My religion allows me to live in and experience both the heavens and the earth. Yours excludes the former.

You think, or hope, it does. You live in the real world. You experience it. Please tell me how you have experienced heaven. Not through scripture, that's just an account, someone else's account. What real, physical way have you had any interaction with heaven? I take it you haven't been there, or you would be dead and not posting here.

If it manifests itself in any way shape or form, that someone could truly, objectively say "well, that pretty much seems like heaven to me", provide an example of it.

In which case why not stick to talking about walls and roofs, rather than trying to appear knowledgeable about something about which, by your very own admission, you've forgotten about.


You're a walking contradiction Ditchy, and sometimes you either post a load of sh1te which you attempt to pass off as reality, or you attempt to appear smarter than perhaps you really are. We've seen it on other threads where you've bailed when called out on that.


Know your limitations mate. None of us are as smart as we sometimes like to think.

you did not challenge it at all - you support it

yes you are correct it could be anything at all - in fact there are an infinite number of things that could exist in the gap - a giant singing cucumber juggling wednesday afternoons is one, along with God

I lack a belief in any of the above, until I see some sort of evidence

so I am not quite sure what point you are making

Heaven is atonement with the Father through the Son's death and resurrection. It is the promise of a new earth where there is no suffering. Heaven is the cloak of Christ's perfection and my rebirth via my Master's purifying blood. Heaven is the absolute forgiveness of sins in an unforgiving world. Heaven is the knowledge of knowing from whence we came and to where we will go and how we can lift the curse of the now.

I see heaven in the prospect of man becoming fully human in the Christ Jesus and the restoration of the Garden. In justice. In wisdom. In beauty. In love.

I see heaven as the prospect of you knowing the truths I express above; the belief that should you seek and knock you too will find joy unspeakable and full of glory beyond the realms of the material.

the problem is science does not work by rhetoric or assertion (see above)

that's why they are incompatible at a fundamental level

and you have to "dance the dance" to get them to fit

it is obvious you are conflicted in this JT

Read your first statement and then read your fourth.

lol, yes one is a fact that other an observation - supported by evidence

Not one tangible thing. They all point to a place that exists purely in your imagination, or anyone's imagination.

You cannot honestly say you, or anyone else you can speak to, has experienced Heaven. To say otherwise would be deceitful. You have simply described what you hope or think Heaven is. The last statement about it being beyond the realms of material is classic "oh it's beyond your science, so you can't disprove it" line.

Then you have misinterpreted your evidence. As God is my witness, I am not conflicted. Not anymore.

Yeah I will confess I think I over thought your comment slightly. What i was ultimately trying to get at is a lot of people will simple assert that god doesn't exist when the reality is it's just as likely as any of the other options.

Earth is tangible. You asked me to present a case for heaven. You should read some Plato, Geezer. ;)

I think that what you should say is that in reality that something may exist, but the the god of the bible doesn't exist. If there is a God, it won't be anything like what is described in the Bible.

What if this is (or was) heaven James? And we've just f*cked it up?


(as humans are prone to doing)

then I apologise

That's very gracious of you, sir. Accepted without hesitation!

mmm dd may have a point

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.sco...55f14ff335.png

You mean we've fallen? Eden was here on earth when we were at one with God (at-one-ment). Adam and Eve didn't know of death until the serpent whispered in the latter's ear and she and Adam fell in to temptation. "You can be like God" whispered the serpent. Christ, the new Adam, came to restore us from that fall. Belief in Him sees death conquered, the serpent's head crushed and leads humanity back to the Garden.

You can't touch hope, but it exists in that story. :luxhello:

No need to go back, Jesus intervened. As the old adage says, "when you're going through hell, keep going."

I was going to let it slide, but I don't entertain threats.

I haven't tried to psychoanalyse you in my post that you quoted. Your own posts clearly display how random, shallow and evasive you are, about your own contents, but still downright insulting to James. Even Neil had noticed how condescending you are. You think you have James by his bollox due to his airy-fairy beliefs and that makes you the biggest brain of Britain as well as Croatia! LOL what exactly are you on?? :D

Regarding that blast in the past, it was other way round because you think that since your mother worked in mental health, that entitles you to self-proclaim as a natural Freud. :freak3: You succumbed to personal insults then, and that's what you do with everyone who you may feel a bit challenged with. Sometimes, because of no reason whatsoever. You get your goat bleating when someone talks a bit high-browed; even when it's nothing against you.

So please, don't threaten me with saying 'it didn't work out well, did it' and trying to daunt me with your 'personal insults' trump card. If you start that, it will only show your deepening insecurities, no loss to me.

Again, you're projecting what I actually said to you in my previous post.

Patronising again, eh? Some things never change LOL. :D Don't try to give made-up reasons that I was skipping your posts hence my lack of understanding of your highly charged 'intellectual' :cool: remarks. I even waited for you to explain the relevance of that 'peanuts and monkeys' business, which you didn't. That must be, because you can't. That could be because you perhaps only threw it randomly. Perhaps you yourself had no idea whether it made any sense or not. Your performance on this thread has been terribly disjointed and absurd, Ditch.

Now stop giving it large and admit that you're limited with your knowledge and interaction skills. Check out Neil, Hodgy and Geezer's exchanges with JT and learn from it. Then engage in a debate in a reasonable way. Or, continue to display yourself like a fool for everyone to see.

Here, even others can see how out-of-depth you are, on this thread. DD is also asking you to cut the crap and STFU:

With this, I rest my case with you in this instance. Interaction with you here on this thread is hardly stimulating and it's not worth my time.

Agreed. As I said earlier on the subject of cross referencing, I can't help but think that if there is a god then it will ultimately be somewhere in the middle of what the various religions say.

Why do you dispute the notion that Christ is God incarnate?

http://www.counselling-directory.org...ggressive.html

:)

I don't particularly dispute it but I also have no reason to believe it. That being said I'm also open to the possibility I could be wrong.

Sounds to me like you're at a crossroads, Neil. Choose a path and walk it, that way we can have a proper debate. Or I get to call you brother.

Not really, my default position would be that there isn't such thing as God and thus Jesus couldn't have been his earthly body. That being said I wouldn't have the audacity to say that as anything other than an opinion given the extent of my own knowledge (The goldylocks enigma being one such example that makes me wonder).

Not heard that one before.But I like that :)

Just back from a church meeting where a brother and sister from Open Doors* gave a convicting presentation regarding their mission in northern Iraq. The persecution faced by Christians at the hands of IS is heartbreaking.

One family had had their three year old daughter taken from them by IS as they fled Mosul; apparently the younger the girl the more she can be sold for at the 'market'. Jesus wept. If you've never prayed before I'd ask that you mutter something skywards that acknowledges the evil that is IS and that you ask God to protect that little girl. I thank God that those families can still find hope and consolation in Jesus and shudder to think what their lives would be without Him.

If you'd like to give to the work, there's an opportunity to do so on the webpage.

* http://www.opendoorsuk.org

Hi,
To be honest - people of all faiths, backgrounds and nationalities are being persecuted by IS in Iraq and overseas (even their own followers).
I just looked at the Opendoors website and was very disappointed at their homepage.
Their strap line is "60 years of serving persecuted Christians" - which sounds great.
Then you read their About Us at the bottom of the page - that is the real disappointment.
Their first stated job is delivering bibles! The people they are serving need a bit more help than a bible!
I hope they do a lot more than this, in reality and that they help in more constructive ways than bible distribution.
Cheers
Steve

Morning, Steve. It's tragic that so many are suffering at the hands of Islamic State and Open Doors' aim is to support their brothers and sisters in faith. On the face of it it may seem peculiar to single out Christians, but actually OD are carrying out their religious duty. There's a quote at the bottom of the page that says this "If one part (of the body) suffers, every part suffers with it" which is from 1 Corinthians 12:26. OD and I believe that helping persecuted Christians, not just in Iraq, but across the world, alleviates the suffering of Christians everywhere. There are numerous other charities who tend to other worthy causes and many of the volunteers are indeed Christians. I guess if every charitable organisation had a universal remit they would spread themselves very thin and may well risk being less effective. For me, whilst your point is a fair one, I could equally question why Save the Children don't save adults and why Cancer Research doesn't research AIDS.

The belief of the Christian is that by giving people the Bible you open a door through which people can walk in to a room of hope and consolation. Whilst this may not seem practical, when one is tormented by the knowledge that one's daughter is in the clutches of evil, the means of grace found within the Book is of tremendous importance. It can keep people alive. When one has an understanding of why evil exists and how that evil will be defeated, one goes on to find the strength to live each day and carry out the means of physical survival.

Open Doors can't be everything to everyone, but they can attend to the body of Christ. In that way they help to shore up the foundation of world.