jods

His "Rivers of Blood" Speech

Prophetic?

nixxon

Is there any evidence to suggest he might have been?

nixxon

THose 4 that voted "Yes"...
Why was he right?

tanyatriangles

iTrader: (2)

Those that DIDN'T vote yes, why not? Do you live in towns/areas that are predominantly ethnic? Have you SEEN the weapons the youths carry, and the way that, at the slightest provocation, they arm up and appear in huge gangs, with no mercy? Do you LIVE in an area where the local paper has been gagged by the police about anything to do with immigrant trouble? Have you seen ethnic minorities treated better than the idigenous popoulation, by the police? By the council?

If no to all of these, shut up, please.

cster

Don't live in such an area myself.
Do you see any positive aspects to the ethnic people in your area?

tanyatriangles

iTrader: (2)

Absolutely,.......... but we ignore the negatives at our peril.
We cannot be blinkered with this any more than we can ignore any threat to the country's wellbeing. But mention it, and you are branded "tracist" immediately.

We also need to take a long, hard look at family sizes.

kingofturds

iTrader: (1)

What an extremely ignorant statement. The man had many Asian friends,some of who even tried to defend him at the time. And I'd say he had more intelligence than 90% of the muppets on here.

NotoriousREV

I don't live in an area that is predominantly made up of ethnic minorities. I've seen the weapons, violence and anti-social behaviour of the local (mainly white) youths. Most of these coming from the lower socio-economic groups.

I'd contend that scum can be of any colour and it has very little to do with immigration and more to do with the welfare state.

Enoch Powell was very, very wrong.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Seconded, could not agree more. Excellent post and one many on here who seem to be steered by the likes of the Daily Mail and its sensationalist attitudes towards immigrants could do to take notice of.

The Zohan

Spot on mate.

Tanya, i worked in West Yorkshire, close to Bradford and yes i have seen it first hand!


No i am not a racist and part of the problem is that as sonn as anyone mentions these sorts of subjects in a less than positive light the race card is called!

spireite

Neither do i ,but you will find most of the gun and knife crime in Nottinghamshire is carried out by the black communities.

The Zohan

I agree inasmuch as you see gangs or groups on the same colour is in in the majority of where you live - this is not about black people as such, lets not forget Eastern Europe, some parts of which had a nasty prolonged civil and ethnic/religious war only ending 12+ years or so ago. We have allowed in through the EU and poor immigration and border patrols people who have come from places and values some people bring with them. Countries where women are classed alongside if not valued less that cattle. Where life is pretty much worthless and beatings raping and killings are commonplace - not just talking about Africa as mentioned above.

Some people entering the country have not integrated, have no intention of doing so and live outside of our laws. Speak to any real cop about euro gangs coming into the UK because it is an easy though for example.

We have home grown problems that desperately need dealing with, we aslo have problems froim some we have allowed in and also from the 750,000 -1,000,000 illegals already here.

Two wrongs do not make a right, deal with both, do not confuse the issues!

JimmyBFC

NotoriousREV

And I still say the problems in this country are to do with the welfare state. Not only does it allow home grown scum to proliferate unchecked, it attracts scum from all over the world.

If you're in the is country you should be expected to pay your way. If you're not in work, you should get the bare minimum of support you need until you either find a job or get training to help you get a job. If you don't do either, you get to work on community projects, which in turn will hopefully teach you skills that you can take back into the job market.*

*Assumes you're of working age and in good health

NotoriousREV

Please provide a link to your source of this data

Leslie

He was not racist but was a far seeing man who could see the problems that would come from uncontrolled immigration. Apart from the strain it is putting on our infrastructure and public services there are also the troubles caused by religious fanatics who are deliberately using the situation to advance their own agendas which are of no good for this country.

It is nothing whatsoever to do with racism, which I personally abhor, but purely a matter of common sense when it comes to the real effects on this country.

Les

The Zohan

Agreed re homegrown scum and the welfare society of those who do not need a job because they live off of the state.

so you ingnore/do not regognise the problems caused by poor/no intergration of immigrants and those who do not live by ourt laws within this country then?


It has a lot to do with the welfare state agreed, this is not the be all and end all of it i'm afraid.

spireite

Get your head out the sand

Hoods on the roots of Nottingham gangs

The trail of death sparked by turf war over drugs - Times Online

GANGSTERS INCORPORATED - GANGS OF BRITAIN

BBC NEWS | England | Nottinghamshire | Shadow of gangs over Nottingham

BBC NEWS | England | City 'plagued by gangs and guns'

BBC - Nottingham Students - The Dark Side Of Nottingham

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

I believe that only people who lived and experienced the change in the same era of Enoch or in the same areas/constituency as he did will only have a true objective opinion of seeing the reasons and justification behind his severe concern.

A modern PC term would be to call what we see now as a ethnically diverse, multicultural area. When in truth its not integrated at all; its a diverse, racially and morally segregated area. Some areas have had their identity totally changed purely out of immigration and resettlement. Is that a good thing? Those in Surrey might think on similar lines with the classless neuvo rich taking over

And whilst I'm too young to recall the change of face in Birmingham and Wolverhampton, I do remember the change in Dudley and especially its surrounding outskirt areas in which I live changing. And when I mean change I mean settlement of immigrants in those areas as a result of government policies on distribution and housing of immigrants.

The areas have changed vastly; one outskirt suburban high-street was once a typical black country town; hardware shops, greengrocers, post office, butchers, banks (3), greasy spoon cafe, couple of pubs, clothes shops etc. Now its a string of Indian restaurants (actually Pakistani cuisine) (over ten of them! ), Pizza takeaway, couple of kebab shops, independent mobile phone store, cheque cashing/western union transfer shop, a Spar and a few private hire taxi companies. Everything else has gone, barring one bank, and one hardware shop. That's not a town any more, it's an outdoor food hall. It's also the only town in the council district to have free car parking on its council owned car parks, its a local hub to obtain drugs and a council dumping ground for homing people at the low end of the poverty scale. Its the latter government and council social involvements I feel that is the trigger cause in changing that area; It wasn't local economy, as the area backs on to a industrial mini-expanse, of which even today remains as a fairly stable hub of business (and constant rich pickings for the tea leafs; I can vouch for that personally).

Who is at fault? Mainly the council and government; lack of monitoring, lack of control and blinkered policies. It all started with the council housing built in the mid-late 1970's. That housing was used as a social misfit dumping ground. And that changed the area; it drove out home owners, it drove out the businesses in the highstreet. The area fell in to mass social and commercial decline. And its never fully recovered since; I have have seen it change totally through the 80's and 90's.

I have to make it clear its not the immigrants directly at fault: This is not a racial issue; it just happens that to be that people migrating and dumped in the area were of other races. Although one cannot deny that the mass "dumping of immigrants" policies and lack of control of immigrant settlement by council and government alike that has caused racial tension in that area.

This is not a singular story; My grandparents of both sides of the family have similar stories; both raised and lived in a nearby area that was transformed by the building of high-rise flats in the 1960's. They were all adamant that this housing changed the faces of the area to negative effect. By the mid 1970's our whole families ended up moving out the area for these reasons.

I feel this is exactly what Enoch was on about; not the race of the people moving into an area, but their moral and social values being so different that it alienated the people already living there. In effect, it was the policies that Enoch was against that was fuelling the racism in these areas. If there was more control and monitoring on distribution of immigrants moving to "immigrant hot spots" across the country and better social and educational standards to ensure they lived to the same morals and standards as the local population, then integration may have had a better chance of happening.

The problem is what we have now; how does one turn this around? I personally think its impossible to repair that. But what is possible is focus and control on current immigration numbers, distribution and settlement. And providing far more educational and social focus, forcing correct moral codes and standards upon everyone.

jods

Couldn't have put it better myself

NotoriousREV

But this isn't confined to immigrants. There are local ghettos 5 minutes from where I live where the white population are almost tribal and live by a seperate moral code and and some cases do not live by the laws of this country. However, these people are a small minority. The same goes for ethnic minorities. Not all of them are law breaking, knife weilding maniacs intent on destroying the moral fabric of this country.

Where groups of people live together in reasonably high density with low educational standards (which leads to poor employability), lack of support (either by local government, law enforcement or local population which leads to low self-esteem) and a lack of jobs then you inevitably get crime. Some immigrants are delivered straight into these conditions, unfortunately.

Picture the scene: you arrive in a foreign country, pretty much peniless and escaping a poor quality of life. You've escaped to find a better quality of life. You don't speak the language well (if at all) and when you start looking for jobs all you can find is heavy manual labour for minimum wage (or less) and a healthy dollop of prejudice. How long do you last before you start finding solace with people of your own kind. How long before you start taking the dodgier money making opportunities that come along?

I think people on SN forget that compared to many in the world, they're from a pretty priviledged background.

This doesn't mean I'm ignoring the fact that some immigrants do arrive with no intention of integration or even with extremist views, but claiming all of this country's social problems are as a direct result of uncontrolled immigration is utter tosh and in line with people who believe that there's a paedophile lurking in every bush.

NotoriousREV

My head isn't in the sand. I just prefer to debate facts and not opinions.

For example, fom Home Office figures the break down of percentage of people who have committed any offence (by ethnic grouping):

White: 42%
Mixed: 39%
Asian or Asian British: 21%
Black or Black British: 28%
Other: 23%

If you jyst want to talk about violent crime (i.e. assaults, that type of thing)

White: 26%
Mixed: 28%
Asian or Asian British: 13%
Black or Black British: 16%
Other: 18%

So a higher percentage of white folk have committed violent crime than Asians have of any type of offence, for example.

The country's fcuked and the finger of blame is pointing the wrong way. This isn't 1930's Germany. It isn't the immigrants fault any more than i was the Jews' fault back then. And unfortunately, it seems those of us that can do something about it are happy enough to shirk the responsibility and blame the first scapegoat that comes along.

The Zohan

do these figures take into account the race make-up of the country, i understand that 92% approx of the population is 'white' for example. in which case the figures quoted are meaningless/misleading at best.

In any case the issue is also to do with immigration, split out the non British 'whites' as well if we are talking immigration
Still even

NotoriousREV

They don't need to take into account the race make up of the country, it is the percentage of each ethnic group that has committed offences, are you perhaps misunderstanding these figures as the percantage of crime committed by each group?

astraboy

Correct.
I live in central london and the streets are awash with scum and gangs. Whilst said scum come in a multitude of colours and creeds, they all come from the same council estates.

Turning over the council estates to the RAF and using them as a bombing ranges would do more than immigration control would.
astraboy.
astraboy.

The Zohan

Yes, had misunderstood, however, the figures do not take into account the number of non UK whites, the influence of EU immigration and the numbers that have entered the UK, as i have said many times it is not colour so much as where they are from and to split it out to see if/what effect this has on the figures.

of the 750,000-1,000,00 illegals we do not know how many are white, of the EU immigrants we do not know what percentage of crime they have or have not committed yet they are lumped in with the UK white population.

As i have said earlier there are gangs in and coming into the UK of EU whites who only come here to commit crimes.

As i keep repeating, this is not about colour of skin. Certain parts of Northampton are no go areas at nigh if you are not from certain parts of Eastern Europe and there are regular fights between factions/religious based, post the war in their old countries some 13+ years ago. That would be white on white crime wouldn't it yet nothing to do with the white UK population, you see my point.

NotoriousREV

I see your point but disagree with it. These gangs are a tiny minority of a tiny minority. It's like the panic over swine flu. A handful of people get a new strain of flu and there's panic in the streets, all conveniently forgetting that 20,000 people die in the US alone from "normal" flu.

Given that we've just passed the D-Day memorial, maybe we should all remember that our grandparents fought, often with their lives, against facism.

Yes, immigration needs to be properly controlled but it is NOT the root of all of this country's social problems. Do you see my point?

The Zohan

there are maybe 1,000,000 illegals which makes up 1 in 60 of the population though!

This is not about fascism as such, wanting the country to be living under one law and conforming to the same high ideals, not committing crimes or blowing each other up because of religion is just not fascism is is common sense.

Wanting to remove those who come here to cause trouble, those who do not come to conform to our way of life or our rules or those who are are here illegally is not fascism, allowing communities within communities allows fascism and the BNP a talking and rallying point though.

Our home grown problems with white trash is a seperate problem and not to be lumped together, we need to tackle both equally hard and fast!

The welfare state that should be there just to support those who have fallen on hard times is being abused by the home grown lazy and also is seen as a beacon to those outside the UK and then travel often 1000's of mile to get here to use/abuse our system - this is a problem that does need dealing with - agreed!
IMHO of course

NotoriousREV

I agree with most of what you said there, Paul. But Enoch Powell was not talking about illegal immigrants, he was talking about all immigrants.