I think we are coming up against the "horses for courses" effect here.

Personally, I felt the P1 was superior, as it is equally as competant as a daily driver or as a sportscar. You get a car that is rewarding, competant and flattering without requiring you to have spent every weekend on a track. It is a supple and fun car, but retains some sophistication and comfort. I prefer a car that isn't "always on" because my drive to work involves traffic, police cars and long straight boring pieces of road with less than Japanese quality Tarmac.

When I was teeny bit younger, I loved the RA. If it was my second car (for weekends only etc etc) then I would have kept it. It is an awesome machine and impossible to drive without feeling you are racing. However, after a long day, I would get in it and hate it: always chaging gear, my spine being rattled and jarred, and having to concentrate completely in the wet.
The STi RAs are insane pieces of kit, but for some they are too much. I believe that is what my friend paid for when he bought his P1: refinement.

If you are a hardened race-head then the RA is the machine you need: but I do not belive it could ever be described as a relaxing drive. Fun, yes. Relaxing, no.

I have only driven the P1 a few times, but it is very very nice: it flatters the driver by giving you more margin for error, it does not require you to focus 100% if you are not driving above 5/10. I guess it is more of a car for us wimps. But it really is very very competant.

Modifying an RA? Why didn't I think of that?





PS. In the end I chopped my RA in for a Legacy Turbo. Yes yes, I know. But the miles were too much, the insurance was too high, and I needed the money. And you know what? Although it is a litle boring, it does everything you ask of it. It sure ain't an impreza, but it is still a hell of a lot of fun when you put your foot down and corner hard. And it still surprises the hell out of a lot of cars (and a few bikes!) that would have tried it on in the RA. (note defensive tone)lol

This is alittle cheeky but,

"if an STI is made at the factory, then the P1 must drop into the dealer edition area, like a....escort encor. te-he.:D LOL

omfg lol :D

Sparkly paint-job, nice trim, alloys and a few vinyl stickers on last years model?

At this years price?

Hell yeah, where do I sign!!!?

I suppose since it wasnt made by subaru that must be true.

Prodrive were instrumental in the making of my car, I have tried to scrub their name off my shocks but I cant get rid of it.

In the end I caved and bought a boot carpet to match, its currently lining my wardrobe!


and what is so funny about me driving an sti4 type r (kinda)?

Adam M is jealous 'cos he doesn't drive the ultimate Impreza. 'nuff said.
I'll freely admit that the 22B isn't at it's best of bumpy B roads - I've hit the stops on long sweeping bends and I've hit bumps mid corner that have picked the car up and thrown it half a foot off line. But thats what makes it fun - you come up against it's limits at more 'esnsible' speeds than you would in a P1. The last thing I want from my rallycar replica is refinement.....
C

errr...I rest my case? :D

Adam- Autostyle have a 2 door boot patten, thanks to me, and the compnies been taken over by someone different, they said you made the last owner move to Afganistan, lmfao

where are all the p1 owners, coo-eee come out where ever you are.

:D

Oh I was just thinking of you chuck,

How's your intergalatic gearing, or is your car still way, so you have a audi shapped bumm today?

:D

suspension was too stiff on my old evo and you could notice it big style in the wet, but when the country lanes were dry it was absolutely stunning, bumps n all. Absolutely mental speeds, regardless of the quality of the road. She felt as surefooted as something with superglue on its feet.

Can't you beat him even when its dry?

cant take the piss much out of gearing anymore. Mine is longer than chucks now!

James, drove the Audi at the weekend, it's a suprisingly good (competant) car... for supermarket trips.
But then I went to a (w)banker friends wedding in the 22. I was told to park it around back with the hired helps cars :( Damn jap crap :(
LOL
C

some people have no taste! the last wedding i went to, the wedding car was the 22B TypeUK! ;):D

Cems sisters wedding cars were wrx, evo 6 makinnen and a 22B type better than UK.

Funny that on july 5th, I was using mine as a wedding car at the request of a sidc member :D

Adam - you southern softy, you only need first gear down your way,

John, in your earlier post you miss the point, I wasn't saying that an R/RA is difficult in the wet, in fact I find them an absolute hoot. What I was trying to do was answer the original question, and the fact is that the P1's "softer" characteristics make it quicker on the public road, where I like to go bloody fast but retain a margin for error. Before all the STi owners jump on me again, yes this can be done in an STi but you either end up going slower or you eat into that margin. HarpsWRX and I know this because we spend all our time driving our P1 and RA back to back.

As Turbo_Steve said though, it is horses for courses. I run the P1 as my day-to-day car because I have to go to work in it and more often than not I have to travel down some of the UK's finest pothole-ridden cart tracks. I came within a gnat's whisker of buying a 22B but didn't for this very reason. If I only had to tavel 2 miles to work every day I would have bought the 22 (and it would still have been slower than a P1).

The P1 is a beautifully balanced package and due to this it is capable of going quicker under a majority of circumstances. I am not saying that is always most rewarding or most fun, but to whoever said they thought a P1 was dull, I say to you, you weren't driving it quick enough!!

The main point is that the R/RA are so much cheaper than the P1 that you could have an suspension you liked and still have thousands left in the bank. The adjustable diff means you make make it mimic a P1 in power to wheels as well. This "they are not suitable for UK roads" maybe true in standard trim but it doesnt stop you buying a set of shock and springs for a few hundred quid and making it Uk road friendly if you want ;). My RA back in 2000 was over 9K cheaper than a P1 and buys a whole load of suspension and mods and insurance and fuel and and and........ ;)

havign said that I still run my STI pink suspension and 18's. Some roads near me are best avoided but most of the time its fine and quick ;).

[Edited by chrisp - 7/23/2002 9:05:21 PM]

If you want to take it to extremes you could compare my old Impreza Sport with a P1 on a wet twisty B road. My sport would wipe the floor with a P1 in those conditions, it had much better traction as it had no rear antiroll bar, no rear LSD, it was lighter and had bugger all power so you could just keep it floored.

The number of times people didnt believe this until they saw it for themselves, well, i lost count of it.:D The only time a turbo would pull away was on anything requiring power. In the corners the sport was faster!

You take any car and soften its damping and it will perform better in those circumstances, its called maximising mechanical grip. On 95% of the roads we actually drive on, the P1 is dumbed down and isnt as quick as an STi5 TypeRA. It will be as quick as an STi5, which is basically what it is as the typeR kit was taken off the car.

The main reason i didnt go for a P1 is cost, i couldnt justify to myself the risk of losing so much money over the next 3 years of ownership, where as with the STi5 TypeRA V-Ltd it was much cheaper to buy and the amount of depreciation i will see will be minimal by comparison. My car was one owner, 24K miles, pretty mint condition and i bought it for £10K less than most P1's sell for! Thats an aweful lot of dosh to save for a higher spec car!

John,

Did you really compare your sport with a P1 in a back to back comparison, with equally competent drivers aboard? What mods did you make to your Sport? If so are you stating that such a modified subaru is the safest way to get from a to b?

Thanks JL

If you want a car that has lots of traction in the wet, then its got to be softer damped and sprung than would be ideal in the dry. It's simple mechanics.

My Sport was totally standard, 115BHP. The only mod was using 16" wheels from the Turbo model with SO2PP tyres.

And yes, i have put the sport up against many derivitives of Impreza, including 360BHP versions. It holds its own very well, sure some is down to driver ability, but some is down to a well balanced, lightweight chassis.

Ultimate grip of a P1 or STi is much higher, but not in all conditions, certainly not in the wet on a bumpy B road.

Chasis dynamics is complicated, you cant have your cake and eat it. Look at a WRC car for example, they are two totally diferent animals when you compare the Tarmac spec to the gravel spec, you run gravel spec on smooth tarmac and it will be slow as hell, you run tarmac spec on gravel and it wont get any traction at all, forgetting the fact it will grind to a halt on the first rough section of stage.

Anyone who tells you that you can have a car that is the ultimate in all road conditions is a lier, or doesnt understand car dynamics.

ebony and ivory live together in perfect harmony

P.S i drive a P1 and i am happy
i am also happy for anyone else that enjoys their car
and i am not up my own arse cos i even knock about with a guy who drives a supra

Enter 1 sport owner grinning from ear to ear :-)

(Still can't wait for turbo ownership though!)

If i ever get the nerve to take her on track. I think i'll be getting John in the passenger seat telling me what to turn & push!

Unfortunately first time i saw u, u were in your new toy so missed out on the much spoken about Sport action!

Interesting debate guys (Give me Raw anyday!)

All the best,
Paul
MY99 DBM Sport

As for the P1 costing more, I am surprised that no one has mentioned the fact it is a special, limited edition. Why does the RB5 still take a 4-5k premium over a MY99?

Both these cars are awesome creatures. They are not really targetted at the same people.

If you want a cheap performance beast, buy a Type R and grin knowing you have a bargain car that outperforms 95% of cars on the road (if driven well).

If you want a Rare Limited Edition car with a little prestige and dont mind paying for it, get a P1 and grin knowing you too can outperform 95% of cars on the road.

John,

You make some very important points, especially in the wet B-road commentary. Its strange that a mag like evo goes to such pains to take cars to wales on precisely the kinds of B-roads of which you speak, and always slags off so many wide-tyred cars without ever simply trying a car such as a basic Impreza with soft suspension- which as you say will out evo the best. evo try to make it sound as if such supreme chassis work allows the P1 to do wales in the wet, when indeed a humble sport would do better.

John, did the Impreza sports' ability have anything to do with a different 4WD system than used in the turbo?

Last, have you ever experienced such wet B-road ability in any other cars, such as Audi Quattro's (I understand that Audi's idea was to place the engine far forward for ultimate stability?) or others?

Eagle7 both mine and John RAs are limited editions RAs 1 of 1000 but you are less like to see one than a P1 as they were JDM so only a small % of them made it over here ;). I know the import of mine only brought 9 over. Doesnt stop other importers but I have only seen a couple like mine on meets and trackdays.

P1 was sort of limited, well mine was anyway, a car that was tweeked so well, all the paint came off the rear spoiler, 4 times, the big breaks that knakered the wheels with hot brake dust, cuz they were to soft and kept bending when you drove it hard down one of the english roads that is was designed for.

You just got to know how to drive a STI, as the style is total different, you can not just hop in and thrash it like the uk car.
Thats why we've all got nice big balls:D

Dead simple.......buy one now!!!


Do get the bigger brake kit though.

John,

You make some very important points, especially in the wet B-road commentary. Its strange that a mag like evo goes to such pains to take cars to wales on precisely the kinds of B-roads of which you speak, and always slags off so many wide-tyred cars without ever simply trying a car such as a basic Impreza with soft suspension- which as you say will out evo the best. evo try to make it sound as if such supreme chassis work allows the P1 to do wales in the wet, when indeed a humble sport would do better.

John, did the Impreza sports' ability have anything to do with a different 4WD system than used in the turbo?

Last, have you ever experienced such wet B-road ability in any other cars, such as Audi Quattro's (I understand that Audi's idea was to place the engine far forward for ultimate stability?) or others?

The sport has an open rear diff, is lighter, especially up front, it has no rear anti-roll bar either. The suspension is softer, it is an inch higher and has more bump travel. Basically it is a softer setup all round that gives great mechanical grip when road conditions are low grip.

I have owned/driven lots of AWD cars in the past including cossie 4x4, 2.9 V6 XR4x4 (another very underated car, it has a superb balance), Sunny GTiR plus lots of Impreza's including the 2.5RS.

The quatro is a car i havent driven, but its actually a pretty poor design, the engine hangs out front so far because its the only way to fit a straight 5 with a longitudinal gearbox and FWD/AWD. The Impreza by comparison has a Boxer 4 so is only 2 cylinders long so has its engine weight far more to the rear of the car.

John,

I realize that many might construe the Quattro's design as imbalanced, and I too had my doubts. But after speaking with numerous owners, reading all manner of articles on them (dating all the way back to Motor in the 80's) and owning one myself, I must say that it is a design which most certainly works. All parties mentioned above speak (especially with the torsen cars- urq in particular)of utter stability in conditions that cause others including Impreza's to lose grip, and a self-centering ability, once imbalanced, whose power of recovery is quite amazing. This has been coroberated to me by people such as the owner of dynalinx, who regularly races against all manner of evo like cars, another scoobynet member (Mark Mcewan) who told me that his UrQ while not up to par in some reguards, was more stable and sure-footed in difficult conditions than his Impreza, Performance Car's 4WD greats article which they lauded the Quattro (in comparison with Impreza and the like)as most "reasurring" of the group.
I think a bit of a rethink about the different types of drivetrain configurations is in order. Maybe an Impreza style boxer engine set up has certain advantages, a Audi style front heavy design (coupled with the right 4WD system) another, and maybe the coming fornt-mid engine style yet another? It sure would be nice if some publication could do tests to solidify what the differences are.

basic car dynamics prove beyond any doubt that the way to make a car work is to have a low polar moment of inertia and a low centre of gravity.

Put into laymans terms, get all the weight inside the wheelbase of the car and as low as you can, anything outside the wheelbase is bad for agility.

The quatro is a very reasuring drive, because it has a natural tendency to understeer, that makes it easy for joe public to cope with. Its far from fast though. If you look back to the Group4/A/B era the quatro was a major success because it was a couple of years ahead of the competition, it was the first rally car to use AWD so had huge grip advantages, however, it still came in second to Ari Vatanen in his Mk2 escort BDA in the world championship in its first year, it wasnt that great a car really.

It was then developed way beyond what you could actually buy into a very powerful car, but to make it handle it required huge weight transfer exercises with the radiators and oil tanks etc in the boot, it also needed masive aero aids that were only sucessful because the quatro 5 cylinder engine could produce huge power. It wasnt long before it was beaten hands down by the peugeot 205T16 and Lancia S4 which had low polar moment of inertia designs being mid engined.

The quatro is a great car, but its not a match for an Impreza where handling is concerned. The escort cosworth is a better design too, as is the Lancer Evo.