milo

is anyone here a pro gambler? i.e. that you bet as your main (or even sole) income?

if so, what do u bet on and how long have u been doing it?

do u have any other side business ventures that are less risky, and if so what?

what do u have as provision for if things go **** up?

thx

LG John

Not yet, but planning on it one day. With any form of gambling luck is a feature and you should (obviously) only play if you can get the better of it more often than not. In other words you have to have an edge that is greater than the value of the bet(s). Regularly taking 3:1 on your money when you are a 4:1 dog will have you broke in no time. But there are many ways people make regular money from gambling and as you know i make money from poker. I know others that do sports betting successfully, others that trade, etc.

To do it right you have to be in a position where luck can't feature. In otherwords you have to be able to sustain an 'event' that is so improbable you'll not experience it in your lifetime.

If/when I have the following amount of money I will go pro-poker:

1) Mortgage of £73k is paid off thus reducing my monthly out-goings
2) £25k in high interest accounts (being a years wages in case it all goes wrong)
3) A £40k poker bankroll which I'd use to play the £2/5NL tables. Such a table has a max £500 buy in so a roll of £40k gives me 80x the sit-down. If I go through that lot and bust out then I'm simply not a winning player and should quite because its impossible* to be playing well and lose that many sit-down through luck!

*Not actually impossible just very very very very unlikely

The key thing is bankroll though. You absolutely must have money that is purely for the purpose of playing your game and you must never risk more than a small percentage of it at any time. I personally believe though that you should have 6 months of 'wages' at least set aside so that if it all goes wrong you have plenty of time to get yourself sorted out.

Interestingly I was watching a guy I know from the casino playing $15/30 NL holdem on Ladbrokes today (his name is Mafews). The lad is 19, passionate about poker and a sound guy. He sat down with $3000 and 3 hours later had turned it into $26,000!! He plays for a living and whilst he won't exactly tell us we've speculated he has made in excess of £130,000 from poker in the last year.

My brother plays poker for a living but he has the advantage of still living at home. He's certainly had a tough time of it but is keeping his head above water and I expect that he'll go from strength to strength as he is certainly able. That said, he couldn't support himself at the moment from poker if he wasn't still at home - he needs much more money as back up in order to do that.

chaos.

SB, I have got the grasps of the game and I have been playing everyday, only on practice mode, even so, I still go absolutly mentle if I think I have an unbeatable hand and put all my cash on it, I have a sore throat from shouting at the top of my voice as loud as I can when I lose, it's too frustrating.

I don't know how I'd cope actually betting real money, I'd end up lobbing my lappy out of my winder

Good luck

Pub time oclock now byye.

Jap2Scrap

Where has practice games? I'd love to test my skill with no risk.

paul-s

yea same here, i would like a bit of roulette.

any sites ?

milo

nice info, thanks saxo boy

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

SB, based on your financial calculations I am way past ready to start my career, just need to learn poker now !

Seriously, I am intersted in learning the game, not a gambler really, just for the fun of it, whats the best way to learn ?

LG John

The best way to learn is to play some 'play for fun' tables on some of the poker sites. William hill definately have play for fun and I'm pretty sure Ladbrokes do as well. However, they aren't a good test of your 'skill' as try as you might you play differently when its not real money and this is especially the case of other players. Some players will just not fold at play for fun so its difficult to make any skill you have count for much.

Paul roulette is a game for fun not profit. You cannot beat the wheel no matter what you do or try in the long run. If you don't believe me search for a thread I created which milo contributed heavily to from about a year ago (search under 'roulette'). I examined systems to beat the wheel and it was demonstraited that whilst I could reduce the casino's edge to a theoretical 1% (not an actual 1% since the odds are fixed) or so I could not beat it. For money making purposes you should only play games where the judgement of another human being is a factor. If you play any game that has fixed parametres and where no human judgement features you will lose money in the long run or else that game would not exist as casinos would have lost money on it and abandoned it.

LG John

Oh and now is the time to be a professional gambler/poker player, etc. The expansion of broadband has vastly changed the face of poker and other gambling games creating great potential but the government isn't stupid and I'd bet they will find away to cash in on it all. At the moment there is no tax but I doubt that will last and with taxation in place it'll be very hard to be that much better than other players that you can beat both the tax and the casino 'rake'.

Interestingly though a part time internet poker player would likely get through more hands of poker in a year than the professionals of old pre-internet. This is why I know a 19yo making £100k a year at it - simply the oppertunity for rapid progression through the poker learning curve now exists.

milo

yes i remember the roulette thread, that was good.

i spent quite a lot of time since then doing the calculations, and there is no way to beat it. no way at all.

instead i have spent since the beginning of the year on horses and have been consistently making 1k/week so far. it is surprising how mathematical it is. if i had more time to research, id be willing to risk more to make more. hence my reason for starting this thread.

amazinggrace

Where are you Milo? Come to our new LBO, its a bit quiet so im looking for punters! I make a nice coffee.

milo

im in cambridge atm, altho if i go pro gambling i will sell up and move somewhere much cheaper to live like cyprus.

LG John

I see and well done on your results so far. As I say, what you are doing is applying an 'edge' but luck still features unless you are spread betting which I doubt based on what you've said. For this reason you need a bankroll so that when you go through the bad times (which WILL happen) you can weather the strorm.

Having a bankroll is a strange thing. I'm a tight c*nt and will moan about spending £20 on a round in an expensive pub yet earlier that day I'll have lost £200 in one hand of poker and not battered an eyelid because as a percentage of my bankroll its not even worth worrying about.

Ray_li

iv spent some time at Star city birmingham casino but never played much but would love to learn how to play not just taking chances but using a bit a skill.

imlach

Just a word of caution.

Keep reading about the UK's soaring gambling additions, and the severe money issues it is causing. Saw an article about it again today, but can't find it now. Things can start off small, but start losing, and some people start betting BIGGER to make up the losses....before you know where you are, you're hooked, in debt, and on a dangerous road.

Roulette - as discussed in that thread last year, in the long term, you will NEVER make a profit. No-one believed me at the time, but it's really just simple maths to work that one out.

Poker - I accept this requires skill, but also has an element of luck. Even the top poker pros have serious money issues from time to time. If it IS pure skill, why have some gone bankrupt?

A gambling addiction combined with internet dealing, credit cards, ease of topping up cash, etc etc can so so easily lead to debt issues.....

Not at all saying you're addicted Kenny, but you have given a perfect scenario of just how easily thousands of £££ can be blown by a typical online gambler without a worry....

As I said, just my 2p worth

Apparition

T'other half is well into Betfair.
You can gamble on just about anything on there and its all against other gamblers, no bookies involved.
It sounds terribly complicated, terms like laying a draw in footie and laying a horse not to win etc. He's constantly trying to explain it to me but I'm now asking him to discuss it with the hand 'coz the face just ain't taking it in!
They have a poker table on there, he was invited to be an in house player the other night at £6 per hour. He's not lost loads ~~~~~yet. Seems to be able to keep his head above water . My daughter's boyfriend has done so well, he's managed to bank some, and hand over some for her to spend on herself and on baby.
If you want any further details, PM me for Steve's email and I'll put you in touch.

imlach

Betfair is a fresh approach because, as you said, it allows you to 'lay'. ie, you can bet on an event NOT happening, rather than an event happening.

ie, in horse racing, traditionally you place a bet on a certain horse either winning or coming 2nd/3rd etc. With Betfair, you can bet that a horse WON'T win....the odds are more or less the opposite of betting on it winning....

ie, betting a winner which is 2/1 on would give a return of 200% (higher return as lower chance it will win).
laying a winner which is 2/1 on would give a return of 50% (lower return as higher chance it won't win).

milo

thats exactly how ive been making 1k/week to date

f1sh4u

I have been learning poker for around a year now, i know i still have a lot to learn, but i think a good way to teach yourself how to play is to play some of the sit and go tournaments.

I play on the bet365 poker client, and the sit and go tournaments can be as cheap as 50p buy in. That gets 1000 chips, the same as everyone else at the table, then the tournament starts and you play untill someone has all the chips. I think the advantage of the tournaments is that you can never lose loads, just the buy in that you paid.

I think doing this has helped me to learn the game anyway.

kingofturds

iTrader: (1)

ah best time of the day

LG John

Very good point, tournaments are a cheap way to learn poker although they require a different strategy and approach. The advantage is though that you can easily control your losses.

I'm nothing like addicted and never could be as its just not in my nature. I'm don't even have a gambling nature and don't see poker as gambling. To me its a second income that has 'risks' but in the longrun its not gambling because I WILL get paid. I keep my wages which fund my lifestyle and my poker bankroll which allows me to play poker totally seperated. My wages JUST fund my lifestyle so £20 on a 4 drinks would p!ss me off. £200 is nothing compaired to my bankroll so not worth worrying about as its just a natural downward swing.

Many people will want to jump on some of the statements in the above paragraph and no doubt say I'm addicted and in denial, etc. Don't waste your time please cause I'm not. I've actually not played much poker in the last month and I'm not missing it, I'm not needed to play it. My mate sometimes wanders on scoobynet for a lurk and he phoned me up in histerics cause he read a previous thread on here where everyone thought I was a gambler, etc. Yes poker is 90% losing players and there are a lot of people that play it who have real problems but there is that other 10% and its a category I firly fall into. As does Tiggs who himself could make as much playing poker as he earns if he could be bothered to (his words).

So my final advice is that if you have something gambling related that can make you money then do it BUT be careful and have lots of funds set aside solely for the purpose of playing that game/event

Tiggs

my advice.......stay away from poker!

its like any profession...the best make money, but unlike most jobs the rest dont just earn very little - they loose £££££££££££££££££!!!!

it cost me 6 months of work and many thousands to get to a point where i could make a regular profit....now i do i would never go pro as its to boring. Sitting in a casino/club 3 or 4 nights a week is griim enough...to play online fulltime would be nothing but a chore.

if you do want to do it THE MOST IMPORTANT thing is either treat is as a hobby that COSTS YOU MONEY or monitor your hourly rate (like any job)

too many people sit on sit n gos all day with $20 buyins and regard it a great day when they are up $200.......................if you think £100 a day to sit in front of a monitor is good money.....they you are nuts!

the only proper money is in big buy games or cash......i play a lot of $100/200 heads up games that can be done in 2 - 40 mins.....that about the only thing i do online (other than satalites)...casinos have much better players and therefore are easier to play against.

T

imlach

Tiggs sums it up well. It IS gambling, pure & simple. Don't care how much you guys go on about skill, there is still luck involved, which makes it gambling.

Try to do it as a full time profession, and the risks are higher. You HAVE to then make a certain amount per week/month/year, and the danger of risking higher & higher amounts to stop your losses come into the equation more.

As I said, even the BEST pro poker players are caught out and some end up in a financial mess.

My advice? Channel your energy into setting up in the gambling business....THAT is where the money is, not being an ordinary punter

Wmscooby

iTrader: (24)

www.888.com

have a free site for practise

mark

Tiggs

You cant test your skill for free....its like saying you will go down the park and kick a coke can around to see how you would fair in the FA Cup.

There are VERY few pros making decent money...those that are in the UK get it from sponsership deals via sites that are happy to put big name players in games as it makes their site more money.....even looking at the big US players...people like Negranu pay $300k in entry fees to tourneys let alone what they blow in cash games!

Its no surprise that people like Phil Gorden who made $100m in tech shares does well....he has no money at risk (no relevant money anyway!)

Fast_Blue_Scooby

Yes I am a "pro gambler" but I prefer not to use the word gambler.
A pro sports investor is the term I would rather use.

It is all about value, if you have value then you will win in the long term.

Take a spin of a fair coin, if I offered you odds of evens for heads, would you have a bet?

If I offered you 4/6 for heads would you have a bet?

If I offered you 5/4 for heads would you have a bet?

Only the pros would take the bet at 5/4. But there is plenty of people who would bet at evens and even more mugs out there who would bet at 4/6. This is how the bookies make their money, by offering odds way below the true odds.

I see it every day, the likes of the big bookies offering terrible odds on the favs at horse racing. And their shops are full of mugs betting at those prices.

If I value a horse at 2/1 and I see the odds of 5/2, I steam in with a large bet. Even if the horse loses, I am happy that I secured a value bet. As you can appreciate, betting horses at 5/2 when they have a true 2/1 chance of winning means that in the long run, I will make 16.66% profit on my investment.

Back to the coin example, mug punters who take the 4/6 may win after the first spin, in fact they could win again on the next spin but in the long run, they will lose 16.66% of their money invested.

So if you can secure value, you will win.

How do you work out value?

Well you have to keep on top of the sports that you bet in. Be able to make a book on the horse race or the game in question. Be confident in your abilities, the patience to overcome losing runs, I have actually had over 70 losing bets in a row! But I have had days where 10 out of 12 bets have won. Keep records, analyse your past bets and continue to work hard to maintain your edge. Recording your bets will in the long run prove whether you do have an edge or not. If your records indicate that you are winning in the long run, then you are doing something right, so keep at it and try and improve. If you are losing money, find out why, where are you going wrong, where you stats wrong when working out markets, did you keep to your staking plans, do they need to be changed. The key is the ability to always question yourself and be prepared to dig deep for the answers.

At the moment, the average odds I bet at are just over 6/1, my current strike rate is 1 in 5 which gives a 16.66% profit on my turnover.

Where can value bets be had?

Well surprisingly they can be had at the major bookies! But once you have proved to them that you have an edge, they shut you down. Disgraceful really considering the amount of mug money they take in every day. But the art of bookmaking has been replaced by faceless accountants at these bookies! The likes of skybet, tote, hills, bet365, stanley, stan james, sportingodds etc will not entertain punters who dare to have a win or two.

The answer to our prayers comes in the form of the exchanges, in particular betfair where you can compete with other people to lay or back your bets. There is value to be found in both backing and laying.

Good luck to anyone who wishes to take it up full time, or should I say good value!!

Ted Maul

The way to win is to remain unemotional about the result, and then it's no fun anymore

Ted Maul

all the big bookies are using the feeds into betfair to make money now.

LG John

This is the exact principle of poker and why bankroll is so important. Luck features but if you have a well calculated bankroll its very unlikely you'll bust out and that is based on simple maths nothing else. As FBS says, I've had 1000s of hands that I've lost £££s at poker but deep down I've been happy about because I got my money in when I had the best value and in the long run it will make me money. It can't not. Poker is even more clear cut in may ways that FBS 'value betting'. If I get my chips in at 2:1 when my opponent has a 4:1 flush draw those odds are absolutely fixed in my favour and will work out like that in the long run. As FBS said he has to 'value' a horse himself with requires a degree of skill and judgement - at least when my opponent turns his flush draw over I know that my skll in putting him on such a hand has played its roll but now it is pure maths based on a 52 card deck. As long as I don't start to pitch myself against better standards of player I will always make money at poker. I'm like a roulette wheel in that the odds work out to me having an edge over the majority of players I play and no matter what luck does in the short-medium term in the long term there can be only one outcome.

I mean no disrespect to contributors and readers of this thread but very few people understand this concept and I certainly didn't even until I was quite far into my poker playing.

Tiggs a lot of the reason a lot of the big pro's don't make big money/money at all is because they play other pro's day in day out. Think of it this way: At the moment I'm the 1st division regular team player of the poker world in that I'm good at football (poker) and can compete with people in my division. However, when I play my game I play down at the local field against the local pub team such that week in week out I hose on them with ease! I could try to 'advance my career' (so to speak) by going proper pro and playing in the Premiership but its a cut-throat market up there and its better (for poker purposes) to play the game I can beat. Many pro's would make a LOT more money if they'd stop playing other pro's and just rip seven shades of **** out of online players or there local backstreet card room.

You can approach poker (or most forms of gambling games) in two ways: 1) to be the best 2) to make the most money. You have to be especially gifted to achieve both and with the exception of the likes of Doyle Brunson few players are the best and have made the most. I'd love for you guys to turn on challenge TV in a few years and say to the wife, 'that guy playing is saxo boy from that scoobynet site that I spend all my time on' but I'd MUCH rather in 2 years I post up a picture of the 911 I bought outright with poker money despite nobody in 'poker circles' having much of a clue who I am.

Hope that all makes sense

imlach

Umm...so why don't they????? You're telling me that ALL the pros are just in it for the game, and not money? Don't believe it for a minute.

It's either because :

1) It'd take FAR too much time to make a decent amount on amateur sites.
2) The owners of said site would ban them from that site, much like bookies who ban people who are too successful. Once word got around, who'd want to play poker on a site where people knew a pro was mopping up ALL the profits? Not good business for the poker website.