I used to be semi skilled in Christian apologetics in that I could out argue the vast majority I came across, but I suspect that would not have included JT. However, most of them had just been convinced to believe in fairies, and they knew it.
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Originally Posted by JTaylor
(Post 11709222)
You are and to whom do you give thanks for that?
All my life long friends parents for not brainwashing any of us to subject our humanity to a supernatural being And if any of my children did become religious, I would see that as a failure in my parenting/teaching |
Originally Posted by JTaylor
(Post 11709236)
Yes, in terms of Christian apologetics you're attempting to deal here with 'the problem of evil' rather than the similar, but distinct, 'moral argument'.
https://www.scoobynet.com/1019401-go...l#post11619221 https://www.scoobynet.com/1019401-go...l#post11637137 Ultimately, God is just. Presumably it should be blindly obvious Show me an area country or region of this planet that demonstrates religion works, and produces justice |
Originally Posted by hodgy0_2
(Post 11709242)
My parents, my wife,s parents
All my life long friends parents for not brainwashing any of us to subject our humanity to a supernatural being And if any of my children did become religious, I would see that as a failure in my parenting/teaching |
Originally Posted by hodgy0_2
(Post 11709245)
Where is the evidence for this, in the "here and now"
Presumably it should be blindly obvious Show me an area country or region of this planet that demonstrates religion works, and produces justice |
Originally Posted by Matteeboy
(Post 11709224)
My son (6) goes to Beavers too; minimal God input, they make stuff, take long walks to the beach, go to farms and so on; we must be lucky I think.
There's a touch of religion at school but it's just about okay; if I saw any evidence of brain washing stuff, I'd have words. It's a good group and a nice bunch of people, but it's run mostly by the local Vicar and her husband, so obviously religion comes into it, Vicar if that's what she should be called :wonder: is great, lovely woman and actually quite normal for someone who "believes" very modern and progressive, you'd never think she was a god botherer especially last week when she turned up at my house in hot pants :lol1: (I sh1t you not), they have a son the same age as my boy and they are friends and in the same class, which is how all this came about. I'm just letting it roll for now as I don't see that I have any other options that don't involve pulling the plug and causing problems for all concerned, it's just the Baptism thing that I'm a little concerned by, although it appears to have been his idea, I suspect the seed was planted and nourished by someone in the beaver camp, which I'm a bit miffed about, but I suppose that's how they get their recruits and to be expected given the environment. |
Baptism will not be his idea. He will have been made to think it is. Can you explore with him what he believes, on what basis, whether he has considered other opinions? Most likely he just fits in there and is going along with it. Took me until I was nearly three times his age to realise that.
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Originally Posted by JTaylor
(Post 11709248)
So you go back just a couple of generations? Is that not a little short sighted?
Hopefully I and all my friends (and our children) are part of that process We see the results of this in the "here and now" The regions of the world that cling to these ridiculous out-dated medieval notions are by and large the same regions that have all the pain and suffering The regions/countries that by and large eschew them have correspondingly less |
Originally Posted by hodgy0_2
(Post 11709259)
Sure, its only natural that subsequent generations leave superstition and fear behind
Hopefully I and all my friends (and our children) are part of that process We see the results of this in the "here and now" The regions of the world that cling to these ridiculous out-dated medieval notions are by and large the same regions that have all the pain and suffering The regions/countries that by and large eschew them have correspondingly less |
Originally Posted by john banks
(Post 11709108)
I don't understand what poor in spirit means as I don't believe we have one. I do believe in evidence based treatment of psychiatric illness based on agreed classifications and the results of randomised controlled trials. Those who mourn might be best not having false comfort from believing something that isn't true. There is trial evidence they do less well with early counselling. Few talk about meekness or mercy much outside church. The heart is a pump. Not sure an imaginary kingdom can be cashed in except to others who believe in it too.
I feel enriched by abandoning the imaginary
Originally Posted by john banks
(Post 11709212)
Teach him to think for himself. Trouble is with at least weekly group influence from faith types using established reinforcement techniques you will have to work very hard indeed.
Peer pressure had me confirmed at 12 (after early christening). Then the charismatics convinced me that was all nought and I was later baptised. My father and I didn't have much contact through my teens. He is an atheist but never tried to influence me. I thought he needed Jesus. What contributed to me realising I was in cloud cookoo land was exposure to A&E whilst a student. Religious and cultural beliefs are excluded from the definition of delusions in psychiatry. That was interesting to discover...
Originally Posted by hodgy0_2
(Post 11709242)
My parents, my wife,s parents
All my life long friends parents for not brainwashing any of us to subject our humanity to a supernatural being And if any of my children did become religious, I would see that as a failure in my parenting/teaching |
Originally Posted by john banks
(Post 11709256)
Baptism will not be his idea. He will have been made to think it is. Can you explore with him what he believes, on what basis, whether he has considered other opinions? Most likely he just fits in there and is going along with it. Took me until I was nearly three times his age to realise that.
He likes dressing up and special occasions, as well as being the centre of attention, which to be fair is probably the most appealing part of the whole thing as far as he's concerned. In reality he's no different to his old man, who was baptised at the ripe old age of 14, I too thought I was missing something when 2 of my cousins were to be baptised and had some sort of strange fear that I wouldn't go to heaven :Suspiciou which by the way is guaranteed now :lol1: so I do get where he's coming from. Also having had both his grandfathers die in the last 4yrs the concept of Heaven has been introduced, it's not really on to explain to a 4yr old that his grandfather died and is in a hole in the ground being eaten by worms and that's that. I have sort of made the decision that there is no point in trying to fight it now by going at it head on, he's also a little young in his mind and I'd like him to stay that way as long as possible. But I shall gradually and gently challenge his mind to get him thinking a little more for himself, as you say. |
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Originally Posted by JTaylor
(Post 11709261)
The pendulum has swung too far back the other way. We were on the cusp of a New Jerusalem! The gross materialism (post-modernism) of the west is a key motivator for the deceived in the part of the world to which you allude.
Facts and faith don't mix |
I'm not worried about what happens to me, we all die one day. I am however concerned that there are people in this world that profess to "do good" yet attempt to bend enquiring young minds to their will, then others of their ilk have the cheek to try and tell me I'm doing something wrong by getting him to think for himself, then offer threats of what may or may not happen to me as a result. I'm pretty sure there are laws against that sort of behaviour. |
Originally Posted by jonc
(Post 11709232)
That to me is biggest pile of bollox with any religion. This take on religion and moral guidance does not determine what is right and wrong for everyone. "God's nature" does not provide and "objective reference point". No one can know God's mind and therefore his nature; you know love because God is love, but you also know evil which also means God is evil. If a warlord massacres thousands of people, it's deemed as evil. What is it when the Christian Crusades killed thousands in the name of God? What is it when God kills thousands of innocent first born offspring? Is God's will good or evil? I'm guessing no one can question the will of God. Objective morals given to us by divine influence does not make it morally right for a religious nut to do what they did in Tunisia.
Religion does not give me any moral guidance or duty or tells me what is right or wrong objectively or subjectively. I love my family and provide all that I can for them, likewise I don't punch someone in the face because they''re in my way either. Religion gives guidance for those who need it. Though salt not kill, love they neighbours etc And this is totally obvious and logical when you understand that the common source for them is man (in the general and literal sense - which obviously explains the whole maleness of the God concept) |
Originally Posted by ditchmyster
(Post 11709273)
:lol1: Nothing like a bit of god fearing to keep folks in line eh!
I'm not worried about what happens to me, we all die one day. I am however concerned that there are people in this world that profess to "do good" yet attempt to bend enquiring young minds to their will, then others of their ilk have the cheek to try and tell me I'm doing something wrong by getting him to think for himself, then offer threats of what may or may not happen to me as a result. I'm pretty sure there are laws against that sort of behaviour. You cannot defeat God! |
Originally Posted by Turbohot
(Post 11709263)
There was a time when quite a few of them were diagnosed with serious mental illnesses. It was an ignorant blunder on their medical healers' part
But humanity moves forward, into the light Hopefully my 100% rejection of the sovereignty of a non existent supernatural being is a small contribution to that progress |
Originally Posted by hodgy0_2
(Post 11709280)
Yes, there was a time when non-believers we burnt at the stake, and beived to be insane
But humanity moves forward, into the light Hopefully my 100% rejection of the sovereignty of a non existent supernatural being is a small contribution to that progress |
Originally Posted by JTaylor
(Post 11709275)
English Standard Version The fear of the LORD is instruction in wisdom, and humility comes before honor. New American Standard Bible The fear of the LORD is the instruction for wisdom, And before honor comes humility. King James Bible The fear of the LORD is the instruction of wisdom; and before honour is humility. Holman Christian Standard Bible The fear of the LORD is what wisdom teaches, and humility comes before honor. International Standard Version The fear of the LORD teaches wisdom, and humility precedes honor. |
Originally Posted by JTaylor
(Post 11709282)
Lucifer the light bringer!
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Originally Posted by hodgy0_2
(Post 11709284)
Sorry, but you are as mad as a box of frogs
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Originally Posted by JTaylor
(Post 11709275)
You'd get much further with me if your entity was Mother Nature as for me that's something I could swallow in the greater scheme of "Life and the Universe" Invisible, all powerful yet tangible. ;) |
Originally Posted by hodgy0_2
(Post 11709283)
Lol, like I said a few pages ago, your product is fear and doubt
English Standard Version The fear of the LORD is instruction in wisdom, and humility comes before honor. New American Standard Bible The fear of the LORD is the instruction for wisdom, And before honor comes humility. King James Bible The fear of the LORD is the instruction of wisdom; and before honour is humility. Holman Christian Standard Bible The fear of the LORD is what wisdom teaches, and humility comes before honor. International Standard Version The fear of the LORD teaches wisdom, and humility precedes honor. |
Originally Posted by ditchmyster
(Post 11709286)
:lol1: I won't be getting into any fights with entities that only exist in other peoples imagination.
You'd get much further with me if your entity was Mother Nature as for me that's something I could swallow in the greater scheme of "Life and the Universe" Invisible, all powerful yet tangible. ;) https://www.scoobynet.com/1019401-go...l#post11638752 |
A father shouldn't want to instil fear into his child.;)
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Originally Posted by ditchmyster
(Post 11709292)
A father shouldn't want to instil fear into his child.;)
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Originally Posted by JTaylor
(Post 11709285)
Out come the ad. homs. Still, ten pages isn't a bad effort.
But you have simply resorted to pathetic sound bites, inevitable really |
Originally Posted by JTaylor
(Post 11709290)
I was once a pantheist. It was part of my journey from anti-theism to Christianity. I talk about it in paragraph six of the post below:
https://www.scoobynet.com/1019401-go...l#post11638752 I'm really glad I'm not inside your head because it must be frightening. :eek: I suppose with all that lot bouncing around in there it's no wonder you're looking for salvation. :) |
Originally Posted by JTaylor
(Post 11709288)
A small child ought to be fearful of their father's anger when they rebel. A good parent presents their child with boundaries and the child ought to be aware that there are consequences should those boundaries be breached. The perfect parent will surely have this in their toolbox. Love has many faces.
I have never instilled fear in my children, which amazingly may explain why I have never ever resorted to physical violence In any shape or form, ever, not even a "slap" But then I wasn't hit as a child nor was my wife, - so it sort of follows So we go "into the light" free of fear |
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