ScoobyNet.com - Subaru Enthusiast Forum

ScoobyNet.com - Subaru Enthusiast Forum (https://www.scoobynet.com/)
-   Non Scooby Related (https://www.scoobynet.com/non-scooby-related-4/)
-   -   Israel thread (https://www.scoobynet.com/non-scooby-related-4/888171-israel-thread.html)

hodgy0_2 17 May 2011 10:33 PM


Originally Posted by tony de wonderful (Post 10044839)
The Pallies aren't slaves.

hanging chad

tony de wonderful 17 May 2011 10:37 PM


Originally Posted by JTaylor (Post 10043471)
It's fashionable amongst Limousine Liberals - mung beans, kaftans and anti-Israeli rhetoric borrowed from Islamists. Normally wave banners like 'Hussein not Haliburton', 'liberals against liberalism' and 'Pacifists for Iranian Nuclear Armament' and find people with exotic names 'inspiring'. Whilst not bothering with the 'details' like, for example, the religious and political history of the region's super powers, they do like to mention their leftist credentials. Their logic reads: The hawks are bad, therefor anyone the hawks support are bad and their opponents are good. Man. :cool:

The euro left need a cause ever since they because irreverent with fall of Communism.

So they make the Pallies their client to fight against 'oppression', 'imperialism' etc.

It's exploitative.

The more they can lie and make out the Pallies are more victims than they are, the more their cause is worthy etc, so they use propaganda etc. All to give themselves a purpose and cause even if that cause is a lie to some extent.

AsifScoob 17 May 2011 10:40 PM

Looks like SN has developed its own little IDF. How cute? :D

Don't dare to call them biased though, you couldn't find a more objective bunch! :D

JTaylor 17 May 2011 10:44 PM


Originally Posted by AsifScoob (Post 10044722)
Ok, but I refer to my earlier point, that with all of that support, you couldn't fail to succeed, IMO.

Do you think it was just the dollar or the adopted model? It's the latter that will make Israel sustainable.


Originally Posted by AsifScoob (Post 10044722)
Look at the Saudi's or Qataris, whoever has the highest per capita income in the World: An obvious sign of success, but no one would really say, "Oh yes, look at them, aren't they great?" Would they??

No, they wouldn't because their GDP is as a result of oil-wealth and I'm
not measuring success simply on GDP.


Originally Posted by AsifScoob (Post 10044722)
Are you saying that because they are 'successful' they are allowed to be immoral? That goes for both the Israelis and the Saudis?

No.


Originally Posted by AsifScoob (Post 10044722)
By default because the Palestinians are 'unsuccessful', we can do to them what we please?

No, we can't, but history suggests that if you're weak you fail. I'm asking you and others why Israel is being blamed for Palestinian weakness when Israel's been there for 65 years and Palestine 500 years?


Originally Posted by AsifScoob (Post 10044722)
Is this 'Might is right' again?

Nope. Might is. Why are the Palestinians unable to compete? That's the question I'm asking. The Jews, the Yanks? How about the Palestinians and their bumbling leadership taking the majority of the responsibilty for being turned over? Can you imagine us lot blaming the Argies if they'd won the Falklands? We'd have blamed Maggie, The RAF and The Navy for arsing it up. So, why, after 500 years, are the Palestinians still throwing stones and using humans as weapons and shields?

markjmd 17 May 2011 10:44 PM


Originally Posted by tony de wonderful (Post 10044836)
He'll just keep saying Israel were 'helped'. It suits his agenda.

The Pally Authority has incidentally received billions in aid...indeed it is funded by the EU! Nobody gets more aid than the Pallies.

Yep, and they also have an entire UN department exclusively devoted to furthering the cause of their victimhood, a situation unparalleled in the entire history of the organization.

hodgy0_2 17 May 2011 10:49 PM


Originally Posted by JTaylor (Post 10044881)

Nope. Might is. Why are the Palestinians unable to compete? That's the question I'm asking. The Jews, the Yanks? How about the Palestinians and their bumbling leadership taking the majority of the responsibilty for being turned over? Can you imagine us lot blaming the Argies if they'd won the Falklands? We'd have blamed Maggie, The RAF and The Navy for arsing it up. So, why, after 500 years, are the Palestinians still throwing stones and using humans as weapons and shields?

so you must have a sneaking admiration for the Iranians trying to get the Atomic bomb

JTaylor 17 May 2011 10:51 PM


Originally Posted by hodgy0_2 (Post 10044899)
so you must have a sneaking admiration for the Iranians trying to get the Atomic bomb

Absolutely.

hodgy0_2 17 May 2011 10:52 PM

two sides same coin

JTaylor 17 May 2011 10:53 PM


Originally Posted by hodgy0_2 (Post 10044908)
two sides same coin

Elucidate.

tony de wonderful 17 May 2011 10:54 PM

You may ask how the Pallies are supposed to come to some peace arrangement when you have so many vested interests in perpetuating the conflict?

Look at Hezzbollah for example, every time you have some ceasefire they attack the IDF. How does that help the Pallies? Hezzbollah would have no purpose if the Pallies had peace.

f1_fan 17 May 2011 11:19 PM


Originally Posted by hodgy0_2 (Post 10044899)
so you must have a sneaking admiration for the Iranians trying to get the Atomic bomb

I do and look forward to the day that 'might is' Iranian style :D :D

JTaylor 17 May 2011 11:31 PM


Originally Posted by f1_fan (Post 10044964)
I do and look forward to the day that 'might is' Iranian style :D :D

Interesting.

f1_fan 17 May 2011 11:40 PM


Originally Posted by JTaylor (Post 10044981)
Interesting.

Tsk tsk, thiught I'd get a better reaction than that ;)

AsifScoob 18 May 2011 12:23 AM


Originally Posted by JTaylor (Post 10044881)
Do you think it was just the dollar or the adopted model? It's the latter that will make Israel sustainable.

Not sure. The model they have is definitely more sustainable and desirable, but can they stand on their own two feet? No. They are just as helpless as the Palestinians in that regard. They just think they are the chosen ones.



Originally Posted by JTaylor (Post 10044881)
No, they wouldn't because their GDP is as a result of oil-wealth and I'm
not measuring success simply on GDP.

Ok, we all have different measures of 'success'.



Originally Posted by JTaylor (Post 10044881)
No, we can't, but history suggests that if you're weak you fail. I'm asking you and others why Israel is being blamed for Palestinian weakness when Israel's been there for 65 years and Palestine 500 years?

What condition were the Palestinians in before the creation of Israel and where are they today? What has been the major factor of change in that time. Therein lies your answer. It's crystal clear to me.


Originally Posted by JTaylor (Post 10044881)
Nope. Might is. Why are the Palestinians unable to compete? That's the question I'm asking. The Jews, the Yanks? How about the Palestinians and their bumbling leadership taking the majority of the responsibilty for being turned over? Can you imagine us lot blaming the Argies if they'd won the Falklands? We'd have blamed Maggie, The RAF and The Navy for arsing it up. So, why, after 500 years, are the Palestinians still throwing stones and using humans as weapons and shields?

If Israel was as bombed, persecuted, blockaded, embargoed, poor, etc as the Palestinians, would we be hailing their success? No. They are not strong per se, they just have rich, strong, generous, friends. There is a difference.

Seems like we haven't moved in over the last few thousand years of Human existence.

Suresh 18 May 2011 01:04 AM

At the same time that Israel was created with a few hundred thousand refugees, Britain was busy partitioning India and creating fifteen million refugees. In heavy contrast there are no refugee camps on the subcontinent two generations later where residents wallow in self-pity and sup from subsidised bowl of fail. I suggest the status quo suits the Arab agenda to bash Israel whatever the cost.

AsifScoob 18 May 2011 01:38 AM


Originally Posted by Suresh (Post 10045054)
At the same time that Israel was created with a few hundred thousand refugees, Britain was busy partitioning India and creating fifteen million refugees. In heavy contrast there are no refugee camps on the subcontinent two generations later where residents wallow in self-pity and sup from subsidised bowl of fail. I suggest the status quo suits the Arab agenda to bash Israel whatever the cost.

There is a slight difference, as you have stated, the land was partitioned, carefully planned, and drawn out on a map. But how many died?

Palestine was just a land grab, by some Europeans, of a chunk of the ME. And we all know why that was.

I am no fan of Arabs but why shouldn't they 'bash' Israel? Please refer to an earlier post of mine for a suitable metaphor of the situation. It got some laughs!

Asif

PS. Hope you're well by the way, long time.

JTaylor 18 May 2011 02:48 AM


Originally Posted by AsifScoob (Post 10045032)
Not sure. The model they have is definitely more sustainable and desirable, but can they stand on their own two feet? No. They are just as helpless as the Palestinians in that regard. They just think they are the chosen ones.

First point: "The model they have is definitely more sustainable and desirable", good. So why don't Palestine, Palestinians and more countries in that region promote said model instead of vilifying it?

Second: "but can they stand on their own two feet? No." What evidence are you basing that statement on, please?


Originally Posted by AsifScoob (Post 10045032)
Ok, we all have different measures of 'success'.

Yep. Clearly GDP is an indicator, although I was referring much more towards the UN HDI index:

Israel ranked 15th in 2010

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index

The UAE are the first ranking nation from the Arab world at 32nd. :confused: What the blazes is all that a about? These guys have been around for ever! We're not talking a little island here like the UK. We're talking a lot of countries! Why? Is the index wrong, perhaps? If it is, I'm open minded and happy to be put right on it. How can Israel hit 15th after 65 years and the nearest Arab country, who've been kicking around for millenia, first register at 32nd? And it's been said several times, that America are behind Israel. Well, they come in at 4th spot. Not bad at all. Now if I lived in Tunisia, Libya Egypt and arguably some of the Middle Eastern countries, I imagine that I'd reason my way to wanting those systems of governance for my friends and family and countrymen. I don't think I'd vote in an ideology that barely ranks. So why on earth are Hamas at the helm in Palestine? But, and it's a matter of record, you imply that this choice is Israel's fault. Israel guide the minds of the Palestinians? The UN projects Israel at 9th in 2030.


Originally Posted by AsifScoob (Post 10045032)
What condition were the Palestinians in before the creation of Israel and where are they today? What has been the major factor of change in that time. Therein lies your answer. It's crystal clear to me.

Tell me, please.


Originally Posted by AsifScoob (Post 10045032)
If Israel was as bombed, persecuted, blockaded, embargoed, poor, etc as the Palestinians, would we be hailing their success? No. They are not strong per se, they just have rich, strong, generous, friends. There is a difference.

Ok. Good skills by the Jews, then.


Originally Posted by AsifScoob (Post 10045032)
Seems like we haven't moved in over the last few thousand years of Human existence.

Whilst there are competing ideologies there will always be this kind of nonsense to contend with.

Luan Pra bang 18 May 2011 11:01 AM

Once agaon Jtaylor does not like to discuss the moral position and ethinic cleansing tactics of Israel and zionism so he resorts to attacks on the Palestinians. Jtaylor you are completely ignoring the fact that Hamas and Hezbollah are a construct created by Israeli aggression, without Zionism and ethnic cleansing they would not exist. If palestinians did not have these terrorist groups it is doubtfull that they would exist.
You seem to be ignoring the fact that hamas did not start untill 1987 the Israelis deliberately encourage armed resitance to make it appear OK to kill inoocent people. You also ignore Jtaylor, that palestinians don not have a state ? Its interesting that the US and Israel believe they have a right to deny them this ?
With no state what method of defence do they have apart from terrorism ?
JTaylor do you admit that the goal of zionism was to remove arabs from Israel ?

Mus 18 May 2011 02:22 PM


Originally Posted by Luan Pra bang (Post 10045376)
Once agaon Jtaylor does not like to discuss the moral position and ethinic cleansing tactics of Israel and zionism so he resorts to attacks on the Palestinians. Jtaylor you are completely ignoring the fact that Hamas and Hezbollah are a construct created by Israeli aggression, without Zionism and ethnic cleansing they would not exist. If palestinians did not have these terrorist groups it is doubtfull that they would exist.
You seem to be ignoring the fact that hamas did not start untill 1987 the Israelis deliberately encourage armed resitance to make it appear OK to kill inoocent people. You also ignore Jtaylor, that palestinians don not have a state ? Its interesting that the US and Israel believe they have a right to deny them this ?
With no state what method of defence do they have apart from terrorism ?
JTaylor do you admit that the goal of zionism was to remove arabs from Israel ?

1+

banny sti 18 May 2011 02:23 PM


Originally Posted by Luan Pra bang (Post 10045376)
Once agaon Jtaylor does not like to discuss the moral position and ethinic cleansing tactics of Israel and zionism so he resorts to attacks on the Palestinians. Jtaylor you are completely ignoring the fact that Hamas and Hezbollah are a construct created by Israeli aggression, without Zionism and ethnic cleansing they would not exist. If palestinians did not have these terrorist groups it is doubtfull that they would exist.
You seem to be ignoring the fact that hamas did not start untill 1987 the Israelis deliberately encourage armed resitance to make it appear OK to kill inoocent people. You also ignore Jtaylor, that palestinians don not have a state ? Its interesting that the US and Israel believe they have a right to deny them this ?
With no state what method of defence do they have apart from terrorism ?
JTaylor do you admit that the goal of zionism was to remove arabs from Israel ?

+2

tony de wonderful 18 May 2011 02:27 PM


Originally Posted by Luan Pra bang (Post 10045376)
the Israelis deliberately encourage armed resitance to make it appear OK to kill inoocent people. You also ignore Jtaylor, that palestinians don not have a state ?

On what basis do you say that? Do you have any evidence for that?


Originally Posted by Luan Pra bang (Post 10045376)
Its interesting that the US and Israel believe they have a right to deny them this ?
With no state what method of defence do they have apart from terrorism ?
JTaylor do you admit that the goal of zionism was to remove arabs from Israel ?

No they have been offered a two state solution and now the PA is a kind of pseudo-state.

How is blowing up Israeli citizens a 'defense'? What is that defending against?

BTW the Pallies never had a state ever anyway.

Under the original partition plans they were offered a state.

Luan Pra bang 18 May 2011 07:23 PM

Read this then talk to me about camp david.

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1113

Suresh 18 May 2011 07:27 PM


Originally Posted by AsifScoob (Post 10045062)
There is a slight difference, as you have stated, the land was partitioned, carefully planned, and drawn out on a map. But how many died?

Palestine was just a land grab, by some Europeans, of a chunk of the ME. And we all know why that was.

I am no fan of Arabs but why shouldn't they 'bash' Israel? Please refer to an earlier post of mine for a suitable metaphor of the situation. It got some laughs!

Asif

PS. Hope you're well by the way, long time.

I'm doing great thanks Asif. The partition of India was anything but carefully planned. A British civil servant drew the border on a map in his Bombay hotel room without visiting the places he was dividing. It was done and dusted in just a few months so how could he possibly do otherwise? As far as I know about a million people lost their lives during partition.

Problems in the post-war ME pale into insignificance in comparison and the Pals could have been given a leg up and got on with their lives despite the wrong that was done to them.

Sad that the leaders of many countries in the region are treating their own people worse than Israel treats the Pallies but there is strangely no vociferous criticism.

tony de wonderful 18 May 2011 07:50 PM


Originally Posted by Luan Pra bang (Post 10046170)
Read this then talk to me about camp david.

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1113

Regardless of that opinion piece, Arafat did not get back with a counter offer.

AsifScoob 19 May 2011 01:03 AM


Originally Posted by JTaylor (Post 10045070)
First point: "The model they have is definitely more sustainable and desirable", good. So why don't Palestine, Palestinians and more countries in that region promote said model instead of vilifying it?

Sorry but the fscts behind your question are incorrect. Who's vilifying 'it'?



Originally Posted by JTaylor (Post 10045070)
Second: "but can they stand on their own two feet? No." What evidence are you basing that statement on, please?

Err...billions in aid??



Originally Posted by JTaylor (Post 10045070)
Yep. Clearly GDP is an indicator, although I was referring much more towards the UN HDI index:

Israel ranked 15th in 2010

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index

The UAE are the first ranking nation from the Arab world at 32nd. :confused: What the blazes is all that a about? These guys have been around for ever! We're not talking a little island here like the UK. We're talking a lot of countries! Why? Is the index wrong, perhaps? If it is, I'm open minded and happy to be put right on it. How can Israel hit 15th after 65 years and the nearest Arab country, who've been kicking around for millenia, first register at 32nd? And it's been said several times, that America are behind Israel. Well, they come in at 4th spot. Not bad at all. Now if I lived in Tunisia, Libya Egypt and arguably some of the Middle Eastern countries, I imagine that I'd reason my way to wanting those systems of governance for my friends and family and countrymen. I don't think I'd vote in an ideology that barely ranks. So why on earth are Hamas at the helm in Palestine? But, and it's a matter of record, you imply that this choice is Israel's fault. Israel guide the minds of the Palestinians? The UN projects Israel at 9th in 2030.

Who knows?


Originally Posted by JTaylor (Post 10045070)
Tell me, please.

I'm going to guess - it was a hell of a lot better than it was today?


Originally Posted by JTaylor (Post 10045070)
Ok. Good skills by the Jews, then.

If leeching billions in aid from the World largest superpower, whilst stealing its secrets, and killing loads of innocent people and astealing their land is good skills, then yes, I agree with you. Otherwise, no it's not.


Originally Posted by JTaylor (Post 10045070)
Whilst there are competing ideologies there will always be this kind of nonsense to contend with.

I suppose, but then why don't we stop calling ourselves 'civilised' and 'peaceful' when all we want to do is to take everything off everyone, seemingly?

AsifScoob 19 May 2011 01:06 AM


Originally Posted by tony de wonderful (Post 10045652)
On what basis do you say that? Do you have any evidence for that?



No they have been offered a two state solution and now the PA is a kind of pseudo-state.

How is blowing up Israeli citizens a 'defense'? What is that defending against?

BTW the Pallies never had a state ever anyway.

Under the original partition plans they were offered a state.

You can't be 'offered' a state in your own land, knowing the pre conditions will be prohibitive, can you?

Why don't you stop this attempt at objectivity? What has Israel got to do with you anyway? Common enemies? What a pile of nonsense!

AsifScoob 19 May 2011 01:12 AM


Originally Posted by Suresh (Post 10046180)
I'm doing great thanks Asif. The partition of India was anything but carefully planned. A British civil servant drew the border on a map in his Bombay hotel room without visiting the places he was dividing. It was done and dusted in just a few months so how could he possibly do otherwise? As far as I know about a million people lost their lives during partition.

Problems in the post-war ME pale into insignificance in comparison and the Pals could have been given a leg up and got on with their lives despite the wrong that was done to them.

Sad that the leaders of many countries in the region are treating their own people worse than Israel treats the Pallies but there is strangely no vociferous criticism.

Good to hear, hope the kids are well?

You're right there of course, but I meant in comparison to the creation of Israel. No doubt about the Partition being a major event in human history, with such an impact. My Father lost nine members of his family during it, including his Mother and almost lost his own life. (Imagine what impact THAT would have had?!:D)

The rest of your post is absolutely spot on also, very sad indeed, and affects all of us IMO.

Asif

AsifScoob 19 May 2011 01:13 AM


Originally Posted by tony de wonderful (Post 10046222)
Regardless of that opinion piece, Arafat did not get back with a counter offer.

Since when have you ever posted anything irrefutably factual?:Whatever_

tony de wonderful 19 May 2011 09:08 AM


Originally Posted by AsifScoob (Post 10046824)
You can't be 'offered' a state in your own land, knowing the pre conditions will be prohibitive, can you?

The 1947 UN partition plan offered 'The Palestinians' a state.

They never had a state previously.

tony de wonderful 19 May 2011 09:12 AM


Originally Posted by AsifScoob (Post 10046829)
Since when have you ever posted anything irrefutably factual?:Whatever_

Perhaps you can tell us what Arafats counter offer was?


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:36 PM.


© 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands