mart360
the remaining officers should be posted out to your local identified crime area, troublesome estate on masse, and a bit of on the ground policing-zero tolerance enforced.
Originally Posted by mart360
Get the area cars patroling round here, not up and down the motorway unless a major incident requires it.
Originally Posted by mart360
As calls come in during the evening, if officers are needed, they go from the evenings hot spot. on completion of the call, they return to the hotspot..
Originally Posted by mart360
one thing your guys need to practice is best use of resource.
And there is still the existing job que, the calls that come in through the night, jobs which take a number of officers to sort out (fights, domestics etc). Jobs that can not be rushed (sudden deaths, rape allegations, missing from homes). Emergency calls, the fact that you are fast running out of officers as they all have prisoners. And then of course all the ongoing enquiries which officers have. Sorry Mart - i'm just trying to point out that it is not as easy as it looks. |
Originally Posted by OllyK
In general terms you need to be seen to be dealing with the petty crimes that effect people's lives on a day to day basis and it needs to be done in such a way that the perpetrators are seen to receive a punishment that deters them from re-offending.
As i'm not involved in the case - i can't really comment (nor can other people), other than what ever the outcome is, it should be dealt with properly |
Felix
Hi there. WE are being told ther are xxx number of new officers, i cannot remember how many but Charles Clarke has increased the numbers. Are you saying there are not enough if this is your scenario? This would not be the fault of the public as we now think your numbers are increased and you have more powers. Is this not the case? I am not trying to create an us and them situation between the Police and the general public but my understanding is that the manpower is there. Watching Undercover Copper last week the woman was saying the job is all about numbers and how they where meeting gov't targets by fiddling. arresting three people shoplifitng and putting it though as three crimes instead of one (cannot remember the exact wording but close to thast) Are detection numbers not realistic and just fooling the government? Just curious |
Paul
yes the numbers are increasing, however the majority are still going through training and will take another year before we see them. I guess we should have another 5-6 new officers in the next year or so. But we will probably loose this many to new posts, retirements, injuries, promotions etc etc At the moment the goverment are statistics mad with everything which does filter down to our management team. However you can't detect what isn't there so we don't worry about them. The scenario on the TV didn't make sense as it is only one crime detected to 3 people (1 victim - 1 crime). Policy will massage the figures from time to time (such as charging a drunk and dissorderly with section 5 public order - so that we can have a detected crime) - but this will have the knock on effect of having a higher violent crime level. |
Originally Posted by Paul Habgood
Watching Undercover Copper last week the woman was saying the job is all about numbers and how they where meeting gov't targets by fiddling. arresting three people shoplifitng and putting it though as three crimes instead of one (cannot remember the exact wording but close to thast)
,,, the program also showed cops on the night shift doing bog all except playing cards. And taking an hours *urgent clerical* timer to get a chinese. Care to comment on why those guys weren't out on the *troublesome* estates??? Dave |
Originally Posted by hutton_d
,,, the program also showed cops on the night shift doing bog all except playing cards. And taking an hours *urgent clerical* timer to get a chinese. Care to comment on why those guys weren't out on the *troublesome* estates???
Dave We have a good shift and everyone works hard for each other. No one can hide away and not take jobs on. We don't get free bees and often don't get a meal break full stop. That kind of stuff won't happen on a busy station. |
Originally Posted by Felix.
They don't do police camming on night shifts - besides these are civilian posts. Most training is also done on days off..!
No. They must be dealt with as soon as possible (they can only be held for a maximum of 24 hrs). Therefore you will need three officers to deal. This will take upto 3-4 hours in interviews, CPS advice and case file prep. What. All of us in one estate...! What about the other 16 estates? and the town centre, industrial estates etc. Zero tolerence. Excellent. So we lock people up left right and centre. This will cause more police to be trapped dealing with prisoners in custody. Then of course you will need other officers to sieze clothing, searches etc. Then you will need statements, witness statements, you may have a crime scene which need guarding If you mean the traffic cars, they do drift through the estates - but they cover the whole county and hence need to deal with any RTA's in the county and respond to any ARV calls. Criminals will begin to suss that there are no police in a set area. So they will hit it. It will take us a good 10-15 minutes to get there from the one estate on blue and twos by which time they have gone. Do comms allow you to get back to the hotspot before they call you again - bearing in mind the job que is over 100. One job can take the whole night shift to sort out and often the number of emergency calls exceeds the number of officers. See above. And there is still the existing job que, the calls that come in through the night, jobs which take a number of officers to sort out (fights, domestics etc). Jobs that can not be rushed (sudden deaths, rape allegations, missing from homes). Emergency calls, the fact that you are fast running out of officers as they all have prisoners. And then of course all the ongoing enquiries which officers have. Sorry Mart - i'm just trying to point out that it is not as easy as it looks. so you can only detain for 24 hhrs, according to your post there were 3 to be done, and the shift before did most of them, this still leaves adequate time to deal with them, its use of resourses, take the civvys of camming and utilise them better. re hitting the hot spots, if you do this on a random basis, the crims dont know where you are until its too late, look at NY its crime level dropped due to zero tolerance, and an increase in bodys on the ground, get rid of the speed cams, and use the money spent on more people at ground level. and i like the way you totally avoided the last bit about 3 people to close a road, when there was and is adequate facilities allready there to do that. and i never said it wasnt easy, i still stand by my comment, you need to better utlise your resource. Mart |
Originally Posted by Brendan Hughes
:nono: That's not the last line.
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Originally Posted by mart360
so you can only detain for 24 hhrs, according to your post there were 3 to be done, and the shift before did most of them, this still leaves adequate time to deal with them, its use of resourses, take the civvys of camming and utilise them better.
Originally Posted by mart360
re hitting the hot spots, if you do this on a random basis, the crims dont know where you are until its too late,
Originally Posted by mart360
look at NY its crime level dropped due to zero tolerance, and an increase in bodys on the ground, get rid of the speed cams, and use the money spent on more people at ground level.
Originally Posted by mart360
and i like the way you totally avoided the last bit about 3 people to close a road, when there was and is adequate facilities allready there to do that..
[/QUOTE] I wasn't having a go Mart - just trying to show that it is not easy to do. Things happen through the course of a shift that can completely wipe a shift of its resources and this often happens. So the job que rockets and emergency calls can sometimes go unanswered. We need far more staff to cope with demand and until this happens, it becomes a very fine juggling act. |
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