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wrx9181 22 December 2011 08:28 PM

It's not handbags
If you can't post facts on your own thread about scoobys when your a Scooby specialist .......... Come on some common sense and respect please

EngineMapper @ Group B Motorsport 22 December 2011 08:34 PM

My experience, which is much smaller than Kev's or Martyn's on the DD at my place has been that you cannot definitively say what the difference in spool would be without logging that individual car, which in your experience Shaun may be 300rpm in that gear, but certainly won't be the same as the next car that is run.

After-all spool is dictated by simple fluid dynamics in terms of exhaust flow and pressure vs turbine and compressor flow and inertia characteristics, but in practice it is very complex in it's effects.

Looking at it simply, a simple difference in manifold and up-pipe pressure at a given cfm and temperature will give a very different spool-to-rpm point, i.e. second gear full throttle at 4000rpm might generate 360cfm flow at a temperature of 550c, whereas 4000rpm in fifth gear might generate 360cfm at 750c lets say. The fifth gear pull will obviously generate a faster velocity turbine gas flow which will spool the turbo faster. However the time in gear and the generation of exhaust gas flow and temperature will change and so the spool will change, it's inevitable. Albeir second gear is unlikely to generate the same exhaust gas cfm as the turbo spools slower and heat generation is obviously lower because the engine has to do less work etc etc.

I'd say based on just this that anywhere from no change in rpm spool vs the dyno, (if ramp rate equals realistic in gear acceleration time), to a large difference in spool is quite realistic, on a big turbo 1000rpm is very possibly.

I always map in a higher gear to give a best spool case scenario whilst trying to work within the dynos most accurate roller speed range, otherwise I think the wastegate duty numbers applied will be a little large for the higher gears, (putting in-gear boost compensation aside).

Don't forget that the dynos ramp rate is static, where as a road based scenario has other effects like aerodynamic exponential resistance to make the engine work harder.

Graham

MartynJ 22 December 2011 08:41 PM


Originally Posted by EngineMapper (Post 10390940)

Don't forget that the dynos ramp rate is static, where as a road based scenario has other effects like aerodynamic exponential resistance to make the engine work harder.

Graham

Not to mention the fact that on the dyno it doesn't have to cart your fat hairy arse up the road !
And well put BTW :thumb:

Martyn

banny sti 22 December 2011 08:50 PM

Interesting read......

The Gaffer 23 December 2011 09:39 AM


Originally Posted by EngineMapper (Post 10390940)
My experience, which is much smaller than Kev's or Martyn's on the DD at my place has been that you cannot definitively say what the difference in spool would be without logging that individual car, which in your experience Shaun may be 300rpm in that gear, but certainly won't be the same as the next car that is run.

After-all spool is dictated by simple fluid dynamics in terms of exhaust flow and pressure vs turbine and compressor flow and inertia characteristics, but in practice it is very complex in it's effects.

Looking at it simply, a simple difference in manifold and up-pipe pressure at a given cfm and temperature will give a very different spool-to-rpm point, i.e. second gear full throttle at 4000rpm might generate 360cfm flow at a temperature of 550c, whereas 4000rpm in fifth gear might generate 360cfm at 750c lets say. The fifth gear pull will obviously generate a faster velocity turbine gas flow which will spool the turbo faster. However the time in gear and the generation of exhaust gas flow and temperature will change and so the spool will change, it's inevitable. Albeir second gear is unlikely to generate the same exhaust gas cfm as the turbo spools slower and heat generation is obviously lower because the engine has to do less work etc etc.

I'd say based on just this that anywhere from no change in rpm spool vs the dyno, (if ramp rate equals realistic in gear acceleration time), to a large difference in spool is quite realistic, on a big turbo 1000rpm is very possibly.

I always map in a higher gear to give a best spool case scenario whilst trying to work within the dynos most accurate roller speed range, otherwise I think the wastegate duty numbers applied will be a little large for the higher gears, (putting in-gear boost compensation aside).

Don't forget that the dynos ramp rate is static, where as a road based scenario has other effects like aerodynamic exponential resistance to make the engine work harder.

Graham


Hi,

spot on. :thumb:

every car behaves differently there are so many variables and as we have researched and developed a range of turbos on our dyno we have data logged the spool/boost both on the dyno and on the road in various gears on many cars with different set ups. ;)

What Shaun has found on his car may be correct but it is just one car we see hundreds. :)

Cheers
Kev

Shaun 23 December 2011 02:42 PM

Martyn,
Perhaps I worded my original response badly.... but until you or anyone else explains to me, why what I have said (as that is what I understand) is not correct - then my understanding will be the same.

Perhaps you need to re-read some of your own posts.... you do make a habit of coming across as a condescending **** at times, thinly masked with the odd "lol" or " :D ". Which is quite strange as you have only recently given me information on DD RR stuff off-line, answering a number of queries and questions.

Perhaps that's the "banter" and I've read it the wrong way. :)

Graham,
Thank you for taking the time to explain the detail. I really do appreciate that.

I understand what you're saying, but to underline I had already stated the asumption that the gear would be the same and assuming a DD RR was being used, the ramp rate is the same on all DD RR's. OK I appreciate the "other" car was ran in 3rd, but that's on a 5sp so still a 1:1 gear ratio, so load due to gearing should be nearly the same as 4th on a 6sp (unless I have really got that one wrong which is possible lol ?).

Again, thanks for taking the time to explain.

Kev,
I actually find this interesting.... but I can only apologise for diverting the thread mate. :)

MartynJ 23 December 2011 02:56 PM


Originally Posted by Shaun (Post 10391822)
Martyn,
Perhaps I worded my original response badly.... but until you or anyone else explains to me, why what I have said (as that is what I understand) is not correct - then my understanding will be the same.

Perhaps you need to re-read some of your own posts.... you do make a habit of coming across as a condescending **** at times, thinly masked with the odd "lol" or " :D ". Which is quite strange as you have only recently given me information on DD RR stuff off-line, answering a number of queries and questions.

Perhaps that's the "banter" and I've read it the wrong way. :)

It's all banter Shaun and I certainly don't mean to come across as condescending. As per the mentioned queries, that's how most find me, if I can help I will :thumb:


Originally Posted by Shaun (Post 10391822)

OK I appreciate the "other" car was ran in 3rd, but that's on a 5sp so still a 1:1 gear ratio, so load due to gearing should be nearly the same as 4th on a 6sp (unless I have really got that one wrong which is possible lol ?).

Yes you have :D, take a quick look at the gearbox ratio charts which are around Shaun and you'll find that on a 5 speed box, 4th gear is the one closest to a 1:1 ratio.

Martyn

EngineMapper @ Group B Motorsport 23 December 2011 03:51 PM


Originally Posted by Shaun (Post 10391822)
I understand what you're saying, but to underline I had already stated the asumption that the gear would be the same and assuming a DD RR was being used, the ramp rate is the same on all DD RR's. OK I appreciate the "other" car was ran in 3rd, but that's on a 5sp so still a 1:1 gear ratio, so load due to gearing should be nearly the same as 4th on a 6sp (unless I have really got that one wrong which is possible lol ?).

Looking at some of the 6 speed ratios the closest 1:1 gear is sometimes 5th. Anyhow, I did give a little bit of a mischievous answer to you earlier on in the thread based on this as the DD dyno isn't effected so greatly by the gear ratio dependent calculations, but as stated, I usually run in higher gear as possible. DD say the most accurate roller speed for torque and bhp calculation is between 30mph-100mph I believe.

The other big thing that I really haven't explained fully is the transition of acceleration that you get on the road vs on the dyno. You'll notice that the dyno has a fairly steady rate of acceleration, aside from when you go from no boost too full boost where it tries to maintain the ramp rate. This isn't at all the case on the road where acceleration rapidly changes as you come on boost and then very quickly reduces, (especially in 4th/5th or 6th), as aerodynamic resistance takes hold. So the acceleration in gear on the road will be very different. Hence the reason a car should always be finished off on the road!

More restrictive exhausts produce much greater differences in spool on the road vs dyno as well especially in the higher gears where EGTs are at their highest.

I don't know whether that helps anymore!!

Graham

Andy.F 23 December 2011 08:50 PM

Shaun, I think the short answer for your results differing from the norm is simply that you have mainly been testing small twin scroll turbos, these spool very quickly so the difference between road and rollers will be much closer.

Andy.F 23 December 2011 08:54 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Lets get back to bling anyway, Santa Clinic was delivering early for me.....

Attachment 53149

scoobybry! 23 December 2011 08:57 PM

now thats what i'm talking about gonna be epic this car cant wait to see it in action

kenc 23 December 2011 09:08 PM


Originally Posted by Andy.F (Post 10392406)
Lets get back to bling anyway, Santa Clinic was delivering early for me.....

http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/y...1222-00149.jpg

You lucky Fooker Andy, ive half that picture to look forward too, but wont be untill after Xmas:cry:ly ............ Santa does do Billet Turbos but unfortunetly he passes through Scotland first:lol1:

wrx9181 23 December 2011 09:27 PM

Massive

Andy.F 23 December 2011 09:30 PM

Can't fault Kevs service, turbos arrived at SC from Blouch on Wednesday, he held the delivery driver captive until he printed and applied my address label and they went back out to me on the same van. 10/10 for effort :) Particularly at this time of year, these van drivers don't normally hang about !

kenc 23 December 2011 09:43 PM

Couriers are a law to themselves, i had a package go missing for near a week, turned out it was held in depot 80 miles away as there was no contact number on it, gave the number to the office girl, and it was deliverd next day... but i never got a phone call..wtf?

Hammer man 23 December 2011 11:43 PM


Originally Posted by Andy.F (Post 10392406)

Why does my mind think "Sam Fox" when I look at this????:D

wrx9181 24 December 2011 07:33 AM

Big ariolies

MartynJ 24 December 2011 08:24 AM


Originally Posted by Andy.F (Post 10392461)
Can't fault Kevs service, turbos arrived at SC from Blouch on Wednesday, he held the delivery driver captive until he printed and applied my address label and they went back out to me on the same van. 10/10 for effort :) Particularly at this time of year, these van drivers don't normally hang about !

Can't argue with any of that Andy, Kevs service can only be likened to RCM. Everything next day, packaged well and with the odd joke inside too :thumb:
Oh **** no, that's the invoice :lol1:
Gawd bless im !

Turbos look interesting, GT35 variety this time ?

Martyn

scoobybry! 24 December 2011 09:43 AM

Kevs and the crew at scooby clinic bend over backwards to help us guys out on ukscoobies and have never let us down with help or advice great service up there.

Grant74 24 December 2011 10:18 AM

Did I hear mention of a functioning SC38 above?

I have nothing to add to the luminaries above, aside than to say I would agree with Kev's comment that a car always needs to be finished at least on the road. I had a world of problems with a mapper who refused to finish my car off on the road, where it overboosted dramatically.

Its history now, but always a road map to finish.

My Sc36 boosts much better than its graph on road too.

Andy.F 24 December 2011 12:10 PM


Originally Posted by MartynJ (Post 10392727)
Can't argue with any of that Andy, Kevs service can only be likened to RCM. Everything next day, packaged well and with the odd joke inside too :thumb:
Oh **** no, that's the invoice :lol1:
Gawd bless im !

Turbos look interesting, GT35 variety this time ?

Martyn

I was promised a blow up doll with mine but she seemed to escape from the packaging somehow :D Perhaps the turbos spooling in the box scared her off ;)

These are Billet 30R's but with a bit of my own porting of the housings. The interesting part of these compressor wheels is that 1 - they are lighter and have a lower flow obstruction CSA than the cast versions and 2 - they have an extended tip design so whilst the compressor rotor backplate OD is 75mm in this case, the blades actually extend to 80mm, thus you achieve a flow rate approaching GT35R capacity but lower inertia that improves spool up on the GT30R. Its a proper win-win :)

I can post pics to show this clearer if Kev doesn't mind this sort of detail going public?

The Gaffer 24 December 2011 01:01 PM

1 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by Andy.F (Post 10392941)
I was promised a blow up doll with mine but she seemed to escape from the packaging somehow :D Perhaps the turbos spooling in the box scared her off ;)

These are Billet 30R's but with a bit of my own porting of the housings. The interesting part of these compressor wheels is that 1 - they are lighter and have a lower flow obstruction CSA than the cast versions and 2 - they have an extended tip design so whilst the compressor rotor backplate OD is 75mm in this case, the blades actually extend to 80mm, thus you achieve a flow rate approaching GT35R capacity but lower inertia that improves spool up on the GT30R. Its a proper win-win :)

I can post pics to show this clearer if Kev doesn't mind this sort of detail going public?


Hi,

no problem, post away. :D

Merry Xmas to all. :thumb:

Attachment 53330

Same pic as last year I know but its a bit last minute. :D:D

cheers
Kev

Mad Hammer 24 December 2011 01:50 PM

Car was feeling a little slow was it Andy ? :D

Andy.F 24 December 2011 01:56 PM

Yea, was sometimes having issues power drifting from 3k rpm in 6th ;)

TH3_5T1G 24 December 2011 02:01 PM

Take it you'll be using the magical aid of NOS to spool these puppies up? Might be fast spooling but each one running off 1800cc, 5k rpm full boost perhaps?

But 5k onwards.... Wow :notworthy

Andy.F 24 December 2011 02:39 PM

I hope these spool a bit quicker than the GT30R's that were on there a few months back, they made 1 bar at a smidge over 4k, 1 bar is still like 600bhp so things start happening quickly after that and you certainly aint looking at the dials anymore :D

KAS35RSTI 24 December 2011 02:47 PM

https://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/...fc/popcorn.gif

TH3_5T1G 24 December 2011 03:39 PM


Originally Posted by Andy.F (Post 10393094)
I hope these spool a bit quicker than the GT30R's that were on there a few months back, they made 1 bar at a smidge over 4k, 1 bar is still like 600bhp so things start happening quickly after that and you certainly aint looking at the dials anymore :D

Wow, that is not bad going at all. Is that on just v power? Provided these spool and flow better than the standard SC range, will you be linking up with SC and supplying the 30R's with these fettled features?

Andy.F 24 December 2011 04:10 PM

My fettling will not affect the spool up, it should help a little at the top end but we are not talking big differences here, its just one of the many little tweeks that I add to my car!

The EG33 has shorter headers and different cam profiles from any 4 cyl engine so thats possibly where I score on spool up.

kenc 24 December 2011 04:32 PM

Well Andy your certainly getting me excited anout the GT30 billet:)

And Martyn even more with the thoughts of a Blow up doll spooling up and popping out of the box...

why is it now:wonder: when i think of Kev and the Clinic i will think of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yu8b-03LQTg


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