hanging chad

The euro left need a cause ever since they because irreverent with fall of Communism.

So they make the Pallies their client to fight against 'oppression', 'imperialism' etc.

It's exploitative.

The more they can lie and make out the Pallies are more victims than they are, the more their cause is worthy etc, so they use propaganda etc. All to give themselves a purpose and cause even if that cause is a lie to some extent.

Looks like SN has developed its own little IDF. How cute? :D

Don't dare to call them biased though, you couldn't find a more objective bunch! :D

Do you think it was just the dollar or the adopted model? It's the latter that will make Israel sustainable.

No, they wouldn't because their GDP is as a result of oil-wealth and I'm
not measuring success simply on GDP.

No.

No, we can't, but history suggests that if you're weak you fail. I'm asking you and others why Israel is being blamed for Palestinian weakness when Israel's been there for 65 years and Palestine 500 years?

Nope. Might is. Why are the Palestinians unable to compete? That's the question I'm asking. The Jews, the Yanks? How about the Palestinians and their bumbling leadership taking the majority of the responsibilty for being turned over? Can you imagine us lot blaming the Argies if they'd won the Falklands? We'd have blamed Maggie, The RAF and The Navy for arsing it up. So, why, after 500 years, are the Palestinians still throwing stones and using humans as weapons and shields?

Yep, and they also have an entire UN department exclusively devoted to furthering the cause of their victimhood, a situation unparalleled in the entire history of the organization.

so you must have a sneaking admiration for the Iranians trying to get the Atomic bomb

Absolutely.

two sides same coin

Elucidate.

You may ask how the Pallies are supposed to come to some peace arrangement when you have so many vested interests in perpetuating the conflict?

Look at Hezzbollah for example, every time you have some ceasefire they attack the IDF. How does that help the Pallies? Hezzbollah would have no purpose if the Pallies had peace.

I do and look forward to the day that 'might is' Iranian style :D :D

Interesting.

Tsk tsk, thiught I'd get a better reaction than that ;)

Not sure. The model they have is definitely more sustainable and desirable, but can they stand on their own two feet? No. They are just as helpless as the Palestinians in that regard. They just think they are the chosen ones.


Ok, we all have different measures of 'success'.


What condition were the Palestinians in before the creation of Israel and where are they today? What has been the major factor of change in that time. Therein lies your answer. It's crystal clear to me.

If Israel was as bombed, persecuted, blockaded, embargoed, poor, etc as the Palestinians, would we be hailing their success? No. They are not strong per se, they just have rich, strong, generous, friends. There is a difference.

Seems like we haven't moved in over the last few thousand years of Human existence.

At the same time that Israel was created with a few hundred thousand refugees, Britain was busy partitioning India and creating fifteen million refugees. In heavy contrast there are no refugee camps on the subcontinent two generations later where residents wallow in self-pity and sup from subsidised bowl of fail. I suggest the status quo suits the Arab agenda to bash Israel whatever the cost.

There is a slight difference, as you have stated, the land was partitioned, carefully planned, and drawn out on a map. But how many died?

Palestine was just a land grab, by some Europeans, of a chunk of the ME. And we all know why that was.

I am no fan of Arabs but why shouldn't they 'bash' Israel? Please refer to an earlier post of mine for a suitable metaphor of the situation. It got some laughs!

Asif

PS. Hope you're well by the way, long time.

First point: "The model they have is definitely more sustainable and desirable", good. So why don't Palestine, Palestinians and more countries in that region promote said model instead of vilifying it?

Second: "but can they stand on their own two feet? No." What evidence are you basing that statement on, please?

Yep. Clearly GDP is an indicator, although I was referring much more towards the UN HDI index:

Israel ranked 15th in 2010

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index

The UAE are the first ranking nation from the Arab world at 32nd. :confused: What the blazes is all that a about? These guys have been around for ever! We're not talking a little island here like the UK. We're talking a lot of countries! Why? Is the index wrong, perhaps? If it is, I'm open minded and happy to be put right on it. How can Israel hit 15th after 65 years and the nearest Arab country, who've been kicking around for millenia, first register at 32nd? And it's been said several times, that America are behind Israel. Well, they come in at 4th spot. Not bad at all. Now if I lived in Tunisia, Libya Egypt and arguably some of the Middle Eastern countries, I imagine that I'd reason my way to wanting those systems of governance for my friends and family and countrymen. I don't think I'd vote in an ideology that barely ranks. So why on earth are Hamas at the helm in Palestine? But, and it's a matter of record, you imply that this choice is Israel's fault. Israel guide the minds of the Palestinians? The UN projects Israel at 9th in 2030.

Tell me, please.

Ok. Good skills by the Jews, then.

Whilst there are competing ideologies there will always be this kind of nonsense to contend with.

Once agaon Jtaylor does not like to discuss the moral position and ethinic cleansing tactics of Israel and zionism so he resorts to attacks on the Palestinians. Jtaylor you are completely ignoring the fact that Hamas and Hezbollah are a construct created by Israeli aggression, without Zionism and ethnic cleansing they would not exist. If palestinians did not have these terrorist groups it is doubtfull that they would exist.
You seem to be ignoring the fact that hamas did not start untill 1987 the Israelis deliberately encourage armed resitance to make it appear OK to kill inoocent people. You also ignore Jtaylor, that palestinians don not have a state ? Its interesting that the US and Israel believe they have a right to deny them this ?
With no state what method of defence do they have apart from terrorism ?
JTaylor do you admit that the goal of zionism was to remove arabs from Israel ?

1+

+2

On what basis do you say that? Do you have any evidence for that?

No they have been offered a two state solution and now the PA is a kind of pseudo-state.

How is blowing up Israeli citizens a 'defense'? What is that defending against?

BTW the Pallies never had a state ever anyway.

Under the original partition plans they were offered a state.

Read this then talk to me about camp david.

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1113

I'm doing great thanks Asif. The partition of India was anything but carefully planned. A British civil servant drew the border on a map in his Bombay hotel room without visiting the places he was dividing. It was done and dusted in just a few months so how could he possibly do otherwise? As far as I know about a million people lost their lives during partition.

Problems in the post-war ME pale into insignificance in comparison and the Pals could have been given a leg up and got on with their lives despite the wrong that was done to them.

Sad that the leaders of many countries in the region are treating their own people worse than Israel treats the Pallies but there is strangely no vociferous criticism.

Regardless of that opinion piece, Arafat did not get back with a counter offer.

Sorry but the fscts behind your question are incorrect. Who's vilifying 'it'?


Err...billions in aid??


Who knows?

I'm going to guess - it was a hell of a lot better than it was today?

If leeching billions in aid from the World largest superpower, whilst stealing its secrets, and killing loads of innocent people and astealing their land is good skills, then yes, I agree with you. Otherwise, no it's not.

I suppose, but then why don't we stop calling ourselves 'civilised' and 'peaceful' when all we want to do is to take everything off everyone, seemingly?

You can't be 'offered' a state in your own land, knowing the pre conditions will be prohibitive, can you?

Why don't you stop this attempt at objectivity? What has Israel got to do with you anyway? Common enemies? What a pile of nonsense!

Good to hear, hope the kids are well?

You're right there of course, but I meant in comparison to the creation of Israel. No doubt about the Partition being a major event in human history, with such an impact. My Father lost nine members of his family during it, including his Mother and almost lost his own life. (Imagine what impact THAT would have had?!:D)

The rest of your post is absolutely spot on also, very sad indeed, and affects all of us IMO.

Asif

Since when have you ever posted anything irrefutably factual?:Whatever_

The 1947 UN partition plan offered 'The Palestinians' a state.

They never had a state previously.

Perhaps you can tell us what Arafats counter offer was?